Anti-Gay Sentiment Surprise. An "Ugh" rant.

[meowracer]

I cannot begin to imagine what it would be like to be gay in this country. My brother is gay too and a teacher. He would be fired, possibly, if it got out that he is gay. He feels shame at times b/c he can't be himself. His partner, who lives in Argentina, cannot come to this country so that they can be together (my brother lived in Argentina for several years though). Grey's Anatomy (I think last week? I was watching it on DVR so not sure) was great. Had some very good discussion on being gay. Worth it to go back and watch online. Anway, I told my brother about this and he commented in the discussion that all of the straight people who go about preaching on the sanctity of marriage are often divorced and remarried, cheating, not treating their partner as they should, etc. So true.

By the way, my brother wrote an amazing book called Prairie Springs and it deals with acceptance. It is fiction and very funny. It's available on Amazon if anybody is interested. Here is a link: http://www.amazon.com/Prairie-Sprin...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256136701&sr=8-1 I promise you will laugh and not want to put it down - and I don't say this just b/c he is my brother

To the original topic, though, I think that it is only right to stand your ground, be kind, but I could not be close to people who are like that.

 

[Liann]

Well, I think I overstepped my bounds in imagining how your parents would vote. I'm sorry about that! I should have used some hypothetical people to make that point.

My parents have mellowed too, like soooo much. It's really amazing--we have so much in common now!

Oh Amy it didn't bother me at all!!! It did make me stop and think for a minute. I was not offended at all!

 

[LauraMax]

Supporting equal rights for gay people isn't a matter of imposing beliefs/bashing others. It's social justice. Of course, it's a person's right to be anti-gay. Those of us in favor of equal rights for gays must accept that. What we cannot accept though is how anti-gay sentiment creates and reinforces social injustice. In our country, institutionalized discrimination of people because of sexual orientation should be, and WILL be, against the law.

That's pretty much the way I feel, except I don't feel it's a right to be anti-gay. Well, I suppose it is, but then I suppose it's also a right to be anti-black or anti-Jewish.

I don't feel that it's OK for people to believe what they want to believe if it's horribly wrong & discriminatory. From my perspective, saying it's OK for someone to dislike gays is akin to saying it's OK for people to dislike african americans or hispanics. Or people with big birthmarks or Down's Syndrome. Being gay is not a choice, it's how people are born.

I kinda wish being gay was a choice, I'd swear off men in a heartbeat!

Anyway, it is a matter of social justice, & also social consciousness. I feel like I would be irresponsible if I heard something like that & didn't at least say it was wrong. It's true people are raised in ignorance, but that doesn't mean we should just accept it & move on. Besides, with all the hate in the world, why on earth would anyone be against two people loving each other?

BTW, did you all know that the bible doesn't say anything about gay women? It does say it's wrong for men to sleep together, but not a word about women. Hmmm, I wonder why that would be?

 

[LaughingWater]

Shana, I'm going to check out that book. Thanks for the link!

Anyway, it is a matter of social justice, & also social consciousness. I feel like I would be irresponsible if I heard something like that & didn't at least say it was wrong.

That's the issue my sister and I were discussing yesterday. When do you speak up and how?

I definitely let this woman know that I don't subscribe to her way of thinking, but I didn't come out and say, "You know, you shouldn't use that word. It's offensive."

Though it wouldn't have been wrong to say, I felt it would have made her feel defensive and angry, which in turn would negatively affect our future dealings with each other. She probably would have written me off right then and there.

One could say, "Who cares? You want friends like this?" But they truly are very nice people, and this may be a hang up of theirs that can be changed over time (even if only slightly), especially if they have positive experiences with people who think differently. We're also linked through a larger social network ~ we know and hang out with many of the same people ~ so a serious rift would be very uncomfortable.

The downside of being diplomatic is that I walked away feeling, like you said, irresponsible to a degree. I wanted to say, "Hey, that's not cool," but I instead elected to tread lightly. Though I didn't accept the behavior, and my response stopped the conversation, I still feel like I didn't fully defend my loved ones. That bugs me.

Ah well. Only time will figure this one out. It stinks. I just can't get over hearing the word they used coming out of a 12 year old's mouth. It's insane.

 

[kathryn]

There are a few things I don't get about the anti-gay-mariage debate :

1) isn't a committed, loving relationship (which is what marriage represents) better than promiscuous behavior (which is often what the haters perceive as part of "the gay lifestyle" --their words, not mine)?

2) why object to gay civil mariages? As for churches, each one would decide whether or not to perform ceremonies, depending on their beliefs (ie: most Southern Baptist churches would probably not be performing gay mariages). I don't think the government can dictate that a church HAS TO perform a gay mariage.

 

[Gayle]

Ah well. Only time will figure this one out. It stinks. I just can't get over hearing the word they used coming out of a 12 year old's mouth. It's insane.

You could let her know that you find that word offensive and don't want it used around YOUR daughter. That might give her a wake-up call.

I have to agree with Shana, I would also have trouble being close with someone like that.

 

[jonahnah]

Sorry but I can't tolerate anti-gay, anti-semitic, racist, bigoted remarks. Use of slurs like the ones these people used would have stopped me in my tracks.

When I first met my in-laws 24 years ago, they actually used a horrible slur for African-Americans. I let them know unequivacally that I wouldn't tolerate that word (other others like it) and that I didn't believe in discrimination. Well, it pretty much stopped all conversation at the holiday dinner table, but they stopped using it and moreover, it made them reconsider their views.

Flash forward to 2008 where both of my in-laws voted for Barack Obama and happily attended the wedding of their granddaughter and her partner in San Francisco.

People can change and sometimes, it just takes one person to stand their ground and say flat out, "That is wrong and this is why."

Religion was also used as an argument against inter-racial marriage in the 50s and 60s. It can be a convenient cover for all kinds of bigotry.

 

[Liann]

I don't think the government can dictate that a church HAS TO perform a gay mariage.

Actually, that is exactly what is going to happen someday. I don't think it will be that long before a pastor who truly believes it is morally wrong is going to be forced to perform the ceremony anyways because to not do it will be looked at as a hate crime or a social injustice.

ITA with Gayle. I see nothing wrong will telling her straight off that the bashing is offensive and that you nor your daughter appreciate it. The ball is in her court then as to how she decides to behave from that point on. If she continues in the same manner, then you could start thinking about where the friendship stands.

 

[LaughingWater]

I work so hard at trying to be diplomatic that DH says sometimes I go too far and let people walk all over me. Clearly I'm going to have to draw a line in the sand here.

Regarding forcing Churches to marry gay couples, I've thought about that over the years. There must be something that protects religions from performing a ceremony that goes against their specific beliefs. If the Catholic Church can refuse to marry people who have been divorced, can't they refuse to marry people who are gay?

 

[G.I.Jane]

the teens mother

Maybe the woman (teens mother) has had her heartbroken by a gay man. Have you ever seen the movie Brokeback Mountain? This might explain her behavior. I am not saying this is the right behavior, but it might be how she deals with it.

 

[pink_fortitude]

BTW, did you all know that the bible doesn't say anything about gay women?

It actually does, at the very least in Romans.

As for the subject at hand, I like Liann's response and generally try (it sometimes isn't easy) to put myself in other's shoes whenever I have discussions with someone who doesn't feel the same way that I do about something. Also, there have been times where someone said something that I think is offensive and I've just straight out asked them why they feel that way. It has actually started some great conversations and caused me to think deeper and reach an understanding and sometimes respect of some really neat people. Some things I also ask myself: is it my right to believe that everyone else should feel the same way I do about something? Why do I feel the way I do? What experiences have they had that make them feel the way that they do? Am I going to let this get in the way of our friendship? Those aren't questions addressed to this situation specifically but things I ask in general when I hear or see something I don't like. I think that sometimes we as people can be narrow minded w/o realizing that we are doing so and are no better than those we accuse (not saying that's what's happening here, but about people -myself included- in general). In this situation I would try to keep an open mind and show her the grace you want shown to your brother. That's what I normally do.

ETA that I'm sorry if her words hurt you because of your brother. (((hugs)))

Melissa

 

[TeTe]

I find it hard to believe that we can come up with some great excuses for why someone is homophobic. The OP said that a teenager used the term "fag" and her mother repeated it. Now, would we be so willing to "find out the reasons" they felt that way if the N-word had been used? Or if they called someone a "retard." Heck, I know people that won't let their kids use the word "stupid" to describe someone. But a derogatory word for a homosexual gets a pass. I don't buy it. I would have a very hard time with a family that uses that term, and is bringing their children up to think that saying something like that is okay.

If someone feels that way, yes, it is their right. We are fortunate enough to live in a country that doesn't punish anyone for their thoughts. If those thoughts and feelings drive someone to harm someone, that's another story.

As far as "maybe a gay guy broke her heart." Well, I've had my heart broken by a few men in my life, but I don't lump every man on the planet into the same category. I had friends murdered by two black men, but I don't hate all African-Americans because of it.

JMHO.

 

[pixiesis]

This discussion reminded me of false rumors being spread by the religious right, especially when it comes to hate crime legislation. Churches have the right to choose who they will and won't marry. It's not currently a crime to preach hate against groups already covered by federal hate crime laws, and it won't be a crime after sexual orientation is covered either.

Hate speech is not a hate crime as long as it doesn't directly incite violence. Hate speech, like other speech, is protected by the first amendment.

I thought this was a good story on this subject:
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/10/13/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5381671.shtml

And to the OP, I'm sorry I never responded to your situation. I totally sympathize with how awkward this was for you. I can't say that I would have responded differently. I think it makes sense to first take some distance from the situation to think about what you want to do/say. It sounds like that's what you are doing. I also don't think it's your job to change their mind. But I do think that you can and should find a way to be true to yourself. Good luck!

 

[Liann]

I hope you don't think I was trying to excuse their behavior hon! It's never ok to say hateful things like that. I think there is a lot of ignorance and hate out there. I do think people can change though and if you know how to react to something like that, it can really open up a good dialogue. It's sad to see that that mother is passing on the same bias that was passed on to her. It's not ok and I thought the OP had every right to speak up about it. The part about a gay guy breaking her heart cracked me up though.

I find it hard to believe that we can come up with some great excuses for why someone is homophobic. The OP said that a teenager used the term "fag" and her mother repeated it. Now, would we be so willing to "find out the reasons" they felt that way if the N-word had been used? Or if they called someone a "retard." Heck, I know people that won't let their kids use the word "stupid" to describe someone. But a derogatory word for a homosexual gets a pass. I don't buy it. I would have a very hard time with a family that uses that term, and is bringing their children up to think that saying something like that is okay.

If someone feels that way, yes, it is their right. We are fortunate enough to live in a country that doesn't punish anyone for their thoughts. If those thoughts and feelings drive someone to harm someone, that's another story.

As far as "maybe a gay guy broke her heart." Well, I've had my heart broken by a few men in my life, but I don't lump every man on the planet into the same category. I had friends murdered by two black men, but I don't hate all African-Americans because of it.

JMHO.

 

[pixiesis]

That's pretty much the way I feel, except I don't feel it's a right to be anti-gay. Well, I suppose it is, but then I suppose it's also a right to be anti-black or anti-Jewish.

I don't feel that it's OK for people to believe what they want to believe if it's horribly wrong & discriminatory. From my perspective, saying it's OK for someone to dislike gays is akin to saying it's OK for people to dislike african americans or hispanics. Or people with big birthmarks or Down's Syndrome. Being gay is not a choice, it's how people are born.

I know what you mean Laura! I hate, well, hatred and intolerance and I find it completely wrong and immoral. But it's legal to hold these views and to speak out about them, and I think it should be. I don't think we should have a "thought police" or try to legislate "morally correct" thinking and speech, even if it happens to coincide with my views.

 

[TeTe]

Liann, sweetie, I didn't think you were making excuses for that behavior. And, you're right, I do believe people can change. Thank goodness!

And, Ms. Pixiesis, I totally agree. There was a régime about 60 years ago that tried to govern people's thoughts, ideas, and views, and the outcome was horrific.

 

[LauraMax]

It actually does, at the very least in Romans.

Melissa

Hmmm that's interesting, thanks Melissa. I'd heard that on a History channel documentary, but I guess they missed that passage, which apparently has been the basis of anti-gay religious philosophy. How infuriating!

Romans 1:26-27:

The text reads (in the King James Version):

Romans 1:26-27: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence [sic] of their error which was meet."
​

This passage is unique in that it is the only place in the Bible that refers to same-gender sexual behavior by women. Bennett Sims, the former Episcopal bishop of Atlanta, believes that these verses have done more to form Christians' negative opinion of homosexuality than any other single passage in the Bible. He writes: "For most of us who seriously honor Scripture these verses still stand as the capital New Testament text that unequivocally prohibits homosexual behavior. More prohibitively, this text has been taken to mean that even a same-sex inclination is reprehensible, so that a type of humanity known as 'homosexual' has steadily become the object of contempt and discrimination." 1

 

[lori254]

So sad. My uncle has not spoken to his only son in over 30 years, when my cousin came out to him. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that he stopped speaking to me several months ago when he learned that the man I love is black. Sad

 

[diane57]

Even though it seems everyone on this thread is pretty much on the same page, and opposed to anti-gay sentiment, I cannot resist adding the following in response to the Bible passage quoted. (I am not offering this as a criticism or rebuttal of that post, it just reminded me of it.) This circulated on the internet several years after Dr. Laura Schlessinger made her infamous "gays and lesbians are biological errors" statement. It always makes me laugh.

Dear Dr. Laura,
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

 

[LauraMax]

Even though it seems everyone on this thread is pretty much on the same page, and opposed to anti-gay sentiment, I cannot resist adding the following in response to the Bible passage quoted. (I am not offering this as a criticism or rebuttal of that post, it just reminded me of it.) This circulated on the internet several years after Dr. Laura Schlessinger made her infamous "gays and lesbians are biological errors" statement. It always makes me laugh.

Dear Dr. Laura,
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

That was very clever. Thanks for the smile Diane.