Profits Before Patients - A PBS Interview w/Bill Moyers

kathryn said:
ITA
Though I can see from some posts in this thread how these lies are spread.

These scare tactics and bullying used to try to muddy the issue and frighten people into opposing health-care reform are despicable.

And did anyone see the guy who was wearing a gun strapped to his leg (outside of one of the venues where the President was speaking), holding a sign saying something about "time to water the tree of liberty" This comes from a Thomas Jefferson quote: “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.”

I don't know about you, but I find some yahoo exercising his 'constitutional right to bear arms' while holding a sign that alludes to killing those in power rather scary.
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I'm shocked Presidential security allowed that!
 
I just heard Ron Paul supporting his right to carry that gun and thought the guy was very "well behaved" and gave no real cause for alarm. Evidently neither he nor any of the broadcasters had any idea where that quote came from or what it was referring to. Maybe someone should have them read the full quotation.
 
Actually, I think the Secret Service handled it pretty well. By New Hampshire state law he was within his rights and by not elevating it (by taking him away when he was within his right under the law) was smart. I agree though that the Secret Service probably had him in cross hairs just in case.
 
"Kostric insisted his intentions were peaceful,..."

:rolleyes: Right. Cause when I think of peace, I think of guns.

Oh, and quotes about shedding blood.

Ugh.
 
Here's a piece from the Wall Street Journal, written by John Mackey, founder of Whole Foods. The disclaimer is that I know nothing of Mr. Mackey, his political leanings or whose payroll he might be on. I thought the piece interesting because it seemed somewhat random to have him writing on health care and it's also one of the few pieces I've read that addresses American's refusal to take care of themselves.

http://tiny.cc/ekHeG
 
sparrow13 said:
Here's a piece from the Wall Street Journal, written by John Mackey, founder of Whole Foods. The disclaimer is that I know nothing of Mr. Mackey, his political leanings or whose payroll he might be on. I thought the piece interesting because it seemed somewhat random to have him writing on health care and it's also one of the few pieces I've read that addresses American's refusal to take care of themselves.

http://tiny.cc/ekHeG
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Unfortunately, he does not address many issues involved in the helath care reform including two of the most important, getting the uninsured insured and preventing insurance companies from denying coverage for pre-existing conditions or worse cancelling coverage when someone gets sick. He seems to be advocating less regulation for insurance companies. Mr. Mackey's solutions don't even begin to address the major problems with rising costs and the rising number of uninsured.
 
BuffyR said:
Unfortunately, he does not address many issues involved in the helath care reform including two of the most important, getting the uninsured insured and preventing insurance companies from denying coverage for pre-existing conditions or worse cancelling coverage when someone gets sick. He seems to be advocating less regulation for insurance companies. Mr. Mackey's solutions don't even begin to address the major problems with rising costs and the rising number of uninsured.
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I don't think his piece is intended to be a comprehensive review of the issues at hand, nor did I represent it as such. Simply another perspective, and perhaps additional concepts and issues for us to discuss.
 
sparrow13 said:
I don't think his piece is intended to be a comprehensive review of the issues at hand, nor did I represent it as such. Simply another perspective, and perhaps additional concepts and issues for us to discuss.
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Sorry if I cam off snarky, it was directed to you. I appreciate looking at different points of view.

BTW, I came accross this article about the budget deficit which is interesting as it relates to the budget for health care and sources of the current budget deficit. It is from the site Thinkprogress which I agree leans to the left, but the source of the numbers are from the NY Times and I have no reason to believe are inaccurate.

http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2009/06/what-caused-the-budget-deficit.php
 
BuffyR said:
Sorry if I cam off snarky, it was directed to you. I appreciate looking at different points of view.

BTW, I came accross this article about the budget deficit which is interesting as it relates to the budget for health care and sources of the current budget deficit. It is from the site Thinkprogress which I agree leans to the left, but the source of the numbers are from the NY Times and I have no reason to believe are inaccurate.

http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2009/06/what-caused-the-budget-deficit.php
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Buffy, no worries. :) Thanks for the link.
 
sparrow13 said:
Here's a piece from the Wall Street Journal, written by John Mackey, founder of Whole Foods. The disclaimer is that I know nothing of Mr. Mackey, his political leanings or whose payroll he might be on. I thought the piece interesting because it seemed somewhat random to have him writing on health care and it's also one of the few pieces I've read that addresses American's refusal to take care of themselves.

http://tiny.cc/ekHeG
Click to expand...

It's pretty well-known that he is a Libertarian and even if one didn't know it becomes pretty clear from his writings. Whereas I agree that much of America's health problems are self-inflicted through eating patterns and lack of exercise, I think he quite oversimplyfies the problem and in fact whereas he is entitled to his opinion, it contains several untruths:

"Even in countries like Canada and the U.K., there is no intrinsic right to health care. Rather, citizens in these countries are told by government bureaucrats what health-care treatments they are eligible to receive and when they can receive them. All countries with socialized medicine ration health care by forcing their citizens to wait in lines to receive scarce treatments."

Are you flippin' kidding me? A bureaucrat tells you what you are eligible to receive and when to receive it? What the heck is he thinking is happening right now? Why is it different and not worse when a bureaucrat at a company whose only interest is their profit decides what treatments they can receive. Having lived in Europe and encountered "socialized" medicine, I can tell you that it was a lot less bureaucratic than it is here, people don't have to lay on the stretcher with a hole in their head and first call their health insurance to get permission for treatment. There are no more waiting periods than they are here. I don't know why it keeps coming up but it is an outright lie!!

He suggests a high-deductible health insurance plan which creates a lot of potential problems as I had to find out the hard way on my own high deductible insurance plan. This article summarizes it better than I can, I think the point this article makes, is that a high deductible insurance plan is a bet against yourself, you are betting you won't get sick and you won't have an accident. But if you do you are screwed! It's not surprising that as an employer it would make sense to Mr. Mackey. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/30/health/30patient.html?pagewanted=all

I don't want to go through Mr. Mackey's writing line by line but overall I think it just contains the same ole lame Libertarian and Republican talking points. What really gets me is that those guys (Republicans) had every chance in the world to change health care according to their liking first under Reagan, then Bush 1 and then Bush 2 and they have done diddly! Now that someone is actually trying to do something (and it may not be perfect) all they do is poo poo it and wanting to destroy it, and the way some of them want to do it is nothing short of appauling.

I don't think John Mackey offers a new and fresh perspective, I have heard the same talking points for years, just this time offered by the Whole Foods founder.

I think for any health care reform to be successful we need to stop to overmedicate people and educate people more about healthy lifestyles and give incentives to actually do so but that is totally different story.
 
"• Make costs transparent so that consumers understand what health-care treatments cost. How many people know the total cost of their last doctor's visit and how that total breaks down? What other goods or services do we buy without knowing how much they will cost us?

I do think he has a point here. After FIL's extensive procedures this summer, it is darn near impossible to understand the bill and see if he actually got charged properly. His roommate was angry because a doctor he normally did not see came in, read his chart, signed it, and a 200.00 charge appeared on his bill from his doctor. That just is not right. We should be able to know what something is going to cost up front, and so if they are going to charge 50.00 for a toothbrush, have the opportunity to bring our own. Over simplification, yes, but anyone who has dealt with extensive medical bills knows exactly what I am talking about.

He is way too light on insurance companies. They should not be able to pick and choose who to cover, and how much to cover when we sit here and pay high premiums to them. But it all snowballs. The hospitals charge too much, the insurance company reacts, will not cover it....so on and so forth.

I read an article this morning that said Canada is starting to lean away from the government health care because of too many problems with it. I cannot find the article right now, will look later. I think the idea was finding a happy medium between total government control and private that is responsive to patient concerns.
 
sparrow13 said:
Here's a piece from the Wall Street Journal, written by John Mackey, founder of Whole Foods. The disclaimer is that I know nothing of Mr. Mackey, his political leanings or whose payroll he might be on. I thought the piece interesting because it seemed somewhat random to have him writing on health care and it's also one of the few pieces I've read that addresses American's refusal to take care of themselves.

http://tiny.cc/ekHeG
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There is nothing random about it. Wall Street Journal is a Conservative paper, you can trust that this guy is not non-partisan. I also read he was a Libertarian. And while I agree that people don't take care of themselves enough, I am not going to sit around without health insurance waiting for Americans to stop eating junk. I'm really surprised by this article. From a retailer that solicits its shoppers to donate to the poor AND takes food stamps AND is known to be a shopping haven for Liberals?

And the tort reform that he suggests does not lower health care costs, it helps doctors - which is great. But, it does not lower costs. I posted a long comment about this a few pages back.
 
Last edited:
Here's a piece from BusinessWeek entitled "The Health Insurers Have Already Won." Disclaimer again, that I simply found it interesting and thought others might as well. I make no claims that the piece contains any exciting! new! toy surprise inside! information or addresses all the issues at hand.

http://tiny.cc/NBWNz
 
Lastchance09 said:
There is nothing random about it. Wall Street Journal is a Conservative paper owned by Rupert Murdoch who owns FOX, The New York Post and other news outlets. You can trust that this guy is not a Democrat. And while I agree that people don't take care of themselves enough, I am not going to sit around without health insurance waiting for Americans to stop eating junk. I'm really surprised by this article. From a retailer that appears to be concerned about the poor AND accepts food stamps?
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That the WSJ would put up a Conservative/Libertarian perspective is not what is random - I am well aware of the WJS's leanings. I was simply surprised to see an article by the founder of Whole Foods on this topic - and, like you, surprised by his perspective. I've been informed though this gentleman and his political affiliations are "well-known," so clearly I will need to devote more time to studying the political habits of grocery store CEO's.
 
Lastchance09 said:
As the bill finalizes, the CBO report will be very different. So I wouldn't rely on this pdf.
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They will take items from this, so don't discount it. Also, it will cost money, don't discount that either.

What Obama should do is go back and start looking at the plans and insist on removing the really controversial stuff, focus on getting people who are not insured, insured, focus on the insurance companies not dropping people at will, focus on the waste in the medical system. The bill should be made public before it gets voted on, so everyone can understand it. Make it less expensive, focus it on the dire areas of need, and then make the push. Making the push before he even knows what is in it is not very smart, IMO. Get the parts that will really help passed, drop the crazy stuff.
 
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