to fellow vegans
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LaughingWater
Cathlete
I didn't know this forum had vegan flame wars in its past. Yikes. Though I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.
I'd like to highlight that I hope Cathe and her crew aren't offended by this thread. I know I don't throw her and her business into the same category as those who willingly abuse animals. I'm sure none of us do. Not even close.
I look at Cathe and SNM the same way I look at my husband, children, parents, etc. DH will happily grill steaks on a summer Sunday afternoon. That's because he bought the steaks neatly packaged from the store. But if he went to the source and tried picking out his "steak," he'd leave sick to his stomach and probably an instant vegetarian.
I used to joke that if our food depended on me killing an animal, then the kids and I would have to subsist on corn. I knew on some level that the process was ugly, but I didn't want to investigate for fear of what I'd find. Not fully knowing the truth still allowed me to eat hamburgers at picnics with my family.
Eventually I took the plunge and learned the rest of the story. DH and my kids aren't ready to do that, so I let them be. If I luck out, they'll head in my direction eventually. If not, so be it.
Awesome thread, by the way!
I'm really enjoying everyone's input.
I'd like to highlight that I hope Cathe and her crew aren't offended by this thread. I know I don't throw her and her business into the same category as those who willingly abuse animals. I'm sure none of us do. Not even close.
I look at Cathe and SNM the same way I look at my husband, children, parents, etc. DH will happily grill steaks on a summer Sunday afternoon. That's because he bought the steaks neatly packaged from the store. But if he went to the source and tried picking out his "steak," he'd leave sick to his stomach and probably an instant vegetarian.
I used to joke that if our food depended on me killing an animal, then the kids and I would have to subsist on corn. I knew on some level that the process was ugly, but I didn't want to investigate for fear of what I'd find. Not fully knowing the truth still allowed me to eat hamburgers at picnics with my family.
Eventually I took the plunge and learned the rest of the story. DH and my kids aren't ready to do that, so I let them be. If I luck out, they'll head in my direction eventually. If not, so be it.
Awesome thread, by the way!
I'm really enjoying everyone's input.
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LaughingWater
Cathlete
Oh boy. There's more out there. Meet Your Meat and Meet Your Milk is what did me in.
I think it's great that you're willing to investigate, Ellie. If more of the general public demanded better treatment for our animals, then it might actually happen. Money talks.
I think it's great that you're willing to investigate, Ellie.
If more of the general public demanded better treatment for our animals, then it might actually happen. Money talks.
Liann
Cathlete
So, just out of curiosity. Are any of you letting the fact that the NY event is being put on to promote this new partnership with Eggland keep you from signing up for the free workouts? They are giving out goodie bags courtesy of Eggland and serving up Eggland eggs after each session.
They are giving out goodie bags courtesy of Eggland and serving up Eggland eggs after each session.
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LaughingWater
Cathlete
Being from IL, I don't have to worry about the temptation. *whew!*
fit_fairy
Cathlete
That's a good point Liann.
bonvivant
Cathlete
Thank you. I know what veganism is. The post I responded to was talking about Chris's post and animal cruelty with regard to Eggland's Best. I was trying to clarify some of the things he said and Google said.
True, but what about this particular case? Half-hearted attempts by other companies doesn't equal a half-hearted attempt by one specific company. What are the facts here? I mean, Cathe has been accused of animal cruelty by association. Not directly, but it has certainly been implied. So, what are the facts? Actual hard evidence not assumptions.
I don't care if you eat eggs or not, but think about what you're doing here in this thread. If you have to stop buying Cathe's DVDs then stop buying them. That is your choice. A choice that you are free to make. Promoting EB eggs is Cathe's choice. One that she is free to make as well. Cathe won't ask you to eat eggs or support egg farming. You shouldn't ask her to make career decisions based upon your beliefs. My opinion of eggs or animal cruelty don't matter. It's not my life or my career. I can only make decisions about what is best for me.
Bonivant if you read all the posts I think that everyone has been quite respectful. I have never said that Cathe promotes animal cruelty. I am sad though that she would align herself with a company that does. I'm sorry but EB does promote animal cruelty I am not speaking to one isolated farm. There is no way to mass produce eggs at that level (even though they only distribute them) and not have the animals suffer pure and simple. I am not saying you should not eat eggs. I just think the general puplic should know the suffering that goes into the eggs you put on your plate. I am saying that as respectfully as I can. The only way egg laying hens would not suffer would be to be in a small farm operation such as Sparrows. Sorry but that is the truth.
I am from Iowa so I could not go to the free workout even if I wanted to but if I was in NYC no I wouldn't go and I could never take a freebie from EB. That is not me saying that Cathe is not a good person or a great workout instructor. We all make choices in life. I would hope I always follow my convictions but we are only human and none of us perfect!
I am from Iowa so I could not go to the free workout even if I wanted to but if I was in NYC no I wouldn't go and I could never take a freebie from EB. That is not me saying that Cathe is not a good person or a great workout instructor. We all make choices in life. I would hope I always follow my convictions but we are only human and none of us perfect!
kathryn
Cathlete
Debeaking doesn't actually make them beakless : debeaking means cutting off the end of the beak (which sometimes also cuts off part of the tongue). Imagine somebody sitting at a machine doing this as quickly as possible, and at the same time tossing the male chickens (who are worthless to the egg production) into a bag or directly into a grinder.BEAKLESS??? OMG, I had no idea
LaughingWater
Cathlete
"An animal rights group discovers animal abuse and cruelty at Turner Egg Farm (in Turner, Maine), where hens are raised to lay eggs for the company, Eggland’s Best or Quality Egg."
One source
Another
There are more. If Eggland makes the effort ~ effort that can be verified by someone other than the egg industry ~ to buy its eggs from farms that treat their animals humanely, I'd support their actions. The way it is now though, any company can say they buy humane or raise humane, but there are no strict rules, and therefore the no one is held to any kind of standard.
No. Cathe has never been accused of animal cruelty, by association or otherwise. In fact, I just spelled that out in a recent post just so people wouldn't jump to that conclusion.
It's the idea that money spent with Cathe would then be shared with Eggland. Some find that wrong.
Talking with others about a possible ethical dilemma. When it concerns Cathe and Eggland, where else would we have this conversation?
I'm not.
Right. Same with me, which is why I'm discussing this latest business venture with others who are concerned about a very public association with an egg producer that in the past has been connected with a farm that abuses animals. I'm working on a decision based on what's best for me, and part of that is talking it out with others and getting various opinions.
For what it's worth, my decision is to continue supporting Cathe because I feel there is no substitute, and the benefits of buying from her far outweigh the benefits of boycotting her products in protest of Eggland.
This thread wasn't created to make anyone uncomfortable or defensive.
It's an ethical discussion. That's all. It's cool. 
hiitdogs
Cathlete
True, but should the world always revolve around what's best for me as an individual, or don't we have an obligation to speak up for those who can't or don't have a voice (and by that I don't only mean animals)?
Cathe certainly has the right to do whatever she wants to but everyone else who has voiced their opinion on that thread has the right to voice their opinion. That being said, Cathe is not a private person making a choice in this instance, it's a company that sells products who is making a choice to team up with a company that some people find controversial.
I am not vegan but I am still disappointed by that choice. What I found almost insulting though was SNM's response to many people's concerns of animal cruelty. This thread was not about the choice to eat eggs or not, or being vegan. There is a difference between not eating eggs from companies who are notorious for animal cruelty and not eating eggs at all for ethical reasons.
The fact that Eggland's Best doesn't "produce" eggs is no excuse, they support those farmers who produce eggs under such horrible circumstances. Personally, I don't think any egg that is produced under such conditions can be "healthy".
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kathryn
Cathlete
I agree. This is an animal welfare issue, not solely a vegan issue. It's not an 'us against them' (vegan vs. non-vegans) topic, but an "us for them" (all those concerned with animal welfare and humane treatment of animals supporting those animals who are used in the food production industry to have a better life).
I'm sure those of us who are vegans are well aware that we are (currently
) in the minority, and that we interact with those who are not vegan, and do so in most cases without friction.Thank you. I know what veganism is. The post I responded to was talking about Chris's post and animal cruelty with regard to Eggland's Best. I was trying to clarify some of the things he said and Google said.
That was in response to your remark "they aren't aligned with cruelty". I assumed that you meant Eggland's Best - I apologize if I misread your post.
In 2007, Eggland's Best received certification from the Humane Association for their humane standards. A couple months ago, Mercy for Animals investigated several egg farms and uncovered highly disturbing conditions that were by no means "humane".
Even the humane standards are insufficient, although this is just my opinion. California's relatively progressive Prop 2 would require:
And most states don't even have laws that stringent. And Prop 2 won't even go into effect until 2015, and it is predicted that even allowing animals to turn around in their cages will be too expensive:
So now, and for the next six years, chickens WON'T enjoy those "privileges". EB says they have their consumers in mind and are trying to implement reforms, but they were supposed to be doing that before, and they clearly didn't monitor their egg producers at all.
But all of this is irrelevant: I know that you say you understand what veganism is, but you seem to be missing the point that from a vegan standpoint, using chickens for eggs, under any circumstances, IS the cruelty.
Even if EB had not bought eggs from places that got caught using especially horrible practices, the very fact that they sell eggs AT ALL is still a problem. For vegans. I know it's not everyone's problem and I certainly don't want to tell others what to do or what decisions to make. I'm not asking Cathe to make career decisions based on my personal ethics. The OP asked for our opinions as vegans - and that's mine.
I also posted before -wow -lots of people reposted. Hope I'm not stepping on any toes, I don't mean to. I'm upset about the dang eggs. I am currently not offended and have only goodwill toward this lively discussion with all of you, my fellow posters.
Peace and Hair Grease-
Afreet
LaughingWater
Cathlete
No need to apologize. ((hug)) I'm having a crappy day too, but this thread has been a nice distraction. Gives me something else to think about.
Hope your A/C is fixed soon, and I hope both our days turn around.
(In my case, chocolate may be required. I just don't see it getting better any other way. )