to fellow vegans

[Vee]

Lori,

a. Children are influenced by the acts and behaviour of parents a lot more than their words, so your children are already imbibing that mommy is vegetarian. That isnt the same as active lobbying to influence children. It is akin to either parent belonging to different faiths and deciding to let their children make up their own minds, in their own time on religion. They answer questions but they dont make it seem necessary to make a choice and dont pressurize.
b. I have known of children/people giving up animal products from the general idea / using their minds to connect the dots, without reading literature or seeing video footage. People can turn vegetarian before becoming fully aware of exactly how cruel the process is. If this happens, your husband will be upset...but he will learn in time to deal with it.

If they ask to see footage, in your shoes I would ask them to wait until they are older. I would explain that visuals can be disturbing and I would want them to be old enough to see them with a mature mind. By calling visuals disturning you arent really saying anything new to perturb them - children can connect why something like slaughter will seem disturbing without it being spelt out to them.

If they ask questions about cruelty to animals, I would only provide the least gory and least detailed responses possible. When they learn to find answers with independant enquiry and research to their questions (not just this one) they will discover more for themselves. Or perhaps when they turn into young adults would be the right time to explain in detail.

Keep in mind I am not a mom. Also, vegetarians abound in my society, so I may not comprehend just how tough this may be for your husband. I may be very wrong in my approach!

 

[Katerchen]

I have done some research because of this thread.

Cutting out all animal protein is unhealthy and peoples that do so are malnuritished, shorter, shorter life expectancy etc (according to Who and other scientific magazines/websites.) At least some eggs and dairy are necessary...

However, just because people are on top of the food chain there is no reason why animals are treated the way they are. And I kinda thought is was different in the U.S. simply because the farms are so huge and have the room to have "happy cows" for example (I know, I am naive). This factory farming has been an issue when I was in High School over 20 years ago. And I actually thought, since the public opinion (at least in Europe) was so negative about factory farming that is would be phased out by now. Europe passed a law in 2000 (?) to phase out chicken factory farming by 2017 but this law is expected to be overturned.

I do not think that just quit eating meat/animal products will solve anything, simply vegetarians are in the minority (4 % in the U.S.). What a person can do is rallying together a crowd and email/write/call state senators, congressmen, headquarter of Walmart etc. to please support the ethical treatment of animals. Write letters to the local newspapers, make waves that more people are made aware of the problem. Get on peoples nerves but stay away from the paramilitant animal rights organizations that are doing more harm than good and turn a lot of people off.

Publix is advertising their chickens as being humanely raised and treated. I do not know if that is true but their chicken breast is $4.99/lbs, two dollars more than the one at Walmart. Food prices would definately increase if we discontinue factory farming simply because there would be less meat overall. A lot of people would not like that, a lot of people could not afford that (is Publix making a true claim?).

But the meat we eat is only the tip of the iceberg. How about all the animal testing? These animals suffer for a long time compared to a "meat supplier." I only buy "not tested on animal" beauty products. How can someone justify to kill animals just to remove wrinkles (Botox)? Why does every High School and College Student disect pigs, cats, sharks, frogs etc. There is disection software available that would make these "fun" activities obsolete. Why do animal shelters put perfectly healthy and nice animals down?

 

[Afreet]

Cutting out all animal protein is unhealthy and peoples that do so are malnuritished, shorter, shorter life expectancy etc (according to Who and other scientific magazines/websites.) At least some eggs and dairy are necessary...

However, just because people are on top of the food chain there is no reason why animals are treated the way they are. And I kinda thought is was different in the U.S. simply because the farms are so huge and have the room to have "happy cows" for example (I know, I am naive). This factory farming has been an issue when I was in High School over 20 years ago. And I actually thought, since the public opinion (at least in Europe) was so negative about factory farming that is would be phased out by now. Europe passed a law in 2000 (?) to phase out chicken factory farming by 2017 but this law is expected to be overturned.

I do not think that just quit eating meat/animal products will solve anything, simply vegetarians are in the minority (4 % in the U.S.). What a person can do is rallying together a crowd and email/write/call state senators, congressmen, headquarter of Walmart etc. to please support the ethical treatment of animals. Write letters to the local newspapers, make waves that more people are made aware of the problem. Get on peoples nerves but stay away from the paramilitant animal rights organizations that are doing more harm than good and turn a lot of people off.

Publix is advertising their chickens as being humanely raised and treated. I do not know if that is true but their chicken breast is $4.99/lbs, two dollars more than the one at Walmart. Food prices would definately increase if we discontinue factory farming simply because there would be less meat overall. A lot of people would not like that, a lot of people could not afford that (is Publix making a true claim?).

But the meat we eat is only the tip of the iceberg. How about all the animal testing? These animals suffer for a long time compared to a "meat supplier." I only buy "not tested on animal" beauty products. How can someone justify to kill animals just to remove wrinkles (Botox)? Why does every High School and College Student disect pigs, cats, sharks, frogs etc. There is disection software available that would make these "fun" activities obsolete. Why do animal shelters put perfectly healthy and nice animals down?

Well, I have found much to agree with here, but much to disagree with as well.

I absolutely disagree that any animal products are necessary to be healthy. I know that there are some who don't seem to feel their best on a vegan diet, but again, vegetarianism isn't a new idea. Lots of people all over the world eschew animal products and are not malnourished. There have already been plenty of citations in this thread to research and books that demonstrate that a plant-based whole foods diet is pretty optimal for human health.

I agree that animal testing is wrong and I applaud your choice to avoid cosmetics that are tested on animals - that kind of testing is truly unnecessary. Animal testing is essentially obsolete now, but the majority of medical authorities have no standards to replace animal tests - and there is little political will to do so. Vegans are not unaware of these issues, and engage in many forms of protest against these kinds of tests. So do non-vegans.

I disagree that vegans should give up because we're in the minority. Suffragettes were in the minority. Abolitionists were in the minority. That is a completely terrible reason to abandon one's ethical beliefs. Also, although vegans and vegetarians are only a small sector of the American public, lots of people care about animal rights and are interested in creating meaningful change - and even if I were the only vegan in the world, I would still not agree that it is OK to eat animals, even if the grocery store assures me that they were happy while they were alive. I think it's wrong to kill them and eat them when I can be perfectly healthy eating plants.

Yes, food prices would increase if even the most incredibly minute changes were made to make animals slightly less miserable during their short, tortured lives. I know that would make some people unhappy. But frankly, I find the practices of raising animals for food to be so repugnant that I think it's worth some inconvenience to address this issue.

 

[Katerchen]

Well, I have found much to agree with here, but much to disagree with as well.

I absolutely disagree that any animal products are necessary to be healthy. I know that there are some who don't seem to feel their best on a vegan diet, but again, vegetarianism isn't a new idea. Lots of people all over the world eschew animal products and are not malnourished. There have already been plenty of citations in this thread to research and books that demonstrate that a plant-based whole foods diet is pretty optimal for human health.

I agree that animal testing is wrong and I applaud your choice to avoid cosmetics that are tested on animals - that kind of testing is truly unnecessary. Animal testing is essentially obsolete now, but the majority of medical authorities have no standards to replace animal tests - and there is little political will to do so. Vegans are not unaware of these issues, and engage in many forms of protest against these kinds of tests. So do non-vegans.

I disagree that vegans should give up because we're in the minority. Suffragettes were in the minority. Abolitionists were in the minority. That is a completely terrible reason to abandon one's ethical beliefs. Also, although vegans and vegetarians are only a small sector of the American public, lots of people care about animal rights and are interested in creating meaningful change - and even if I were the only vegan in the world, I would still not agree that it is OK to eat animals, even if the grocery store assures me that they were happy while they were alive. I think it's wrong to kill them and eat them when I can be perfectly healthy eating plants.

Yes, food prices would increase if even the most incredibly minute changes were made to make animals slightly less miserable during their short, tortured lives. I know that would make some people unhappy. But frankly, I find the practices of raising animals for food to be so repugnant that I think it's worth some inconvenience to address this issue.

Show me one scientific article that proves that human beings do not need animal protein. I mean a real scientific article, no opinion, no made-up claims by pseudo-physicians, no blog. Show me the prove in a medical journal - United States, Great Britain, France.

 

[hiitdogs]

Cutting out all animal protein is unhealthy and peoples that do so are malnuritished, shorter, shorter life expectancy etc (according to Who and other scientific magazines/websites.) At least some eggs and dairy are necessary...

Where does the WHO say that people who cut out animal protein are malnourished with shorter life expectancy? Where do they say that at least some eggs and dairy are necessary?

Look through the American Journal for Clincal Nutrition and you will find all kinds of articles referencing that animal protein is not necessary and in fact unhealthy. Here is a sampling:

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abs...INDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abs...INDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abs...INDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abs...INDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

There is very conclusive, scientific evidence that the consumption of dairy products promotes cancer growth. Ref: Dr. T. Colin Campbell, Cornell University, 2006 The China Study

In 2007 the World Cancer Research Fund published a 7-year long study about the links between cancer and diet, physical activity and body fat. It contained the recommendation to eat whole plant based food. This study was published in the British Medical Journal, The Economist and the New Scientist Magazine. http://www.dietandcancerreport.org/

 

[shelsmaha]

Thank-you Carola for the links. Katerchen I too would like to see the article that you are talking about that has the WHO saying that people that abstain from animal protein have shorter life spans. Please post the article or the link as I am very interested to read it.

 

[Annie973]

I just wanted to throw in my two cents regarding the person that said vegans are malnourished (which is an extrememly ignorant statement).....I am 7 months pregnant with twins and follow a vegan diet. At every doctors appointment I am praised with how well I am carrying, my blood pressure, my weight gain, etc. Both of my babies are right on target as far as development and weight. There are much better sources of nutrition than animal products.....tofu, temph, legumes, veggies, fruits, etc.

 

[pixiesis]

I just wanted to throw in my two cents regarding the person that said vegans are malnourished (which is an extrememly ignorant statement).....I am 7 months pregnant with twins and follow a vegan diet. At every doctors appointment I am praised with how well I am carrying, my blood pressure, my weight gain, etc. Both of my babies are right on target as far as development and weight. There are much better sources of nutrition than animal products.....tofu, temph, legumes, veggies, fruits, etc.

Annie, it is an ignorant (and irrational and false) statement, but don't let it get to you. This person is hanging on to outdated and disproved ideas about nutrition. I'm sure you are a very responsible and healthy mommy-to-be and your twins are going to be healthy and beautiful!

Katerchen: I'm a vegan. When I first saw my doctor he was rather concerned about my diet and therefore did a full workup of blood tests on me. Guess what? I'm perfectly healthy. Not malnourished, but rather I had excellent numbers in every single category. Not a surprise to me, but a bit of a surprise to him. He said they were the best numbers he'd ever seen. Are you sure you aren't just looking for any old information to support your beliefs rather than going to trusted sources and seeing what they have to say? Good research means being open to finding information that proves you wrong. By the way, I'm glad we agree on the cruelty of factory farming.

Amy

 

[Afreet]

Show me one scientific article that proves that human beings do not need animal protein. I mean a real scientific article, no opinion, no made-up claims by pseudo-physicians, no blog. Show me the prove in a medical journal - Show me one scientific article that proves that human beings do not need animal protein. I mean a real scientific article, no opinion, no made-up claims by pseudo-physicians, no blog. Show me the prove in a medical journal - United States, Great Britain, France.

Ummm...what Carola said.

There was a study conducted a few years ago by USDA that indicated that a study group of vegans were somewhat deficient in calcium, iodine, and B-12. B-12 deficiency can lead to a shorter lifespan in humans, but it's easy enough to rectify by eating B-12-fortified foods and supplements. Calcium & iodine are easy to get more of, too. But yes, we have to pay attention to our intake of certain nutrients.

Incidentally, the meat-eaters in the group were deficient in 7 nutrients: calcium, iodine, vitamin C, vitamin E, fiber, folate, and magnesium.

Here's my reference for this: USDA. Food and Nutrient Intakes by Individuals in the United States, by Region, 1994-96.

Also, the WHO had some pretty positive things to say about vegan diets and their positive effects on body weight, blood cholesterol, and heart disease:

World Health Organization Technical Report Series 916. Diet, Nutrition and the Prevention of Chronic Diseases. 2003.

I don't actually peruse medical journals looking for justification for veganism, sorry. The China Study is a basically the only in-depth nutrition study that really addressed it, as far as I know. I pay attention to issues of nutrition and consult a clinical nutritionist (who has no problem with veganism), but that is as far as I go. I have to have a job, walk the dogs, and clean the house, after all.

*whew* Are vegans the only folks who are regularly asked to provide in-depth medical proof that their diet is meeting all their nutritional needs? Jeez.

Also, I still object to the Eggland's Best partnership. In case anybody was wondering.

 

[morningstar]

This whole thing gets even more complicated if you consider that the manufacturing of the synthetic materials that many people use in place of animal products is extremely harmful to the environment and many animals' and other creatures' habitats.

 

[morningstar]

I think you can be healthy on a vegan, vegetarian, omnivore and many other types of diets. You can also be extremely unhealthy on all of those diets. I did the unhealthy omnivore diet, the unhealthy vegetarian diet, and now I'm on a healthy vegetarian diet. I feel much better. I think I could be healthy on an omnivore diet as well if I really decided to do so, but I just don't seem to be able to eat anything with a face.

 

[cindi1]

I agree with you Morningstar - just about any diet can be unhealthy if you try hard enough.

I wanted to add too that in the state of Illinois, children in public schools are not required to participate in dissection. My daughter opted out of the sheep eye and worm without any problems this year. Several student's opted out actually and were given other ways to learn the material. I was glad to see how well the school handled it.

My friend's son, on the other hand, attends a Christian school and was not allowed to opt out. Go figure.

 

[kathryn]

ready to bid the very minute Kathryn gets those vegan edible undies up on eBay!

LOL!
A friend and I were just talking about finding something to sell that would be as popular as the "Three Wolves, One Moon" t-shirt, to make some money.

 

[kathryn]

I got this off of the blog veg i dea...I thought it was fitting to post here...kind of shows you all animals are beautiful and you can't judge a book by It's cover!!

I've always thought crows were interesting, ever since I saw one sitting on a light post in front of our house (in town). Unfortunately (for them), they have a bad rep. A Puerto Rican friend of mine is freaked out whenever she sees them flying around, because she sees crows flying overhead as a portent of death.

 

[kathryn]

Cutting out all animal protein is unhealthy and peoples that do so are malnuritished, shorter, shorter life expectancy etc (according to Who and other scientific magazines/websites.) At least some eggs and dairy are necessary...

I'm not sure what your "scientific" sources are, but there are many sources that contradict this, along with the healthy vegan-raised children I've seen.

Malnourished? Only if they are following an unhealthy, unbalanced vegan diet (just as easy to do as an unhealthy, unbalanced omnivorous diet).

Shorter? That may actually be true, because of the lack of stimulating hormones from animal products, but being a bit shorter than someone is not a sign of lack of health.

Shorter life expectancy? You'd definitely have to site some studies that show that to be true. Dr. Norman Walker lived to over 100. Donald Watson, who invented the term "vegan," died at 95.

http://www.examiner.com/x-4348-Phoenix-Vegan-Examiner~y2009m4d7-Longer-life-and-the-vegan-diet

 

[kathryn]

But the meat we eat is only the tip of the iceberg. How about all the animal testing? These animals suffer for a long time compared to a "meat supplier." I only buy "not tested on animal" beauty products. How can someone justify to kill animals just to remove wrinkles (Botox)? Why does every High School and College Student disect pigs, cats, sharks, frogs etc. There is disection software available that would make these "fun" activities obsolete. Why do animal shelters put perfectly healthy and nice animals down?

I agree.
Torturing animals in the name of vanity is barbaric, and there are many alternatives available.

One caveat on beauty products and animal testing : as with many things, manufacturers use deceptive practices to make themselves sound better than they are.

Often, the label "company ABC does not conduct animal testing" means that while company ABC did not conduct tests directly, they paid company XYZ to conduct the tests, or paid for the results.

"This product not tested on animals" often means the separate ingredients were tested, but after they were mixed together, there was no further testing.

The only labels that are sure-fire cruelty free are "No animal testing" or "ABC company does not conduct or endorse animal testing" or "vegan" or "product and ingredients not tested on animals" or "ABC company is opposed to animal testing" (Paul Mitchell products have something similar to that on it), usually with the bunny rabbit logo that indicates they have been certified cruelty free (though the bunny rabbit wouldn't appear on products that are not tested, but contain animal products).

 

[kathryn]

... even if I were the only vegan in the world, I would still not agree that it is OK to eat animals, even if the grocery store assures me that they were happy while they were alive. I think it's wrong to kill them and eat them when I can be perfectly healthy eating plants.

Yes, food prices would increase if even the most incredibly minute changes were made to make animals slightly less miserable during their short, tortured lives. I know that would make some people unhappy. But frankly, I find the practices of raising animals for food to be so repugnant that I think it's worth some inconvenience to address this issue.

ITA!
(though you wouldn't be the only vegan in the world, sweetie...I'd be right there with you.).

Using animals for food for survival is one thing. Continuing to use animals for food when we have the choice not to is something I have a hard time understanding at times. I know much of it has to do with tradition, and habit, and acquired tastes and preferences, but I still sometimes feel like I've been dropped on a planet of aliens whose ways and customs are hard to understand.

 

[kathryn]

Show me one scientific article that proves that human beings do not need animal protein. I mean a real scientific article, no opinion, no made-up claims by pseudo-physicians, no blog. Show me the prove in a medical journal - United States, Great Britain, France.

Where is YOUR scientific proof for the claims you made above?

 

[kathryn]

Katerchen: I'm a vegan. When I first saw my doctor he was rather concerned about my diet and therefore did a full workup of blood tests on me. Guess what? I'm perfectly healthy. Not malnourished, but rather I had excellent numbers in every single category. Not a surprise to me, but a bit of a surprise to him.

My new doctor (my previous doctor moved to another state), upon hearing I was a vegan, didn't even blink. Obviously, it was not something that caused her concern. And when my tests came back (I like to do a full blood panel every two years or so, as well as other preventive tests), they were all within the normal to excellent range. My HDL (good) cholesterol levels are higher than the level they mark as high!

 

[kathryn]

There was a study conducted a few years ago by USDA that indicated that a study group of vegans were somewhat deficient in calcium, iodine, and B-12. B-12 deficiency can lead to a shorter lifespan in humans, but it's easy enough to rectify by eating B-12-fortified foods and supplements.


*whew* Are vegans the only folks who are regularly asked to provide in-depth medical proof that their diet is meeting all their nutritional needs? Jeez.

I remember that study. B-12 deficiency caused elevated homocysteine levels, which were the more direct cause of the shorter life span (and as I mentioned above ...was that 5 or 12 pages ago, LOL!...even omnivores are starting to show B-12 deficiencies because of the lack of bacteria in our soil that the microorganisms that create B-12 depend on)


Afreet: I do often wonder how many omnivores are as well read in nutrition as most vegans?