to fellow vegans

[sparrow13]

I see merit with both arguments, especially with GettingFitMom comments on hunting and farming. I've often wondered about issues that relate to animal cruelty, especially veal and lamb used in pet food. I've noticed a huge amount of members have cats and dogs as do many of my neighbors (and myself). In light of not eating eggs, I'm curious if you feed your pets animals products, such as lamb, veal or duck? I'm not flaming anyone, or trying to start something here, I'm truly curious about how vegans or vegitarians think about that.

I do feed my cats meat via Wellness brand pet food. My goal with my animals is to keep them in their "natural" lives as much as possible, and cats are dedicated carnivores, according to all the research I've done (if I am wrong, someone please do correct me!) which means that they need to eat meat. In fact when Comet developed diabetes one of the things I learned was that feeding cats a lot of stuff they don't need, such as the grains and fillers in most wet/dry cat foods may be responsible for the uptick in feline diabetes over the years. So, my cats get meat with no grain.

Of course it's not always possible to keep them in the life they would be living naturally, and in all honesty, that bugs me on an ethical level. But as with so many ethical questions, we do the best we can, you know?

BTW I do eat eggs. I just make sure I know the farmer.

 

[sparrow13]

There's a possibility that some may read this thread and feel defensive about their way of life.

To those of you who might be put off by this discussion, please understand that we aren't targeting or judging anyone. I know I've said this before, but it's worth repeating: My husband and children eat animal products. Add to that, my brother-in-law and nephew are hunters, and my brother used to own a sheep farm where they killed sheep and pigs.

Are they bad people? No.

I do think they suffer from a degree of ignorance, though it's not the "ignorance" many have come to associate with the very insulting "stupid." It's a simple not-knowing, for lack of a better term. Not quite seeing things as they are ~ maybe a kind of mental blindness.

We all suffer from this kind of ignorance in one fashion or another. I know my faults well, and I have no doubt I'm ignorant in ways that currently escape my awareness. I do my best to learn and erase as much of my ignorance as possible though. (I fear I'll need several lifetimes to get it all done! )

Anywho, this has been a nice discussion. I personally don't mind someone challenging my way of thinking, so I welcome hunters and farmers and lovers of hamburger to the table, but I would appreciate a respectful exchange. I'm not smarter or more evolved than anyone here, but I'm not ridiculous either.



Edited to add: Dudes, look how many people have viewed this thread!!!

Lori, beautifully said as usual. I too, am well aware of my ignorance. In fact just a few years ago I probably would have been rolling my eyes at this thread. I would have been so judgmental, "why worry so much about animals when there are abused children? Get your priorities right!" Over time I've come to realize though that everyone contributes his or her part, and that's a wonderful thing. I may be out there stumping for animal rights and SOLE food (Sustainable, Organic, Local, Ethical) while others are working to protect the elderly, or stop the genocide in Darfur, or to prevent destruction of the rain forest. The quilt of humanity is sewn by many hands and there is no need for us to pass judgment on others' choice of threads. OK I am done torturing the sewing metaphor.

On Buddhism, oh yeah, my meditation is awful too! I have serious monkey mind. But I recently heard Pema Chodron comment that she has a pretty lousy meditation technique and has spent the last thirty years talking to people about it, and that made me feel better.

 

[morningstar]

Speaking of choices and harm, I was raised Buddhist in a strongly Buddhist family. That choice literally caused the death of my father (I will not explain how; it's very painful) when I was 7 years old and caused irreparable harm to me and my siblings. Most people think Buddhism is harmless- I consider it to be extremely dangerous, just like all religions, faiths and philosophies have the potential to be.

 

[Afreet]

But not drinking milk from a cow bea=cause it is intended for the calf????? How ridiculious.

I don't think it's ridiculous at all. There are lots of cultures who didn't historically use dairy products - Native Americans, China, Japan, etc. There are also lots of human societies that eat almost no meat. This isn't a totally modern invention.

I just heard a report on NPR recently about the island of Icaria, where people live unusually long lives. They walk a lot, drink herbal tea, and eat mostly fruits and vegetables with very little (or no) meat or dairy.

 

[sparrow13]

Speaking of choices and harm, I was raised Buddhist in a strongly Buddhist family. That choice literally caused the death of my father (I will not explain how; it's very painful) when I was 7 years old and caused irreparable harm to me and my siblings. Most people think Buddhism is harmless- I consider it to be extremely dangerous, just like all religions, faiths and philosophies have the potential to be.

Gosh, I'm so sorry. I absolutely agree with you though. Any thought/value/belief system has the potential to be extremely dangerous and I don't exempt Buddhism from that statement.

 

[Afreet]

We live in an interdependant world. All of us live at the expense of many who die. This includes plants. Plants have been shown to feel pain.

As far as I know no reputable study has ever shown that plants can feel pain - in fact, there was an episode of Mythbusters in which they pretty conclusively demonstrate that plants do not feel pain. Plants have no central nervous system and no brain.

I think Jo Stepeniak (visit her website, Grassroots Vegan, here) dealt with this question pretty elegantly:

All living creatures consume other living things in order to survive. This is a basic fact of life. Unlike many other animals, however, human beings have a choice about what they eat. For vegans, this choice hinges on the issue of sentience, which is easily ascertained by using plain observation and common sense.

There is no scientific reason to believe that plants bring a consciousness or psychological presence to the world. Plants do not have a brain or central nervous system. Therefore, they lack the fundamental mechanisms to experience pleasure, pain, and suffering. Fear and pain would serve no purpose in plants because they are unable to escape any threat.

Any rational person understands the striking difference between slitting the throat of a sentient animal and plucking a fruit or vegetable. Conscionable people are repulsed by animal slaughter; no one is revolted by gleaning crops. Even if there were grounds for acknowledging a sensate component of plants, vegans consume far fewer resources, including plants, than either people on a meat-based diet or vegetarians who eat eggs and dairy products.

Although vegans could theoretically consume just the fruit of plants instead of whole plants, minute life in the soil, air, and water would still be destroyed. In fact, merely by participating in most activities of modern life we inadvertently harm others -- by walking on the Earth, building roads, using resources found below the Earth's surface, driving cars, erecting buildings, burning wood, or planting flowers, among many, many others. Even the acts of breathing, blinking, and swallowing can decimate tiny life forms.

So, do we just give up? No, of course not. Nevertheless, we must acknowledge that vegan perfection is not only unattainable and impractical but that striving for it detracts from the true purpose of "ahimsa" -- alleviating suffering by doing the least harm and the most good. The unfounded rationalization that plants may feel pain would be an absurd justification for the needless killing of obviously sentient beings.

 

[LurkingLori]

what about...

Cadbury Eggs? Are those hens treated inhumanely? I would hate to have to give those up.

Seriously though, I really appreciate this thread. It has been eye opening and thought provoking.

 

[Peaceful Rainbow]

and cats are dedicated carnivores, according to all the research I've done (if I am wrong, someone please do correct me!) which means that they need to eat meat.

You are right, I believe the word I hear used is obligate carnivores. However, cats eating fresh food, would be eating the contents of the stomach which in prey species would almost always be vegetable matter, so their food isn't 100% meat, just very close to it.

 

[morningstar]

As far as I know no reputable study has ever shown that plants can feel pain - in fact, there was an episode of Mythbusters in which they pretty conclusively demonstrate that plants do not feel pain. Plants have no central nervous system and no brain.

Interesting webpage you may want to read, if not believe:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_can_a_plant_feel_pain_without_a_nervous_system

No one wants to believe plants feel pain- certainly, I don't want to believe it. But I've had many fisherman tell me that fish don't feel pain when they are hooked and dragged through water. We believe what we want to believe- what gets us through the long cold night of existance.

 

[morningstar]

Cadbury Eggs? Are those hens treated inhumanely? I would hate to have to give those up.

Seriously though, I really appreciate this thread. It has been eye opening and thought provoking.

At the least, they contain milk!

 

[LaughingWater]

MorningStar, I'm so sorry you had such a bad experience. Like Sparrow said, anything has the potential for being abused and turning ugly, and I regret that has happened in your case.

DirtDiva, you've brought up the issue I'm wrestling with currently. In addition to buying animal products for my family, I also cook for my dog. As a fitting exclamation point to this post, I'm about 5 minutes away from frying up egg whites for my 10 year old. *sigh*

 

[cindi1]

I also have cats and feed them the same food as Sparrow. I listen to a podcast (Veganfreak) that focuses on the ethical reasons for veganism. I won't go into their credentials - you can check them out on iTunes if you are interested.

But he spoke specifically to cats recently and said that cats shouldn't be fed a vegan diet. Last months podcast had an interesting discussion about the 'limitations' of veganism - meaning there are points where you just can't avoid using animal products. Thyroid medicine was the example.

I'm not a vegan, I am a vegetarian and find the podcasts enlightening. You can check them out on veganfreak.com too.

 

[morningstar]

My father's death was not the only horrible thing related to Buddhism in my life. I also knew a truly horrific person who was not only a Buddhist teacher, but considered himself to be enlightened and has a huge following around the world, even now, a few years after his death. He also had a huge impact on my family, as he was my family's teacher. Very charismatic, very powerful, and very very harmful to a great number of people.

I try not to be prejudiced against Buddhism, but it has been such a destructive force in my life that it is very difficult not to be.

 

[LaughingWater]

Wow, I don't blame you, MorningStar.

Though I've been reading about Buddhism for years and applying the philosophy to my life, I never had any interest in joining a temple or settling on a particular school. I'm a former Catholic, and I've had enough dogma to last me a lifetime. So no rituals, no temples, and no official Buddhist teachers for me.

I've noticed though that some people who come into Buddhism feel they absolutely must find a mentor or teacher. And once they do, they regard the teacher with such extreme reverence. It's almost hero worship, which alarms me. It's like some of them can't take a crap without checking with their guru first.

I'm sure there are wonderful traditional teachers out there, but I have no interest. (This attitude may explain why I was such a sh*tty Catholic. )

 

[sparrow13]

I don't blame you either, Morning Star.

I have no mentor or teacher either, and really don't have a huge interest. I've never done well with someone telling me what to do or how to be (except fitness instructors ) and while there may be some truly enlightened individuals who can teach with an open heart and mind, I think they are few and far between. Spiritual influence over others is an intoxicating power and far too many abuse it. I have gone to the local sangha a few times and participate in the book discussions but even that doesn't thrill me, to be honest. Mostly I do it to get out of the house.

 

[pixiesis]

I have a good friend who is a Zen Buddhist Priest. I've only known him and his wife for about 2 years (he's also an English prof). I feel I've spent enough time with him to know that he's very normal and kind and has no interest in converting or influencing anyone. He has a sense of humor about himself and the world and does not act like he is holier or better than others. In fact, he won't tell anyone about it unless they have first expressed an interest and he asks that people who know do the same (whoops! ). His wife occasionally participates but not often; their kids don't seem to participate at all. I'm not really involved in it, though I've attended the service a few times (it's strictly meditation, no one talks). I found it relaxing but after awhile it was too painful to hold the meditation pose. I don't know about other types of Buddhism, but my little bit of exposure to Zen Buddhism and a Zen Buddhist Priest has been very benign and pleasant.

I am sorry though that any philsophy/religious tradition can be used to dominate and abuse. I'm sure this happens in the vegan community too.

Amy

 

[LaughingWater]

Amy, he sounds like a great guy. I wouldn't mind a meditation teacher or participating in a book discussion actually. "Benign and pleasant" is right up my alley.

 

[Vee]

Since some of us are talking Buddhism, here is my take. Buddha from my readings and interpretation did not intend to invent a religion. Buddha is supposed to have said that every one must find his/her own path to enlightenment. His "teachings" from what I interpret were not intended as "rules" but as "guides". So "teachings" in my opinion is not a good word to describe the "sharings" of Buddha. Another issue is that Buddha did not write his "sharings" himself. They were recorded by people who decided to be his followers and I suspect there is some degree of distrortion from their understanding and interpretation. There are therefore several contradicting accounts of "Buddhism" and at least three formal sub-sects. Any traditional worship of a Buddha "idol" or even in a dualistic interpretation of God, for instance, is not consistent with what I understand of Buddha's wisdom, but some believe differently than me. My own impression is that Buddha transcended religion and pursued spirituality without any label or boundary. So to me Buddhist means someone who seeks inspiration for their own spiritual journey from Buddha's "sharings" rather than a traditional participant of a formal religion.

 

[LaughingWater]

Now that appeals to me!

I've never considered Buddhism my "religion," which is why I go out of my way to refer to it as a philosophy or way of life. My sister, who doesn't get it and thinks everyone should worship something, thinks I pray to Buddha. I've tried explaining that I, in fact, do not and why...but I haven't been successful.

 

[kathryn]

All of us live at the expense of many who die. This includes plants. Plants have been shown to feel pain.

That 'secret life of plants' experiment was debunked long ago. (And even if it were valid, eating animals results in eating more plants than if one were to eat them directly).