Not judging, just curious

[m keith]

Maybe the point is being missed. Like when our tax dollars are being used to treat Aids and such. Why should I have to pay???

Your ignorance is exceeded only by your bigoted sense of self-righteousness. Perhaps know-nothing “moral” crusaders haven’t yet realized that you are on the losing side of history. One day, when we as Americans reflect on these times, we will take note that some of us stood up for the rights of ALL - and some of us, sadly, did not.

 

[CatheNated]

Curious mind wants to know

Not that I want to get into some huge biblical debate , but for us "Christians", Jesus fulfilled the OT prophecy and the NT is what we adhere too.

But not all "Christians" adhere to only the New Testamant. Every verse that I've seen used as an argument against gay marriage is from the Old Testament. Does anyone know any NT verses that oppose gay marriage?

 

[amyg]

For everyone who cannot understand the concept of homosexuality... can you flip the idea over and imagine a society where the majority could not understand heterosexuality and consequently believed you chose to be heterosexual, that you were somehow strange or that you were immoral simply because you were attracted to the opposite sex?

If you can do that for a moment: put yourself in your same shoes but in a different world--be honest with yourself-- does it feel good? Does it reflect the kind of society you hope for?

It doesn't feel anything close to "good" or anything close to "decent" to me.

 

[Jaffas]

I've tried very hard to stay out of this but I feel the original question has not been answered. I understand why some are against homosexuality for religious reasons. I understand the they believe it is wrong and immoral. I respect their right to believe that. Their churches have every right to not perform same sex marriages. I do not understand why they cannot allow other people to feel differently and how it affects them in any way if people they do not even know enter into a legal contract that they disagree with. So I guess my question to those of you that oppose gay marriage is - How does the fact that many of my very close gay friends happen to be married, that's right their marriages remain legal even after prop 8 passed, affect YOU personally? Really how is it about you at all? I know you think it's wrong but how does it affect you life or your marriage in anyway whatsoever?

 

[Liann]

I think there are really two questions here Gabrielle - 1. Do "you" believe it is morally right? and 2. Would "you" actually stand in the way of those wanting to do it. I think there are probably a lot of Christians who personally think it is wrong, but do not oppose those people making up their own mind about whether to do it or not. Just because we do not agree with it, doesn't mean we are all crusading to keep it from happening. It doesn't bother me, it's their life. I didn't vote against it obviously. I probably wouldn't if it came up here in PA either.

 

[tneah]

"Maybe the point is being missed. Like when our tax dollars are being used to treat Aids and such. Why should I have to pay???"

Oh dear god...thank you Keith for your eloquent and fair response to this...*shakes head* I honestly just try to live by the golden rule.."Do unto others, as you would have done unto you"..whether that is too simple and burying my head in the sand, I don't know, but its always worked for me and what I feel is "right" in my gut and in my heart.

 

[snowbelle]

Responding to the original post's comments about the particular case being currently sensationalized by the media...if a biological female (with surgical/hormonal/appearance adjustments to look male) is a partner to another female, they should have the same GOVERNMENT/LEGAL/STATE rights as any other couple that chooses to enter into a government-recognized union, including two that look (and/or are) the same gender, two heterosexuals, etc (assuming consenting adults of legal age). If that particular couple has government benefits that are not available to other couples, I don't think that is fair or right (my OPINION, which I am not preaching to anyone, or judging those who have a different one). It sounds like the option of a "Civil Union" is currently available to non-heterosexual couples, but does NOT offer equal benefits or the same legal status as...the "M" word. (I am not an expert in this area, that is just what I gathered from other posts).

Notice I have carefully avoided the term "marriage" so far, because I think that is where the problem is. The same word is used by the state and the church, but in reality these are (or should be) two different unions. If two adults wish to be joined and abide by the guidelines of a particular religion, they should be FREE to choose that, just as that religion should be FREE to disapprove it if their rules are not met. Those who don't like that can choose a different religion that fits, or choose none at all. Any of these people should also be FREE to choose a STATE-defined union, that has EQUAL benefits to all couples signing THAT contract. You can pick state, church, both, or neither, and still be a loving couple. People may want one or both "officially" recognized unions due to social custom, financial/tax advantage, medical/child rights, personal beliefs, or many other reasons. Just as church and state are supposed to be separate in this wonderful, free America of ours, the official unions/contracts made through those organizations should be completely separate.

If this much of the "controversy" could be agreed on (and it really seems very simple to do so, except for those who feel a need to impose their own beliefs on others and don't respect others' rights and freedom of belief)...the only challenge would probably be in who gets the term "marriage", because it is the one with a long history and meaning attached to it that conveys so much more that the others (union, joining, partnership, etc). For instance, if only religious unions can use the term "marriage", and others have to say, "we're state-unioned" instead of "we're married", obviously they won't like this (due to long custom of meaning). Perhaps the best compromise is for all official documents to use either the full term "Religious Marriage" or "State Marriage" (or some other distinct terms), then all those couples can still correctly use the word "married" in conversation.

 

[Jaffas]

I think there are really two questions here Gabrielle - 1. Do "you" believe it is morally right? and 2. Would "you" actually stand in the way of those wanting to do it. I think there are probably a lot of Christians who personally think it is wrong, but do not oppose those people making up their own mind about whether to do it or not. Just because we do not agree with it, doesn't mean we are all crusading to keep it from happening. It doesn't bother me, it's their life. I didn't vote against it obviously. I probably wouldn't if it came up here in PA either.

That's why I ask the question. I know and understand that many people, Christian or not, believe same sex marriage is morally wrong. And those who are like you I get, I'd put you in the "live and let live" category But for those of you who are crusading against same sex marriage I repeat my question. How does someone else's marriage affect you in any way? Why do you care so much? Are you trying to save their souls? I don't mean to be judgmental I honestly just don't get it.

 

[booboo39]

Just my two cents here. Wether being gay or the institution of gay marriage, most religions deem it a sin. I was raised a catholic and went to parochial school. I am no longer a catholic and would not want to be part of any organization that judges and denies people their rights. I found far too much BS in catholicism. The bible has always been used to deny and condemn other's rights and beliefs. Zealots who scream about how the bible states that homosexuality is wrong are dangerous. I wonder how they explain away the mention in the bible of Lot in the cave with his daughter?? Does that then make incest ok?? Don't misconstrue what I am saying as that I don't believe in the bible or that it is BS. I sent all of my kids to a catholic school simply because I don't have faith in the public school system and I still believe and agree with some of the tenets. I am just saddened to see how the bible and organized religion are used to justify oppression. They are just a smokescreen for ignorance.
booboo39

 

[Vee]

In India, because we have so many religions, we have the option of "civil marriage"

Religions can contradict one another when it comes to marriage. So a couple has the choice like Snowbelle said to have both a religious marriage, and a civil marriage or choose just one.

Inter-religious couples often choose a civil marriage and then a ceremony of some sort that is outside the formal church/temple/mosque which is blessed by a priest who has open views.

Unfortunately civil marriage is not yet available to homosexuals.

In India, sodomy is a crime even if consensual, punishable with 10 years imprisonment. This does not come from religious tradition. It was inherited from British Law. India was a British colony. The laws have been changed in Britain but in many of the ex-colonies, the antiquated law still holds. No politician in India wants to touch this topic. So the legal system turns a blind eye to consensual same-sex relationships. In urban India homosexuality is openly practised, but in most parts of the country, persecution is common.

Hindu religous texts make no reference to homosexuality as wrong, although non-consensual sex or seducing a young virgin (of either sex) outside marriage (which I interpret to mean below age of consent) is explicitly stated as wrong. Hindu religious leaders interpret the scriptures both condemning and accepting homosexality. Sadly most interpretations condemn. The kamasutra depicts homosexuality/bisexuality as normal.

 

[Liann]

TeTe, I can't believe you said that.

Our Genetic makeup does not imply a birth defect, not anymore than my blue eyes are a birth defect or one brown eye and one blue eye.

Quoted from Medline Plus.

Birth Defects
A birth defect is a problem that happens while a baby is developing in the mother's body. Most birth defects happen during the first 3 months of pregnancy. One out of every 33 babies in the United States is born with a birth defect.
A birth defect may affect how the body looks, works or both. Some birth defects like cleft lip or neural tube defects are structural problems that can be easy to see. To find others, like heart defects, doctors use special tests. Birth defects can vary from mild to severe. Some result from exposures to medicines or chemicals. For example, alcohol abuse can cause fetal alcohol syndrome. Infections during pregnancy can also result in birth defects. For most birth defects, the cause is unknown.
Some birth defects can be fatal. Babies with birth defects may need surgery or other medical treatments. Today, doctors can diagnose many birth defects in the womb. This enables them to treat or even correct some problems before the baby is born.


Janie

TeTe wasn't saying that it was a birth defect. She was showing disgust that your post implied it was. By saying that perhaps medicine would someday be able to "fix" the gene that causes homosexuality (and comparing it to a list of mental and medical disorders), it implied that there was something wrong with the gene in the first place - hence "defect". I don't think you meant to say that obviously, it was just the way it came across.

p.s. The first part of TeTe's post was actually a quote from your post, not her own words. The quotations marks just got left off somehow.

 

[dani21496]

stoning people so we don't do that either. Times change. We don't stone people in this country anymore. Once upon a time the Catholic church recommended beating one's wife at least once a week to make sure she didn't get it in her head that she was an equal to a man.

That is crazy!!!!

Things would be a lot better (IMO) if the rules of marriage were left to the churches, and the rules of 'civil union' and domestic partner rights (and adoption) were left to government.

I agree with this.

 

[moni_stout]

Just have to add here, that I am married and religion had nothing to do with it. I was married in a hotel by a registrar with no mention of god or any other deity ... My marriage was definitely NOT a religious service. I am definitely married though.

Same here. There is and was absolutely nothing religious about my marriage. And it is considered a marriage not a civil union.

Monica

 

[dani21496]

A man should not be allowed to marry another man, nor a woman another woman. You know why??? BECAUSE JESUS CHRIST SAYS SO!! HE IS OUR ULTIMATE AUTHORITY AND TO WHOM WE WILL HAVE TO GIVE AN ACCOUNT AFTER OUR LAST BREATH. It doesn’t matter what we think is “fair” or not, the issue is what God’s word says about sin and obedience!! HE gives us life and the freedoms we so thoroughly enjoy, including the freedom to “argue” this matter. But HE also gives us instructions in His word called the Bible which clearly spells out our sinful, pitiful natures in desperate need of a savior – JESUS CHRIST!! Come on people, He died for you!! And for what?? So we can deny Him and speak lies rather than Truth? “They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.” (Romans 1:25). He is not an evil God wanting to deny us pleasures. However, without Him we will “pleasure” ourselves to death –literally!! “The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord!” (Romans 6:23)” News flash, it’s NOT about what we want, it’s about what HE commands. By the way, if you have a problem with what I’ve posted, take it to God since it’s His word I’ve shared. No sense in lashing out at me, I’m just the messenger.
“In the beginning, God made them male and female…and God blessed them and said to them (the male and FEMALE), “Be fruitful and increase in number..” (Genesis 1:27-28)

But for Adam no suitable helper was found…..Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman, for she was taken out of man. "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.” (Genesis 1:23-24)

“If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable” (Lev 20:13)
“Because of this (people exchanging God’s truths for LIES –see verse 25), God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.” (Romans 1:26-27)

There are MANY other scriptures that speak out against homosexuality/sin in the Bible. This is not about “Catholicism” or “religion” or what the government thinks we should do. It never was and God never intended it to be. It is about a relationship with God’s son, Jesus Christ, who died for the sins of the world (yours and mine!) so that our relationship with God could be restored! “For God so loved the world that He gave His only son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life” (John 3:16). STAND UP FOR THE TRUTH!!

Here is the truth, and I pray that you read it and believe it and seek Him now:



But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:21-26)

...and reference my original post.

Your God and interpretation of the Bible is not the same God or interpretation that everyone else follows. That does not make your right or wrong. But this DOES mean that you don't get to impose your belief system on others.
This thread was mostly civil up until now. But, as predicted, this post crosses the line, and I'm checking out.
Have a good one every body.

I agree with melimcn 100%.

lifeverlasting78's post was very harsh, very pushy, judgemental and offensive. It turned my stomach. I'm a Christian and have been my whole life, but when I see posts like this, I believe this kind of talk only angers, offends and pushes people away. I believe there are nicer ways of getting someone's point across and delivering the "message".

I do somewhat see both sides (though NOT the side that takes every word in the Bible as the truth and bludgeons others with those words).
I think the problem may come down to the word "mariage."

If proposition opposed "civil union," I'd hope most people would vote against it.

Making "civil unions" legal could leave the way open for individual churches to decide on their own whether they would perform mariages between two people of the same sex.

Agreed

 

[baylian]

*grabs popcorn and waits for show to begin*

BAHAHAHAHA - and mild duds to boot . . . .

I am staying out of this one.

 

[baylian]

Although one thought - it was VOTED on and it didn't pass in three states (CA, FL and one other).

VOTED on by the people. That should be the end of it

OK - out to go jog in the cold FL weather. Cold relative to MI where I live most of the time.

 

[toastythemosty67]

Are you saying AIDS only effects homosexuals??? Or was brought on by homosexuals???

And I don't know how our tax $$$$ would pay for treating AIDS, last time I checked we didn't have free health care in the US.

You get the point though. Most know how Aids began and it wasn't from little girls sharing lollipops.

 

[LauraMax]

I agree with melimcn 100%.

lifeverlasting78's post was very harsh, very pushy, judgemental and offensive. It turned my stomach. I'm a Christian and have been my whole life, but when I see posts like this, I believe this kind of talk only angers, offends and pushes people away. I believe there are nicer ways of getting someone's point across and delivering the "message".



Agreed

Aw c'mon you guys, don't discourage her, I find her posts highly entertaining! Don't we all need a good chuckle every now & then?

 

[LaughingWater]

You get the point though. Most know how Aids began and it wasn't from little girls sharing lollipops.

I'm curious as to how you think it began.

A virus is a virus. It does not discriminate. It does not care about race, religion, sex, or sexual orientation.

 

[LauraMax]

You get the point though. Most know how Aids began and it wasn't from little girls sharing lollipops.

It doesn't matter. I'm not, nor do I have children but I'm OK w/my tax $$ funding research for childhood luekemia. I'm not a man nor do I have one but I'm OK w/my tax $$ funding research for prostate cancer. You can't not help people just b/c they're different from you. That's all about humanity.