Mom delivers 16th child!!!! YOWZA!!!
- Thread starter dani21496
- Start date
So what? I don't see what the big deal is about the girls. If they choose to go to college, so be it. If they choose to stay at home, be a mom, etc...So be it. Not everyone in this country went to college either. Going to college is not mantatory. It's a choice. A lot of you women believe in abortion since it's "My body, my choice". For Michelle and her daughters, it's their bodies and their choice so therefore they can choose to have as many babies as they'd like. That's what is great about this country. You choose what you want to do.
Bobbi
Cathlete
Long and rambling road of thought...
I know that is shocking from such a quiet one moi but... My easy breezy child says follow my bumper car of thought.
I find it so very interesting how these topics bring about such intense discussions and varied opinions. Sometimes I am in the passionate response camp and others I just don't get too emotionally involved. Dani's thread was the first I heard of this but my sister, mother and my husband all mentioned this story to me. I haven't watched TV or listened to NPR in a very long time. I think Autumn makes a very valid point. When I believe something to be true and get involved, I will certainly air my opinion and at times, step on toes of people who believe differently. There are times when I know what I believe is going to really chap someone's hide and then it is very important to weigh my words so I can express my opinion without offending more than is absloutely necessary. Truth is subjective and there are many of them floating around out there. Some may even be better than others. Some are diametricaly opposed and yet each believer completely embraces his or own beliefs and cannot be swayed by someone else. It causes a lot of conflict. I think this mom is pretty kooky
for wanting so many kids and even saying more would be just fine by her. It's enjoyable to read each post and realise how different we are but choosing our words carefully so we don't offend could be the lesson to be learned here. It could end flame wars and deleted threads. A simple example is how my son chose a type of gum his best friend hated and Sam ended up being rather offended by Brandon saying his gum tasted like vomit and we discussed better ways of communicating such things. A simple it's not to my liking being my favorite. I could ask myself why anyone cares in this case but I know. I have read the posts. I am remembering when the woman had 7 babies and how upset that made some peole to the point at which I was surprised, at how involved they became emotionally. It makes me want to think about how I express my views and if I am doing well enough at not offending anyone with them even if mine are very different. Words are so powerful. They can cut like a knife or make someone feel wonderful and that certainly bears thoughtful consideration.
Our German exchange student left Saturday and I had worried, I think, that the German kids would find us all disgusting in our often unreaalised excessiveness. We Americans are spoiled! She looked at my fridge, the one I have thought far too small since we first financed it as a young couple with young children moving into our first house complete with mortgage, all 1930 squre feet of it with it's 2 and a half baths. She thought it was huge and it is compared to hers. They have no freezer and Regine never used ice unless something was not chilled as is often the case with soda in this house. I cannot fit it in my well-stocked fridge. I have so much food on hand I could feed my mother's family easily. When I go to Costco, I think of my mom and how she would have loved it. I am a stocker and can put together a meal on short notice.
Regines loved us and called her trip the best of her life. Her parents grew up in communist East Germany and I wonder what they might think? I got to look at myself through her eyes and it made me see that although I am concerned with many soicial issues and very involved in them too, I take much for granted and fall into that category of the resource vampire in a world that needs to learn to share more equitably. My sister told me Mom of 16 was a conservative Christain who most likely or does homeschool her kids who probably are very unlike mine, one of whom is trying to get both an iPod and a digital camera for Christmas. My family five may very well consume more than there's but in a much different way. And so do many of yours, I think. Smaller yes, but all bunched together in the category of American's who take for granted all that we have available to us. We struggled to make ends meet in our early days and now I have two freezer jammed full of food and yet not far from here are children with no shoes who get their meals only at school. Do I have the right to say their parents should have no kids if they cannot afford them or to judge the for the number they have? I think I would have to know them very well to do so.
I have always been able to afford birth control though it has never been covered by the insurance I could also afford, struggling at that at first but no longer. Yet I had a third child I was not planning on having because methods often fail and I had not yet decided tubal ligation was the ultimate choice. Sam came a long and then I knew. I am trying to say that we all need to walk a mile in another man's shoes before we come out and make such concrete statements of our beliefs. Many of my sibs are very conservative but not to the point where they forgo birth control pills. Why, it was Dani herself who educated me that birth control pills could indeed be abortifacients when she was looking for the correct method as a young woman about to get married.
I think these discussions ahve helped me grow tremendously and to look at beliefs and think about truth in ways I might not have otherwise. I can get heated and very passionate but I also want to put my opinion across without offending because it is never given with the intention of changing someone's mind and bringing them into my camp in regard to beliefs. I hope I share valuable information that helps but in many cases I just want to share how I feel about all of this stuff going on in the world we all share. The bonus is hanging out with some magnificent women from all walks of life. I think I owe it to myself and everyone else to try to express myself with carefully selected language that respects differing opinions and even to disagree or argue without offense. I have missed the mark dreadfully on occasion but strive to change that because I get upsest with myself when it happens and then I wish I HAD actually sat on my hands and kept my cyber mouth shut or expressed myself with a better choiice of words. I can then apply that to my own family because as my dear mother said, if you treated your friends the way you treat your family you would have no friends. Sadly, that is true but I am happy to announce that it can be changed!
I do believe I have gotten myself back to my latest attempt at personal growth entitled "finding a better way". I would have to start a whole new thread to explain that, but the short version is I have a sadly difficult relationship with my 16 year old because we lose our tempers with each other too often. Last night I was able to walk away from a very dramatic tirade and to wait until this morning and simply show her that I don't require her respect but I demand that she choose words that do not cut me to the bone. She thinks we are alike and attributes her outbursts to being like me. But if I called HER a pshycho, I would end up the subject of her session with her psychiatrist in a few years when she has grown and moved on. No way, but when she hurts my feelings and even makes me doubt myself, I feel sad and horrible and a complete failure as a mother. It's only recently I realised how, dare I say stupid, that is. She rationalises her behavior because we are both highly emotional but one thing I am not is cruel. I know I am rambling but I have been so upset that her friends seem to like me better than she and she thinks I am reactive in the same way she is but it's simply not true. I know. I have asked my husband and middle daughter if I am as she acuses me. That her perception of me is her truth, well, I may need therapy on that one. I have also over indulged her which may be as my husband thinks, because I grew up modestly or that I say yes too much and have not established good boundaries, I am learning that the power of taking away a car from a teenager and not saying yes to the too many social engagements she desires can be done even late in the game. I should start a new thread, huh? Anyway, my thought for the day is learning to communicate and disagree without pushing buttons is difficult but doable if we really want that. My own dear mother taught me it is better to say nothing than to say something in anger or upset and to use the softer word, the word that does not linger causing anger or pain and I am trying and it's working with my beloved Ali, so smart with so much potential to rock the world but as prickly as a pear cactus!
I must now admit that while I love this child with all my heart and would take a bullet for her, I don't always like her nor she me. I thought that was against the law of mothering. It makes sense though and I also have a couple of sisters I love but would never choose for friends if we met as strangers. But there is no such thing as spoiled rotton and rotton kids can't be tossed into the garbage so this mother is working on holding her temper and her tongue with child number one, because argumensts suck!
I also admit, without guilt now, that at 16 she can cow me easily. My friends and family are appalled by that but I have to respect who I am and not try to take her on in a verbal battle. She does not pull her punches. I know I could eat her alive. Verbal skill is a hobby of mine but I must choose not to.
Thanks for letting me get this off my chest, by the way. Next time I will start a new thread and do feel free to give advice because I need it and love getting it from you awesome creatures!
Bobbi http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/chicken.gif "Chick's rule!"
Tell me, what it is you plan to do with your one wild and precious life? -Mary Oliver
I know that is shocking from such a quiet one moi but... My easy breezy child says follow my bumper car of thought.
I find it so very interesting how these topics bring about such intense discussions and varied opinions. Sometimes I am in the passionate response camp and others I just don't get too emotionally involved. Dani's thread was the first I heard of this but my sister, mother and my husband all mentioned this story to me. I haven't watched TV or listened to NPR in a very long time. I think Autumn makes a very valid point. When I believe something to be true and get involved, I will certainly air my opinion and at times, step on toes of people who believe differently. There are times when I know what I believe is going to really chap someone's hide and then it is very important to weigh my words so I can express my opinion without offending more than is absloutely necessary. Truth is subjective and there are many of them floating around out there. Some may even be better than others. Some are diametricaly opposed and yet each believer completely embraces his or own beliefs and cannot be swayed by someone else. It causes a lot of conflict. I think this mom is pretty kooky
for wanting so many kids and even saying more would be just fine by her. It's enjoyable to read each post and realise how different we are but choosing our words carefully so we don't offend could be the lesson to be learned here. It could end flame wars and deleted threads. A simple example is how my son chose a type of gum his best friend hated and Sam ended up being rather offended by Brandon saying his gum tasted like vomit and we discussed better ways of communicating such things. A simple it's not to my liking being my favorite. I could ask myself why anyone cares in this case but I know. I have read the posts. I am remembering when the woman had 7 babies and how upset that made some peole to the point at which I was surprised, at how involved they became emotionally. It makes me want to think about how I express my views and if I am doing well enough at not offending anyone with them even if mine are very different. Words are so powerful. They can cut like a knife or make someone feel wonderful and that certainly bears thoughtful consideration.Our German exchange student left Saturday and I had worried, I think, that the German kids would find us all disgusting in our often unreaalised excessiveness. We Americans are spoiled! She looked at my fridge, the one I have thought far too small since we first financed it as a young couple with young children moving into our first house complete with mortgage, all 1930 squre feet of it with it's 2 and a half baths. She thought it was huge and it is compared to hers. They have no freezer and Regine never used ice unless something was not chilled as is often the case with soda in this house. I cannot fit it in my well-stocked fridge. I have so much food on hand I could feed my mother's family easily. When I go to Costco, I think of my mom and how she would have loved it. I am a stocker and can put together a meal on short notice.
Regines loved us and called her trip the best of her life. Her parents grew up in communist East Germany and I wonder what they might think? I got to look at myself through her eyes and it made me see that although I am concerned with many soicial issues and very involved in them too, I take much for granted and fall into that category of the resource vampire in a world that needs to learn to share more equitably. My sister told me Mom of 16 was a conservative Christain who most likely or does homeschool her kids who probably are very unlike mine, one of whom is trying to get both an iPod and a digital camera for Christmas. My family five may very well consume more than there's but in a much different way. And so do many of yours, I think. Smaller yes, but all bunched together in the category of American's who take for granted all that we have available to us. We struggled to make ends meet in our early days and now I have two freezer jammed full of food and yet not far from here are children with no shoes who get their meals only at school. Do I have the right to say their parents should have no kids if they cannot afford them or to judge the for the number they have? I think I would have to know them very well to do so.
I have always been able to afford birth control though it has never been covered by the insurance I could also afford, struggling at that at first but no longer. Yet I had a third child I was not planning on having because methods often fail and I had not yet decided tubal ligation was the ultimate choice. Sam came a long and then I knew. I am trying to say that we all need to walk a mile in another man's shoes before we come out and make such concrete statements of our beliefs. Many of my sibs are very conservative but not to the point where they forgo birth control pills. Why, it was Dani herself who educated me that birth control pills could indeed be abortifacients when she was looking for the correct method as a young woman about to get married.
I think these discussions ahve helped me grow tremendously and to look at beliefs and think about truth in ways I might not have otherwise. I can get heated and very passionate but I also want to put my opinion across without offending because it is never given with the intention of changing someone's mind and bringing them into my camp in regard to beliefs. I hope I share valuable information that helps but in many cases I just want to share how I feel about all of this stuff going on in the world we all share. The bonus is hanging out with some magnificent women from all walks of life. I think I owe it to myself and everyone else to try to express myself with carefully selected language that respects differing opinions and even to disagree or argue without offense. I have missed the mark dreadfully on occasion but strive to change that because I get upsest with myself when it happens and then I wish I HAD actually sat on my hands and kept my cyber mouth shut or expressed myself with a better choiice of words. I can then apply that to my own family because as my dear mother said, if you treated your friends the way you treat your family you would have no friends.
Sadly, that is true but I am happy to announce that it can be changed! I do believe I have gotten myself back to my latest attempt at personal growth entitled "finding a better way". I would have to start a whole new thread to explain that, but the short version is I have a sadly difficult relationship with my 16 year old because we lose our tempers with each other too often. Last night I was able to walk away from a very dramatic tirade and to wait until this morning and simply show her that I don't require her respect but I demand that she choose words that do not cut me to the bone. She thinks we are alike and attributes her outbursts to being like me. But if I called HER a pshycho, I would end up the subject of her session with her psychiatrist in a few years when she has grown and moved on.
No way, but when she hurts my feelings and even makes me doubt myself, I feel sad and horrible and a complete failure as a mother. It's only recently I realised how, dare I say stupid, that is. She rationalises her behavior because we are both highly emotional but one thing I am not is cruel. I know I am rambling but I have been so upset that her friends seem to like me better than she and she thinks I am reactive in the same way she is but it's simply not true. I know. I have asked my husband and middle daughter if I am as she acuses me. That her perception of me is her truth, well, I may need therapy on that one. I have also over indulged her which may be as my husband thinks, because I grew up modestly or that I say yes too much and have not established good boundaries, I am learning that the power of taking away a car from a teenager and not saying yes to the too many social engagements she desires can be done even late in the game. I should start a new thread, huh? Anyway, my thought for the day is learning to communicate and disagree without pushing buttons is difficult but doable if we really want that. My own dear mother taught me it is better to say nothing than to say something in anger or upset and to use the softer word, the word that does not linger causing anger or pain and I am trying and it's working with my beloved Ali, so smart with so much potential to rock the world but as prickly as a pear cactus! I must now admit that while I love this child with all my heart and would take a bullet for her, I don't always like her nor she me. I thought that was against the law of mothering. It makes sense though and I also have a couple of sisters I love but would never choose for friends if we met as strangers. But there is no such thing as spoiled rotton and rotton kids can't be tossed into the garbage so this mother is working on holding her temper and her tongue with child number one, because argumensts suck!
I also admit, without guilt now, that at 16 she can cow me easily. My friends and family are appalled by that but I have to respect who I am and not try to take her on in a verbal battle. She does not pull her punches. I know I could eat her alive. Verbal skill is a hobby of mine but I must choose not to.
Thanks for letting me get this off my chest, by the way.
Next time I will start a new thread and do feel free to give advice because I need it and love getting it from you awesome creatures! Bobbi http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/chicken.gif "Chick's rule!"
Tell me, what it is you plan to do with your one wild and precious life? -Mary Oliver
candi
Cathlete
ZT27,
Yes, it is wonderful that we in the US can make our own choices and have our own opinions.
But, I suspect that being raised in such a devoutly Christian home, the children in this family are not given many choices. Also, I suspect the boys are expected to go to college and the girls are expected to find good Christian husbands.
Again, this is my opinion based on looking at their website and reading their story.
Yes, it is wonderful that we in the US can make our own choices and have our own opinions.
But, I suspect that being raised in such a devoutly Christian home, the children in this family are not given many choices. Also, I suspect the boys are expected to go to college and the girls are expected to find good Christian husbands.
Again, this is my opinion based on looking at their website and reading their story.
Miss Lee
Cathlete
>But, I suspect that being raised in such a devoutly Christian
>home, the children in this family are not given many choices.
>Also, I suspect the boys are expected to go to college and the
>girls are expected to find good Christian husbands.
Hi Candi, and ETA Kathryn, and Lori,
I really haven't followed this thread but I was struck by your comment. I'm a devout, born again Christian and so are most of my friends. I can't think of a single one that would espouse such backward views regarding life choices (indeed, even to walk in the faith is presented as a choice), and especially the education of women. Everyone of my friends is college educated and their children, male and female, are as well. I realize there are some Christians out there that give us all a bad name, as with anything, but I can tell you that the views you expressed are not held by mainstream Christians--at all!!
Just wanted to clear that up.
ETA I know many high powered, born again Christian women occupying jobs in every facet of the professional world--lawyers, doctors, engineers. I think a devout Christian woman is currently up for consideration for a seat on the bench of the supreme court!!
Michele
>home, the children in this family are not given many choices.
>Also, I suspect the boys are expected to go to college and the
>girls are expected to find good Christian husbands.
Hi Candi, and ETA Kathryn, and Lori,
I really haven't followed this thread but I was struck by your comment. I'm a devout, born again Christian and so are most of my friends. I can't think of a single one that would espouse such backward views regarding life choices (indeed, even to walk in the faith is presented as a choice), and especially the education of women. Everyone of my friends is college educated and their children, male and female, are as well. I realize there are some Christians out there that give us all a bad name, as with anything, but I can tell you that the views you expressed are not held by mainstream Christians--at all!!
Just wanted to clear that up.
ETA I know many high powered, born again Christian women occupying jobs in every facet of the professional world--lawyers, doctors, engineers. I think a devout Christian woman is currently up for consideration for a seat on the bench of the supreme court!!
Michele
Miss Lee
Cathlete
RE: Long and rambling road of thought...
>
>Thanks for letting me get this off my chest, by the way.
>Next time I will start a new thread and do feel free to give
>advice because I need it and love getting it from you awesome
>creatures!
Hi Bobbi,
I don't know you well but I love to read your posts and if your daughter turns out to be half as wise and wonderful as you are you will have raised up one heck of a great girl!!!
Michele
>
>Thanks for letting me get this off my chest, by the way.
>Next time I will start a new thread and do feel free to give
>advice because I need it and love getting it from you awesome
>creatures!
Hi Bobbi,
I don't know you well but I love to read your posts and if your daughter turns out to be half as wise and wonderful as you are you will have raised up one heck of a great girl!!!
Michele
candi
Cathlete
RE: Long and rambling road of thought...
Michele,
A woman marrying at an extremely young age by any standard and then having 18 children and then wanting more is certainly not mainstream. And I beg to differ with you about walking in faith is a choice, yes, it is as an adult but as a child, it is not.
By the way, and I mean no offense here, the supreme court nominee doesn't impress me. She's a Bush cronie and I'm not a Dubya fan.
Michele,
A woman marrying at an extremely young age by any standard and then having 18 children and then wanting more is certainly not mainstream. And I beg to differ with you about walking in faith is a choice, yes, it is as an adult but as a child, it is not.
By the way, and I mean no offense here, the supreme court nominee doesn't impress me. She's a Bush cronie and I'm not a Dubya fan.
Candi,
My point is that we take risks every day and the odds are that nothing bad will happen when we take those risks - driving, flying, side effects from meds, surgery, sports, etc. When something does happen, we don't say that the person chose for that to happen even though they knew the risks when they chose to do that activity.
Bobbi said in one of her posts that she had a surprise pregnancy because her birth control failed. She knew the risks of intercourse, but didn't choose to get pregnant - the odds were in her favor that it wouldn't happen. I had the same thing happen to me with my 4th child. I used birth control and still ended up getting pregnant. I didn't choose to have another baby, but I did. After she was born, I had my tubes tied.
People who go through fertility treatments usually don't end up with higher order multiples. When it does happen, I don't think it's fair to say that they chose for that to happen when they really only were trying for one baby.
I hope that I'm making sense!
Erica
My point is that we take risks every day and the odds are that nothing bad will happen when we take those risks - driving, flying, side effects from meds, surgery, sports, etc. When something does happen, we don't say that the person chose for that to happen even though they knew the risks when they chose to do that activity.
Bobbi said in one of her posts that she had a surprise pregnancy because her birth control failed. She knew the risks of intercourse, but didn't choose to get pregnant - the odds were in her favor that it wouldn't happen. I had the same thing happen to me with my 4th child. I used birth control and still ended up getting pregnant. I didn't choose to have another baby, but I did. After she was born, I had my tubes tied.
People who go through fertility treatments usually don't end up with higher order multiples. When it does happen, I don't think it's fair to say that they chose for that to happen when they really only were trying for one baby.
I hope that I'm making sense!
Erica
RE: Long and rambling road of thought...
Thanks for your post Bobbi! I am pretty committed to women's health as ya'll know. I think I have cared for women of just about every belief and non-belief there is. Though I may not personally make the same choice or agree with a particular woman, I respect her. The subject of pills and miscarriage is a pet peeve of mine. NO ONE should make this decision for a woman including doctors, Planned Parenthood, ACOG, AMA, etc. All the facts should be provided and the woman should decide. This is what informed consent is all about.
It seems ridiculous that the mechanism of the pill should even be questioned, but it is and has led to an even more interesting debate of when conception and pregnancy begin. This debate regarding conception and pregnancy began in the 60's after the introduction of the pill. In 1965, ACOG released a bulletin that stated "conception is the implantation of the fertilized ovum". Hmmmm... the union of the ovum and sperm is no longer conception??? In 1985, ACOG redefined pregnancy as beginning with implantation. This "verbal engineering" seems to be rooted in the fact that the pill prevents implantation. See the goop that is created. Many women don't know how the pill or some of these other methods work, which reinforces my frustration. Medical "facts" evolve as information becomes available. My DH has a friend from HS who has a disfigured arm. His mother decided she wanted to end her pregnancy. This was in the 60's. She was instructed to take two BCPs a day until she miscarried. She changed her mind, but her son is disfigured (though who knows what else she was doing that could have caused this). Granted, these pills ARE NOT the pills we have today (lower hormone content, different formulations), but it shows how things evolve.
I've rambled enough about things unrelated to the topic of this thread.
Like Michele, I love reading your posts Bobbi!
Thanks for your post Bobbi! I am pretty committed to women's health as ya'll know
. I think I have cared for women of just about every belief and non-belief there is. Though I may not personally make the same choice or agree with a particular woman, I respect her. The subject of pills and miscarriage is a pet peeve of mine. NO ONE should make this decision for a woman including doctors, Planned Parenthood, ACOG, AMA, etc. All the facts should be provided and the woman should decide. This is what informed consent is all about. It seems ridiculous that the mechanism of the pill should even be questioned, but it is and has led to an even more interesting debate of when conception and pregnancy begin. This debate regarding conception and pregnancy began in the 60's after the introduction of the pill. In 1965, ACOG released a bulletin that stated "conception is the implantation of the fertilized ovum". Hmmmm... the union of the ovum and sperm is no longer conception??? In 1985, ACOG redefined pregnancy as beginning with implantation. This "verbal engineering" seems to be rooted in the fact that the pill prevents implantation. See the goop that is created. Many women don't know how the pill or some of these other methods work, which reinforces my frustration.
Medical "facts" evolve as information becomes available. My DH has a friend from HS who has a disfigured arm. His mother decided she wanted to end her pregnancy. This was in the 60's. She was instructed to take two BCPs a day until she miscarried. She changed her mind, but her son is disfigured (though who knows what else she was doing that could have caused this). Granted, these pills ARE NOT the pills we have today (lower hormone content, different formulations), but it shows how things evolve. I've rambled enough about things unrelated to the topic of this thread.
Like Michele, I love reading your posts Bobbi!
Miss Lee
Cathlete
RE: Long and rambling road of thought...
Actually Candi, I wasn't referring to this woman or any woman in particular. I was responding to the ideas advanced on this thread regarding "Christian women"--in general. We are not all a bunch of dumb, uneducated, baby making machines. Please don't single out this example and hold it up as a paradigm of the life of Christian women.
Most parents I know of any and all stripes raise their children according to their own philosophy. Why should Christians be any different? I stand by my comment, when the time comes, as it does for each and every Christian, to make a personal commitment to Christ, every single Christian, adult and child alike, has the right to make a choice. You cannot make someone accept Christ as their personal savior and Lord. That's a very personal moment in the life of a Christian, a choice that each individual makes on their own.
Michele
Actually Candi, I wasn't referring to this woman or any woman in particular. I was responding to the ideas advanced on this thread regarding "Christian women"--in general. We are not all a bunch of dumb, uneducated, baby making machines. Please don't single out this example and hold it up as a paradigm of the life of Christian women.
Most parents I know of any and all stripes raise their children according to their own philosophy. Why should Christians be any different? I stand by my comment, when the time comes, as it does for each and every Christian, to make a personal commitment to Christ, every single Christian, adult and child alike, has the right to make a choice. You cannot make someone accept Christ as their personal savior and Lord. That's a very personal moment in the life of a Christian, a choice that each individual makes on their own.
Michele
Fit_mommy
Cathlete
RE: Long and rambling road of thought...
"I suspect that being raised in such a devoutly Christian home, the children in this family are not given many choices. Also, I suspect the boys are expected to go to college and the girls are expected to find good Christian husbands."
*********************************
I respectfully disagree.
My sister and her husband are VERY DEVOUT CATHOLICS. They have 6 children and from day one they decided that my sister would stay home and raise her kids. She is a college educated woman who, no doubt, could have a very lucrative career right now if she continued to work but she CHOSE not to. This is not because of her religious beliefs but because she and her husband feel it's best for thier kids. They have 2 boys and 4 girls and ALL of those children will have equal opportunity to go to college and have a career. The girls will in no way be pushed to do what my sister did. They will only be encouraged to SUCCEED at whatever it is they choose to do in life.
I, on the other hand, am soooo NOT religious but have also chosen to be a stay at home mom simply because I feel it's better for my child and it's something I have always wanted to do when I had kids.
I think it's unfair to assume that these girls will not be given the same choices in life as thier brothers simply because you think that a good Christian woman stays home barefoot and pregnant and is not allowed do anything else. This is simply not true.
"I suspect that being raised in such a devoutly Christian home, the children in this family are not given many choices. Also, I suspect the boys are expected to go to college and the girls are expected to find good Christian husbands."
*********************************
I respectfully disagree.
My sister and her husband are VERY DEVOUT CATHOLICS. They have 6 children and from day one they decided that my sister would stay home and raise her kids. She is a college educated woman who, no doubt, could have a very lucrative career right now if she continued to work but she CHOSE not to. This is not because of her religious beliefs but because she and her husband feel it's best for thier kids. They have 2 boys and 4 girls and ALL of those children will have equal opportunity to go to college and have a career. The girls will in no way be pushed to do what my sister did. They will only be encouraged to SUCCEED at whatever it is they choose to do in life.
I, on the other hand, am soooo NOT religious but have also chosen to be a stay at home mom simply because I feel it's better for my child and it's something I have always wanted to do when I had kids.
I think it's unfair to assume that these girls will not be given the same choices in life as thier brothers simply because you think that a good Christian woman stays home barefoot and pregnant and is not allowed do anything else. This is simply not true.
Miss Lee
Cathlete
RE: Long and rambling road of thought...
Hey Wendy--I'm with you and your sister on this one!! I've grown weary of all the Christian bashing. My best friend in the world, who graduated first in our class in nursing school, is a SAHM. She's agnostic and her children are being raised as such. She refuses to work until her kids are grown. I think it's wonderful.
I think it's great when women choose to be SAHM. I think they have the toughest job on earth and I applaud thier decision. These women tend to be selfless and sacrificial. I realize that not everyone can do this, but for those who can, it is a great choice for the benefit of the kids.
Michele
Hey Wendy--I'm with you and your sister on this one!! I've grown weary of all the Christian bashing. My best friend in the world, who graduated first in our class in nursing school, is a SAHM. She's agnostic and her children are being raised as such. She refuses to work until her kids are grown. I think it's wonderful.
I think it's great when women choose to be SAHM. I think they have the toughest job on earth and I applaud thier decision. These women tend to be selfless and sacrificial. I realize that not everyone can do this, but for those who can, it is a great choice for the benefit of the kids.
Michele
candi
Cathlete
RE: Long and rambling road of thought...
Michele,
I am singling this one out because it is the subject of the thread. I think you are taking this much too personal. I apologize if I offended you.
I come to my conclusions based on my own experience with devout Christians. When I moved to Central Florida from New Jersey, my first job was in an office of extremely devout Christians. They treated me like I was riff raff and scum because I was raised in Catholic religion. I was never accepted by those people. When I tried to become a member of a Baptist Church because my ex husband was Baptist, I was told that I had to be baptised twice because one baptism wasn't acceptable to them. They had quotas they had to meet. So, you see, this is my experience with Evangelical Christianity. As you can see, they weren't very good experiences.
Michele,
I am singling this one out because it is the subject of the thread. I think you are taking this much too personal. I apologize if I offended you.
I come to my conclusions based on my own experience with devout Christians. When I moved to Central Florida from New Jersey, my first job was in an office of extremely devout Christians. They treated me like I was riff raff and scum because I was raised in Catholic religion. I was never accepted by those people. When I tried to become a member of a Baptist Church because my ex husband was Baptist, I was told that I had to be baptised twice because one baptism wasn't acceptable to them. They had quotas they had to meet. So, you see, this is my experience with Evangelical Christianity. As you can see, they weren't very good experiences.
Miss Lee
Cathlete
RE: Long and rambling road of thought...
Candi,
I know these things happen and I can't tell you how much abhor this behavior. I've left a church before because of a similar problem. There are some very unchristian-like Christians out there. Even people masquerading as Christians when in their hearts, they are not. I'm so sorry for your experience. You should've been welcomed with open arms. In my church, babtism is not mandatory--you can be baptized if you like and it's done more as a declaration of faith--it's not a requirement for salvation.
Again, I don't feel that this is the norm. Let's face it, the bad apples really do ruin it for the rest of the bunch.
Michele
Candi,
I know these things happen and I can't tell you how much abhor this behavior. I've left a church before because of a similar problem. There are some very unchristian-like Christians out there. Even people masquerading as Christians when in their hearts, they are not. I'm so sorry for your experience. You should've been welcomed with open arms. In my church, babtism is not mandatory--you can be baptized if you like and it's done more as a declaration of faith--it's not a requirement for salvation.
Again, I don't feel that this is the norm. Let's face it, the bad apples really do ruin it for the rest of the bunch.
Michele
pink_fortitude
Banned
RE: Long and rambling road of thought...
Candi, if these people treated you like that then they weren't christians. I am so saddened that you experienced that. There are thousands of churches that would never have done that to you. For that reason, it isn't fair to use a broad brush and paint all christians the same color based those experiences. When you make comments like that, people will get offended especially if they are living a godly life and know that what you said isn't true. You can't make comments like that and expect people to not take it personal when in fact a walk with God is the most personal voyage of all for christians.
Candi, if these people treated you like that then they weren't christians. I am so saddened that you experienced that. There are thousands of churches that would never have done that to you. For that reason, it isn't fair to use a broad brush and paint all christians the same color based those experiences. When you make comments like that, people will get offended especially if they are living a godly life and know that what you said isn't true. You can't make comments like that and expect people to not take it personal when in fact a walk with God is the most personal voyage of all for christians.
candi
Cathlete
RE: Long and rambling road of thought...
To both of my Christan friends,
Thank you for your comments and I know what you mean about painting with a broad brush butI mention only two of the negative experiences I've had here. There more that I don't care to discuss. I work with a man who is a Christian and truly has a Christian heart. But, this is only one person out of the hundreds that I've met that call themselves "Christian" that espouses the qualities that I would expect and at the same time does not wear his religion on his sleeve so to speak.
I'm sorry if I offended but this is how I feel. I hope you'll respect my right to have one.
To both of my Christan friends,
Thank you for your comments and I know what you mean about painting with a broad brush butI mention only two of the negative experiences I've had here. There more that I don't care to discuss. I work with a man who is a Christian and truly has a Christian heart. But, this is only one person out of the hundreds that I've met that call themselves "Christian" that espouses the qualities that I would expect and at the same time does not wear his religion on his sleeve so to speak.
I'm sorry if I offended but this is how I feel. I hope you'll respect my right to have one.
pink_fortitude
Banned
RE: Long and rambling road of thought...
Candi, I am very happy that you know a real christian!!! :7 :7 :7 I know that I mess up big time ALOT, and that I say things that I shouldn't at times, frequently actually. I know that I can make God look bad because of some of the things that I do, but I don't want anyone to see God in a bad light or turn away from Him because of myself or others' mistakes. I will not defend any other "christians" actions or words against you or anyone else, but as long as you see someone that is actually walking the talk you know that there are good christians out there, and that makes me happy. I am sorry if I attacked you in any way, I didn't mean to. I do feel very passionately about this, probably just like you do. I just don't want you to think that we are all the same.
Missy
Candi, I am very happy that you know a real christian!!! :7 :7 :7 I know that I mess up big time ALOT, and that I say things that I shouldn't at times, frequently actually. I know that I can make God look bad because of some of the things that I do, but I don't want anyone to see God in a bad light or turn away from Him because of myself or others' mistakes. I will not defend any other "christians" actions or words against you or anyone else, but as long as you see someone that is actually walking the talk you know that there are good christians out there, and that makes me happy.
I am sorry if I attacked you in any way, I didn't mean to. I do feel very passionately about this, probably just like you do. I just don't want you to think that we are all the same.Missy
Bobbi
Cathlete
RE: Long and rambling road of thought...
Aww, thanks. One thing I love about posting is I don't have to see that glazed over look that hits the eyes of folks I expound to in real life. Happily my neghvor is one of my best friends and she loves to listen to me. I really need to take a leaf from her book and learn how to listen much better. I swear it's all those siblings! I had to be pretty sneaky and determined to get my point of view across!
And you are right too. I'd have to pass up on many lovely relationships if I wasn't willing to tone down my beliefs and let friends and family simply have thiers. In cyber space though, it's not so easy to do that since you don't have to risk being yelled at or losing your temper or having a real time argument.
It makes you think...
ETA: You are the bomb for caring for women as you do and I hope you know that!
Bobbi http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/chicken.gif "Chick's rule!"
Tell me, what it is you plan to do with your one wild and precious life? -Mary Oliver
Aww, thanks. One thing I love about posting is I don't have to see that glazed over look that hits the eyes of folks I expound to in real life. Happily my neghvor is one of my best friends and she loves to listen to me.
I really need to take a leaf from her book and learn how to listen much better. I swear it's all those siblings! I had to be pretty sneaky and determined to get my point of view across! And you are right too. I'd have to pass up on many lovely relationships if I wasn't willing to tone down my beliefs and let friends and family simply have thiers. In cyber space though, it's not so easy to do that since you don't have to risk being yelled at or losing your temper or having a real time argument.
It makes you think...
ETA: You are the bomb for caring for women as you do and I hope you know that!
Bobbi http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/chicken.gif "Chick's rule!"
Tell me, what it is you plan to do with your one wild and precious life? -Mary Oliver