to fellow vegans

[LaughingWater]

I'd also like to add that those "steps" taken to correct documented animal abuse are often half hearted and not enforced.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love it if the industry adopted a better way of caring for these animals, even though they end up being consumed. It's a move in the right direction. I buy meat, chicken, milk, and eggs for my family and would love to know that "Certified Humane" meant something significant. In the past, I bought "cage free" eggs thinking I was at least supporting a company that was decent to its animals while they were alive.

The rules are loose though. For example, "cage free" and "free range" simply mean the animals are not caged. It doesn't have to mean roaming the countryside with plenty of food, water, sunshine, and vet care. It can legally mean being locked up, tightly packed, in a dark warehouse full of waste ~ dehydrated, starving, sick, beaks cut off, and stressed to the max. This ends up being more profitable in the end. I know that doesn't make sense ~ as a farmer, you'd want your product to be healthy, right? But they can override their poor conditions and high mortality rate with sheer volume. And you still eat the chickens that die off early due to illness or cruelty, so there is no financial downside. Nothing is wasted.

I'd support serious measures taken by Eggland's Best to ensure the farms they use truly make the effort to treat their animals in a humane fashion. At this point, though, I don't believe any company's assertion that their animals are well cared for.

 

[Afreet]

I'd also like to add that those "steps" taken to correct documented animal abuse are often half hearted and not enforced.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love it if the industry adopted a better way of caring for these animals, even though they end up being consumed. It's a move in the right direction. I buy meat, chicken, milk, and eggs for my family and would love to know that "Certified Humane" meant something significant. In the past, I bought "cage free" eggs thinking I was at least supporting a company that was decent to its animals while they were alive.

The rules are loose though. For example, "cage free" and "free range" simply mean the animals are not caged. It doesn't have to mean roaming the countryside with plenty of food, water, sunshine, and vet care. It can legally mean being locked up, tightly packed, in a dark warehouse full of waste ~ dehydrated, starving, sick, beaks cut off, and stressed to the max. This ends up being more profitable in the end. I know that doesn't make sense ~ as a farmer, you'd want your product to be healthy, right? But they can override their poor conditions and high mortality rate with sheer volume. And you still eat the chickens that die off early due to illness or cruelty, so there is no financial downside. Nothing is wasted.

I'd support serious measures taken by Eggland's Best to ensure the farms they use truly make the effort to treat their animals in a humane fashion. At this point, though, I don't believe any company's assertion that their animals are well cared for.

Word.

Companies that raise animals to sell them (or their "by-products") for food just don't have a vested interest in the animals' well-being. Actually following through with truly humane reforms would cost too much, and they'd have to raise their prices. Kindness is expensive (although veganism is surprisingly affordable!).

 

[elliemom]

I was just talking to another forum member about why I don't post much anymore. I said, I used to come here to learn new things and hear informative debates about a myriad of subjects.

Well I am back!!!!

I honestly NEVER thought of this Egglands Best issue and am fascinated to learn of these horrid conditions. I am not vegan but that does not mean I don't care about animal cruely. I just never knew.

Thanks to all the above posters for this VERY informative and enlightning thread and for keeping it on topic. I am sure I will be spending part of the day researching this (if I can stomach it) and learning a great deal.

BEAKLESS??? OMG, I had no idea

ellie

 

[pixiesis]

No offense to the OP, but I wish we had brought up this issue without such a focus on veganism, which most people dismiss as a fringe minority. This is what allowed SNM to dismiss vegan Cathe fans with the tasteless 'you are the minority' argument (and thanks a lot for that!), all while avoiding the concerns of many (vegan and non-vegan) about animal abuse. It created a straw-man for SNM to knock down without addressing the real problem, which isn't a vegan problem but an animal cruelty problem.

Amy

 

[TeTe]

Exactly, Amy. It's like saying that just because you don't have a pitbull, you don't think dogfighting is cruel. Plenty of people who aren't vegan or vegetarian still care about how animals are treated.

 

[elliemom]

As I said, I am not vegan but AM concerned about animal crueltly, please read my post above.

Honestly, I bet there a lot of people who have no idea of these horrid conditions. And I buy egglands best, thinking they were the best.

I have a lot to learn

ellie

 

[pixiesis]

As I said, I am not vegan but AM concerned about animal crueltly, please read my post above.

Honestly, I bet there a lot of people who have no idea of these horrid conditions. And I buy egglands best, thinking they were the best.

I have a lot to learn

ellie

Oh, Ellie, I wasn't referring to you. I'm a vegan, but I know vegans aren't the only people concerned with animal cruelty. And just a warning, chickens are not protected by any federal laws; birds are exempt from the "Humane Slaughter Act". If you are going to look into this, prepare yourself for very disturbing information.

Amy

 

[sparrow13]

I'd also like to add that those "steps" taken to correct documented animal abuse are often half hearted and not enforced.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love it if the industry adopted a better way of caring for these animals, even though they end up being consumed. It's a move in the right direction. I buy meat, chicken, milk, and eggs for my family and would love to know that "Certified Humane" meant something significant. In the past, I bought "cage free" eggs thinking I was at least supporting a company that was decent to its animals while they were alive.

The rules are loose though. For example, "cage free" and "free range" simply mean the animals are not caged. It doesn't have to mean roaming the countryside with plenty of food, water, sunshine, and vet care. It can legally mean being locked up, tightly packed, in a dark warehouse full of waste ~ dehydrated, starving, sick, beaks cut off, and stressed to the max. This ends up being more profitable in the end. I know that doesn't make sense ~ as a farmer, you'd want your product to be healthy, right? But they can override their poor conditions and high mortality rate with sheer volume. And you still eat the chickens that die off early due to illness or cruelty, so there is no financial downside. Nothing is wasted.

I'd support serious measures taken by Eggland's Best to ensure the farms they use truly make the effort to treat their animals in a humane fashion. At this point, though, I don't believe any company's assertion that their animals are well cared for.

100 percent agree with this post. I would go over in a dead faint if Eggland's Best really were taking serious measures to confirm that its suppliers used cruelty-free methods.

For those interested in learning more, there are a number of DVDs that chronicle factory farm practices. Also the book Farm Sanctuary is a good place to start.

Curious, for the vegans, what do you guys think of backyard farmers such as myself? I am not 100 percent comfortable with having chickens at this point; they have a great life but at the end of the day I am keeping them for their eggs. It's something I've discussed with members of my Buddhist group, and I'm wondering what the Cathe vegans think.

Sparrow

 

[Liann]

Sparrow - Having a grandmother who was fully Native American, I always look at how her people treated the land and animals. They had respect for nature and lived in harmony with it, but they also used it for survival. Just remember to thank the chicken and I think you'll be fine.

 

[pixiesis]

Curious, for the vegans, what do you guys think of backyard farmers such as myself? I am not 100 percent comfortable with having chickens at this point; they have a great life but at the end of the day I am keeping them for their eggs. It's something I've discussed with members of my Buddhist group, and I'm wondering what the Cathe vegans think.

Sparrow

Well, I've always hated the concept of the "vegan police", but since you ask, I'll give my opinion. Humanely raising chickens for eggs like you are doing is cool with me, from an ethical standpoint. But personally, eggs gross me out (I have a friend who called them 'liquid chicken'-ewwww!). I've gone w/o them so long that I don't ever crave them, even though I did used to like them.

Amy

 

[gettingfitmom]

We know people will have some fairly strong opinions on this and we’re not going to try to change anyone’s minds. But we do want to spend some time correcting a few misconceptions about Eggland’s Best so you can make a better informed decision.

EB does not own any farms and it doesn’t produce any eggs. This is probably something you did not know and are surprised to hear. Eggland’s Best is a co-op of farmers all over the United States, not a single giant conglomerate, that have agreed to feed their hens a strictly controlled EB diet of high-quality, all-natural, all-vegetarian diet without added hormones, antibiotics or steroids of any kind and to follow the highest standards in the industry. This is why Eggland’s Best eggs are lower in saturated fat, have more vitamin E and are lower cholesterol than other eggs. These same farms that produce EB eggs also produce other lesser quality eggs that you see in your supermarket too.

The idea behind the creation of Eggland’s Best was to solve a problem with egg freshness in the supermarket and to improve the quality of the product by setting very high standards and controlling the diet fed to the hens. We will have more about these standards as time goes on.

It used to be that the freshness of the eggs you purchased in the supermarket depended on where you lived before EB came along. The government allows 21 days for an egg to be delivered to a supermarket from the time it was laid. Eggland’s Best came along and cut this time to usually about 24 to 48 hours. Thus, the consumer gets a fresher egg no matter where they live and that is a good thing.

When it comes to quality Eggland’s Best is second to none. The entire egg industry, outside of Eggland’s Best, only did around 300 quality tests last year. Eggland’s Best did over 47,000. Their quality standards for their eggs and for the farms that produce their eggs are the absolute highest in the industry. This is a very well run company that deeply cares about the quality of its product. They also sell an abundance of cage free and organic eggs for those who prefer these.

Our mission is to remind and educate the public on why Eggland’s Best eggs are good for them and why they should be part of a healthy diet. We realize some people are against animal products of any kind and we respect your position, but we also hope you will be tolerant to the majority of people who eat eggs and believe differently.

YES! Iwas going to post that EB probably supplies eggs under other names. I always say, if it offends you, don't buy it, listen to it, etc. I have chickens that are free range, and that isn't always cruelty free. At least when a fox gets in and eats some of them... If You don't like this idea, do not support it!

 

[shelsmaha]

Amy, As the OP I am not offended by your comment in the least! When I made the post I was trying to say it in a way that would not inflame people because I truely just wanted to know how other people thought, not start a protest! I do wish I would have went at it from an animal cruelty angle. And no I do not believe for one second eggland's best cares about how the chickens are treated. They still are in it for profit plain and simple. Sorry to say that if you buy eggs unless you are buying them from a small private farmer that lets the hens roam and roost as they please you are aligning yourself with abuse. Those are just the facts I am not judging anyone for eating eggs. To SNM I am hurt by your response I really wasn't expecting you to say the things you did.

To Sparrow, In my opinion I would eat eggs if I raised and cared for the hens myself. Or knew the farmer that did. I know that is not truely vegan. I usually say I try to not eat animal products and try to live a cruelty free life not that i am vegan for that reason. To everyone that champions animal rights, Bless you! So many people have no ideas of the abuse the animals go through before they get to your plate. In an article it was written to think about the animals that suffered for you to eat not only in their death but their whole lives. If this post has opened some peoples eyes to that then wow was it worth it!!!

 

[LaughingWater]

Amy, I see what you're saying. Though I suspect SNM, like many others who have never considered animal abuse in this form, is unaware of the issue and perhaps didn't quite get the point of this thread the first time around, resulting in the reply that never addressed farming conditions. I could be wrong, but that's my guess.

TeTe: Well, I don't think anyone was purposefully exclusionary when referring to veganism. I know most people wouldn't be comfortable with factory farming, and I'll bet the OP didn't mean to imply that other Catheites don't care about animal cruelty. It's just...this is a common topic among vegans, so she called out to vegan forum members. Naturally, anyone is welcome to join in the conversation.

Ellie, I'm just like you. I had no clue either. I started learning about the vegan diet for health-related issues, and that led me to read about factory farming. I was stunned.

Sparrow, you've demonstrated a kind heart and a great love for your animals. I would imagine some vegans would take you to task about owning hens in the first place, but you won't get flack from me. You care for them, and I'll bet they love you right back.

You may reach a point where you won't want the eggs anymore, but who knows...it's your path. In your own good time.

I meant to mention earlier...that's cool about the Buddhism! I've been reading and learning for a few years now. I don't do much in the way of ritual, I'm a terrible meditator, and I'm very reluctant to join any kind of temple, but I love the philosophy. <3 It's helped me become a much happier person.

 

[meowracer]

Sparrow - I have been reading this thread with great interest but thought I would just be a lurker on this one. However, your question about raising your hens interested me. You seem like such a kind, caring, peaceful soul. I grew up on a farm. We had chickens and let me just say, those were some happy chickens. They were well fed, they had nice coops in which to rest and lay their eggs, they were safe, they had shelter, sunshine, exercise, interaction with humans who cared for and loved them - they were raised from chicks so they knew us. I think your hens are blessed to have you as their mommy. Like Amber said, just tell them thank you!

 

[Afreet]

No offense to the OP, but I wish we had brought up this issue without such a focus on veganism, which most people dismiss as a fringe minority. This is what allowed SNM to dismiss vegan Cathe fans with the tasteless 'you are the minority' argument (and thanks a lot for that!), all while avoiding the concerns of many (vegan and non-vegan) about animal abuse. It created a straw-man for SNM to knock down without addressing the real problem, which isn't a vegan problem but an animal cruelty problem.

Amy

I agree with your point, and I think the conversation should absolutely be open to all concerned parties - but I think the OP was right on target - the reason vegans are a minority is because the majority won't change their buying habits due to issues of animal cruelty.

As much as I would like to think that SNM will take broader concerns about animal cruelty seriously, the fact that giant egg retailers like Eggland's Best exist is because the overwhelming majority of people just don't care what happens to chickens - many concerned citizens are satisfied with assurances about quality control and humane standards - after all, who has time to track down the farm where their eggs come from and check on them? (except Sparrow, obviously - I'm sure her chickens all have beaks ). And until you've seen a factory farm (they're mostly well away from major population centers), it's hard to grasp the scope of the badness.

All that being said, I hope nothing I've said will discourage any and all concerned Catheites. Animal welfare isn't the exclusive territory of veganism, and I certainly won't attack anyone for being worried about this.

 

[shelsmaha]

Lori you have such a beautiful attitude! And Sparrow I would be so happy to commune with the animals everyday! You are very lucky to have the chance to raise your own! And I think we all know sad things happen in the animal kingdom like the fox and the hen. That is nature. Man debeaking chicks and sticking them into wire cages that they live their whole lives in to give us eggs is I'm sorry not nature. We are going against nature in so many ways and our poor earth is suffering for it! But that is a whole other post!!!

 

[pixiesis]

Amy, As the OP I am not offended by your comment in the least! When I made the post I was trying to say it in a way that would not inflame people because I truely just wanted to know how other people thought, not start a protest!

Oh, good. I'm glad I didn't offend you. And I absolutely understand why you were asking fellow vegans for comment. There have been some ugly flame-wars over veganism (maybe you didn't know that) so I, and others no doubt, immediately knew that despite your efforts, we'd end up having the same old argument that vegans are a fringe minority not to be taken seriously. But I was surprised that it came from SNM, I have to say. I think they are being incredibly naive if they think that only us vegan freaks will take issue with this new association. I hope they reconsider.

Amy

 

[shelsmaha]

Amy I totally agree. I think you can see by how this thread has evolved that most people do care about animal rights. It is just that alot of people have no idea about farm animal rights. Or any idea of the abuses that these animals face. I think the Eggland's Best joint venture was short sighted but that is just me....I'm glad though to see so many others feel passionately about the animals that give there lives for our food!!

 

[NY25]

Thanks, Kathryn! Yes, pescatarianism includes fish in an otherwise vegetarian diet. This is something I'm still working through myself. I try to limit what I eat to a very few varieties of seafood and at an absolute maximum of once a week (I'm probably only once every two weeks at this point). I struggle with the whole thing every day. Leather shoes and bags, hair and skin care products, I'm a knitter, etc. I do what I can and pay attention to the extent I am able. I buy Origins skin care products and Aveda hair care, but know nothing in this day and age will ever be perfect. What human beings to do animals in this world is so far beyond despicable - it literally keeps me up some nights. "Humans" who participate in factory farming, in slaughter of animals, the beef and pork industries are abominable - I don't know how they can live with themselves doing what they do to animals. And might I add, "God's creatures." I literally makes me dizzy some days. So eating seafood remains something I really struggle with. This is why Cathe's alliance with Eggland's is troublesome for me. It's promoting animal cruelty, plain and simple. But clearly, her intent is to expand her audience to the general population at large. She's a business-woman and I understand that. Hopefully this won't translate into a watering down of her products (although I do still like modifiers shown ;-). I'll still buy her products, but I do wonder now if the desire for profitability outweighs doing the right thing here. Let's face it - at this point this woman is a millionaire. How much money do you need? If it meant giving up my ethics or contributing to animal cruelty, for me it's not worth it. For others, money is all green no matter where is comes from. I just wonder when is it "enough?"

 

[shelsmaha]

NY25 I struggle alot with doing the right thing also. I live in the midwest so it is not always easy to find vegan alternatives to shoes etc. I have swtiched to non leather handbags (Lesportsac love it!) But still wear my leather Dansko shoes. I will buy cruelty free whent there is an option, and I do look for the option. I am stuggling with the wool thing. I guess I have not investigated how sheep are treated that give us wool. Sometimes I think I will go crazy with all the horror! Like you said it makes me dizzy!! I do eat organic Honey from sustainable farms, that is not vegan either. I think we all need to come to a place that will not compromise our morals and I think that evolves in time.