Anti-Gay Sentiment Surprise. An "Ugh" rant.

LaughingWater

LaughingWater

Cathlete
My brother is gay. 2 of our closest friends are gay. We like gay people just as much as anyone else...and sometimes more. :D

Today, we heard the word "f*g" from the mouth of one of my teen daughter's friends, and it was quickly repeated by her mother. As the conversation unfolded, I learned that these people we've been getting to know over the past year may be seriously homophobic. Total news flash to me, as they are so nice, and we get along with them quite well. Their opinion about gay people (it all "sickens" them) doesn't blend at all with the rest of the family's collective personality. I was stunned.

On one hand, I understand that not everybody is as comfortable with homosexuality as we are. I realize that we all need to learn how to coexist with each other in a patient, compassionate manner.

On the other hand, I can't stomach that crap and am not sure how patient I should be. I brought up my brother in a diplomatic fashion, and thankfully the conversation stopped, but I can't believe we're still discussing this in 2009. Honestly. If these people were from an older generation, I'd cut them some slack, but they're in their early 40s!

My 80 year old parents are better adjusted.

Ugh.
 
The continued anti-gay sentiment in this country is repugnant, IMO.

It's tough, but why not try to lead by example here? Give the friendship more time. When anti-gay comments come up, gently refute them or state your own opinion. Have they ever met your brother? If they make a nasty remark say something like, "do you think XXX is like that?" I think most hatred is steeped in ignorance; sometimes all it takes is a seed of a new idea to be planted And while they may always be uncomfortable with homosexuality they may at the very least give up the name calling and nasty remarks.

People can change.:)
 
I sympathize with how you feel. It's happened to me a few times that I really liked someone and then heard them make some kind of hateful remark against a minority group. It's hard for me to not just walk away and have nothing further to do with them. It causes me to look at them in a whole different way, and it's not a good way. It's very disappointing, isn't it?
 
I think this is just one of those battles that you have to choose to fight indirectly. You won't change their mind or "educate" them, but you also don't have to tolerate listening to them either.
Next time something like that comes up in conversation, I'd just cut them off and say something like "you know, several of my family and friends are gay, and I'm really not up for that kind of conversation".

If they choose to battle it with you, you may have to decide how much you want to be friends with them going forward. Hopefully, that can just be one of those things that you don't talk about and agree to disagree about.

I also have family and friends that are gay. I've learned not to try to fight that battle on their behalf. There are people out there that are truly terrified of what they don't understand. All you can do is hold fast to your beliefs and not tolerate anyone else bashing them in your presence.
 
Yeah, I can't stand any kind of discriminatory remarks in any manner. I honestly don't understand it at all. Living in Vermont, where people tend to be very open minded (generally), I really don't hear it that much. I have, however, become involved in heated discussions with people about the gay marriage issue, including my husband. I'm very much for it and was happy as hell when Vermont became the first state to pass legislation legalizing gay marriage. I look forward to a day when all people are accepted as equals. I hope that day comes soon.
 
Just try to keep in mind that not everybody comes from an open minded community/family. People are taught to feel that way. They aren't "bad" people, just ignorant. They may have had no interaction with gay people other than what they have been told. I would use the opportunity to open dialogue with them about the fact that you have a family member and friends who are gay and that they really are good people and that the judgment and harsh words are very hurtful. If they continue to bash in front of you, then you know what kind of people they are at heart. But they may eventually chill out with a little education. Or not.

IMHO - It's ok NOT to agree with people being gay though. As much as it is OK to think it's a perfectly acceptable alternate lifestyle. It's everyone's right to believe it is right or wrong. It isn't our right though to impose our beliefs on someone else and bash the other side.
 
Liann said:
Just try to keep in mind that not everybody comes from an open minded community/family. People are taught to feel that way. They aren't "bad" people, just ignorant. They may have had no interaction with gay people other than what they have been told. I would use the opportunity to open dialogue with them about the fact that you have a family member and friends who are gay and that they really are good people and that the judgment and harsh words are very hurtful. If they continue to bash in front of you, then you know what kind of people they are at heart. But they may eventually chill out with a little education. Or not.

IMHO - It's ok NOT to agree with people being gay though. As much as it is OK to think it's a perfectly acceptable alternate lifestyle. It's everyone's right to believe it is right or wrong. It isn't our right though to impose our beliefs on someone else and bash the other side.
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I understand what you are saying, Liann. By the other token though, wouldn't the same be true for racism? Some people grew/grow up in communities and families where racism is deeply rooted and I am sure fear plays a role in that too.

I think it is okay to not being able to relate to people with a different lifestyle and if it was a choice to "engage" in this lifestyle I probably would be a little more understanding of people who oppose it. But being gay is not a choice, this is how people are born. They can't change it, just like people can't change the color of their skin (unless your name is Michael Jackson, of course :eek:)
 
I'm not defending them at all. Just trying to explain where they might be coming from and how to confront it. Sometimes it helps to understand the background to know how best to deal with the person. Getting angry and defensive right off (and not saying the OP was) because someone is not as enlightened or open minded as you are, isn't going to help the situation.

My family is very religious and to them being gay is NOT a choice it is a sin. I'm never going to change their opinion. They aren't evil people, they aren't racist people. They just believe it is scripturaly (however you spell that) wrong. Would they mistreat a gay person or talk badly about one - NEVER. Would they stand in picket lines to oppose gay marriage - no. In their hearts, is gay marriage right - hell no, but they wouldn't stand in the way of someone doing it. It's none of their business and they know that everyone has different beliefs. We agree to disagree. They don't push their beliefs on me and I don't try to change them. It's definitely a TOUCHY subject for a lot of people.
 
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Liann said:
IMHO - It's ok NOT to agree with people being gay though. As much as it is OK to think it's a perfectly acceptable alternate lifestyle. It's everyone's right to believe it is right or wrong. It isn't our right though to impose our beliefs on someone else and bash the other side.
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Supporting equal rights for gay people isn't a matter of imposing beliefs/bashing others. It's social justice. Of course, it's a person's right to be anti-gay. Those of us in favor of equal rights for gays must accept that. What we cannot accept though is how anti-gay sentiment creates and reinforces social injustice. In our country, institutionalized discrimination of people because of sexual orientation should be, and WILL be, against the law.
 
pixiesis said:
Supporting equal rights for gay people isn't a matter of imposing beliefs/bashing others. It's social justice. Of course, it's a person's right to be anti-gay. Those of us in favor of equal rights for gays must accept that. What we cannot accept though is how anti-gay sentiment creates and reinforces social injustice. In our country, institutionalized discrimination of people because of sexual orientation should be, and WILL be, against the law.
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I don't think believing it is wrong automatically throws you into the "anti-gay" group. It just means that you personally have a faith that believes it isn't right and so you aren't going to participate in it. That is what I think everyone has a right to believe or not to believe. The whole social injustice side of it only comes into play when those who don't agree with it start imposing their beliefs on everyone else and discriminate against those who are gay - not letting them get married, not letting them have equal rights, etc... I think we are all on the same page here. You are preaching to the choir with me.
 
pixiesis said:
What we cannot accept though is how anti-gay sentiment creates and reinforces social injustice. In our country, institutionalized discrimination of people because of sexual orientation should be, and WILL be, against the law.
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I agree completely. Disliking homosexuality on a personal/scriptural level is one thing and absolutely within a person's rights. There's a larger legal issue here though. AFAIC, the state absolutely positively unequivocally does not have the right to tell two consenting adults that they can not enter into an otherwise legal contract with each other (and that is what marriage is, under the law, a legal contract) simply because of their gender. That is illegal discrimination every day of the week. And it completely fries my bacon that people who will go off about government meddling in our lives will support a ban on gay marriage!!

On a personal level, god, let these people live their lives!
 
sparrow13 said:
And it completely fries my bacon that people who will go off about government meddling in our lives will support a ban on gay marriage!!
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ITA! I'll never understand why the people who are so vehemently against this care? What is it to them??? The pure hatred that comes across is so scary too.
 
nancy324 said:
It's very disappointing, isn't it?
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I think this is mainly what I'm feeling. I understand everyone is different, and learning to get along in spite of our differences is a skill that should be well developed, but the disappointment is what is really stinging me. I don't blink when someone disagrees with me about abortion, homeschooling, religion, and/or various political issues. I don't even need someone to fully accept or support homosexuality (heck, I have family members who are weirded out by it). It's the ugly speech and the insinuation that they'd treat a gay person differently.

I didn't get angry, and I kept the conversation non-judgmental. I've kept the lines of communication open. The mom and I email each other, and I shot her a quick note later in the day the way I normally would. My hope is that we can pick up where we left off, and that either we'll have some respectful discussions about this sometime in our future, or at the very least, hateful speech won't be used in front of me or my kids.

I called my sister, who has run into the same problem, and we both agreed that the problem is when our desire to be kind, compassionate, and tolerant no longer mixes well with our ethics. It's figuring out where to draw the line.

Sparrow, this made me think of the Buddhist saying, "Difficult people are our best teachers." :) I think this qualifies as difficult for both sides ~ here's hoping we all learn something.

Thanks, Everybody. You all have given me good points to consider! And as usual, it just feels good to come here and post, getting it off my chest.
 
Liann said:
I don't think believing it is wrong automatically throws you into the "anti-gay" group. It just means that you personally have a faith that believes it isn't right and so you aren't going to participate in it. That is what I think everyone has a right to believe or not to believe. The whole social injustice side of it only comes into play when those who don't agree with it start imposing their beliefs on everyone else and discriminate against those who are gay - not letting them get married, not letting them have equal rights, etc... I think we are all on the same page here. You are preaching to the choir with me.
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Liann, I really didn't mean to preach at YOU. I don't think you are defending any kind of anti-gay position. I know it's touchy for people with a religion that teaches them to see homosexuality as a sin.

Of course we can't do anything to change peoples' minds. I agree with you on that. But, their mindset, among other things, is exactly what has led us to discriminate against gay people, so there is clear link between those who believe that homosexuality is a sin and social injustice. Their mindset legitimizes discrimination, and leads them to take political actions seeking to continue this discrimination. Of course, you said your family doesn't fall into this category of activism, but you also said that they don't support gay marriage, so if given the chance to vote on it, they'd probably vote against gay marriage. This vote is a vote for social injustice, isn't it?

My larger point is, of course people are entitled to their beliefs, but when their beliefs are discriminatory, they shouldn't have any influence on laws. Our country needs to stick to, and broaden, our founding principles of liberty and justice for all. And I'm not saying you disagree with this, I'm just stating my position. ;)
 
I just wanted to say how awesome it is to read this thread and see the discussion unfold in such a respectful, thoughtful manner. Why can't it be like this in real life? Disagreements and different points of view are the reality of life, but they don't have to get nasty and hurtful.

Kudos, ladies, for talking about it in an intelligent, compassionate manner :).

Jennifer
 
pixiesis said:
Of course, you said your family doesn't fall into this category of activism, but you also said that they don't support gay marriage, so if given the chance to vote on it, they'd probably vote against gay marriage. This vote is a vote for social injustice, isn't it?
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You know, I wonder what they would do about that. My parents don't really care what other people do - they've mellowed out a LOT with age. I would imagine they wouldn't bother voting at all! ;)
 
jennifermaria said:
Kudos, ladies, for talking about it in an intelligent, compassionate manner.
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I agree.

For those reading who find themselves on the other side of the fence, I'll state again that I understand that not everyone is as comfortable with homosexuality as I am. Being completely supportive of the gay community is not a requirement to be friends with me :) . My only beef is with hateful language and discriminatory behavior. That's all.

Some of my in-laws are a tad homophobic, but they try very hard to be respectful in my presence, and they are extremely kind to my brother. I'm quite thankful for that.
 
Liann said:
You know, I wonder what they would do about that. My parents don't really care what other people do - they've mellowed out a LOT with age. I would imagine they wouldn't bother voting at all! ;)
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Well, I think I overstepped my bounds in imagining how your parents would vote. I'm sorry about that! :eek: I should have used some hypothetical people to make that point.

My parents have mellowed too, like soooo much. It's really amazing--we have so much in common now! :D
 
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