Profits Before Patients - A PBS Interview w/Bill Moyers
- Thread starter Lastchance09
- Start date
LauraMax
Cathlete
I third them. And it's not just the far right either, it's the far left too. That's why I want my own copy of the bill. I don't even trust what my own party is telling me right now.
I'll start downloading it when I leave tonight. Not sure where to go from there.
LaughingWater
Cathlete
Can I also add that this is a great thread full of interesting thoughts from intelligent ladies?
I'm glad we're attempting to go over this monster bill bit by bit.
sparrow13
Cathlete
I third them. And it's not just the far right either, it's the far left too. That's why I want my own copy of the bill. I don't even trust what my own party is telling me right now.
I'll start downloading it when I leave tonight. Not sure where to go from there.
That's where I am at this point. Also I think my biggest concern is not what this bill is but what it might become in the future, especially with the vague language that is open to all kinds of interpretation. IMO what government does best is to create more government and line its own pockets. I have no doubt that down the road we will see any manner of government power grabs in relation to this initial legislation, regardless of who is in the White House.
I also think the costs are going to be astronomical down the road. The middle class is going to get hammered once again.
dorothyrd
Cathlete
Besides having the bill and KNOWING what is actually in it, not spun from either side, I do want to know this....
What do people in opposition to this, some for what I think is good reason, want to see happen with health care? What will fix the problems that we have currently have of people not getting covered because of illness, not having coverage because it is too expensive for smaller business, having insurance deny them coverage citing that the cost is over and above what is normally charged(like we have a choice what we are charged).
For people who want THIS bill(or bills), my biggest concern, how are we going to pay for this. How are they going to prevent far more numbers than anticipated having to go on it(this happened in Hawaii for child health care, parents decided that it was cheaper to go on the government plan, it was only designed for those unable to get other insurances and then it ran out of funds because too many folks jumped on). How are we going to prevent choice being taken away?
I don't want a huge expensive health bill rammed through. I think that the pork needs out, the bill needs to be read by all lawmakers, and debated.
Fox website(I know most of you don't like Fox, but often there is nothing on the other cites except praise, praise,praise) has listed supporters and opposition. I find it interesting in I am more favorable to the supporters than the opposition. Considering I am conservative, what do they know?
What do people in opposition to this, some for what I think is good reason, want to see happen with health care? What will fix the problems that we have currently have of people not getting covered because of illness, not having coverage because it is too expensive for smaller business, having insurance deny them coverage citing that the cost is over and above what is normally charged(like we have a choice what we are charged).
For people who want THIS bill(or bills), my biggest concern, how are we going to pay for this. How are they going to prevent far more numbers than anticipated having to go on it(this happened in Hawaii for child health care, parents decided that it was cheaper to go on the government plan, it was only designed for those unable to get other insurances and then it ran out of funds because too many folks jumped on). How are we going to prevent choice being taken away?
I don't want a huge expensive health bill rammed through. I think that the pork needs out, the bill needs to be read by all lawmakers, and debated.
Fox website(I know most of you don't like Fox, but often there is nothing on the other cites except praise, praise,praise) has listed supporters and opposition. I find it interesting in I am more favorable to the supporters than the opposition. Considering I am conservative, what do they know?
I can't answer your first question because I haven't heard any solutions being offered by Republicans. It is worth noting that during the 20 years Republicans had control of the WH (Regean, Bush, Bush), there hasn't been any action on reforming health care. GWB added a Medicare prescription drug benefit for the elderly but it was not paid for and simply added to the deficit.
As for how this bill will be paid for, that has been completely worked out because there is no final bill yet. The general consensus seems to be it will be paid for with a combination of savings from programs that currently exist and some kind of surtax on earners who have a adjusted income of over $250,000 (or higher; that part has not been decided on absolutely). President Obama has stated that he won't sign a bill that is not budget neutral, in other words, it must be paid for.
Keep in mind that a big part of this bill is regulating insurance companies and putting restrictions on how they deny coverage to people. That's not the expensive part, but rather the expensive part is getting all or at least most Americans covered. Clearly, not all people can afford health insurance even if the cost is lowered. It is important to get all people covered because as it stands now when the uninsured go to the ER they get treatment but if they can't pay, the cost gets passed onto the insured (translation, us). This is unsustainable. Insurance premiums are rising rapidly and it won't be long before health insurance will be unaffordable for most Americans. So even those of us who have insurance (which I do), if the status quo is maintained, employers will soon stop offering health insurance because it will be too costly.
LaughingWater
Cathlete
Melissa, you asked about socialized medicine and some specifics. I've been trying to find an unbiased review of Europe's different government plans. Haven't found anything worth reading yet, which is a bummer.
Dorothy, regarding how this will all be paid for, I'm hoping there's a ton of taxpayer money that is tied up in current government programs (like Medicare/Medicaid) that can be redirected. Obviously that won't cover it all, but this was my first thought.
I'm also hoping the government plan will force private insurers to make their plans cheaper, thus spreading the demand out.
A crystal ball would really help right now.
Just a quick note on doctor's salaries, I haven't read the entire bill, so I have no clue if a set salary is being proposed for physicians. Not really sure how that would work if we have a hybrid of private and government plans, but anywho...
I'd be okay with that, and I say that as a doc's wife. Granted, medical school was extremely expensive, and we worked our butts off to pay the loans. And yes, docs deserve to be compensated for their training, time, and dedication. But most of them are not in it for major profits. Many medical families are happy if we can provide for our families and have something to set aside for college, savings, and retirement. No different than anyone else.
Now, if a pathetic salary is set, and the hours required are unreasonable, that's a different story. But my point is...I know a physician who makes $800K a year, only seeing patients one day a week and filling the rest of his days with hospital administration crap. I don't care how smart he is, he doesn't need that much.
By the same token, I know hardworking docs who put in tons of time with patients, have no personal life, and make $120K. One friend who is a specialist was offered $80K a year. (?1) $800K for pushing paper around vs. $80 - $120K for killing yourself actually taking care of patients. Figure that out.
Dorothy, regarding how this will all be paid for, I'm hoping there's a ton of taxpayer money that is tied up in current government programs (like Medicare/Medicaid) that can be redirected. Obviously that won't cover it all, but this was my first thought.
I'm also hoping the government plan will force private insurers to make their plans cheaper, thus spreading the demand out.
A crystal ball would really help right now.
Just a quick note on doctor's salaries, I haven't read the entire bill, so I have no clue if a set salary is being proposed for physicians. Not really sure how that would work if we have a hybrid of private and government plans, but anywho...
I'd be okay with that, and I say that as a doc's wife. Granted, medical school was extremely expensive, and we worked our butts off to pay the loans. And yes, docs deserve to be compensated for their training, time, and dedication. But most of them are not in it for major profits. Many medical families are happy if we can provide for our families and have something to set aside for college, savings, and retirement. No different than anyone else.
Now, if a pathetic salary is set, and the hours required are unreasonable, that's a different story. But my point is...I know a physician who makes $800K a year, only seeing patients one day a week and filling the rest of his days with hospital administration crap. I don't care how smart he is, he doesn't need that much.
By the same token, I know hardworking docs who put in tons of time with patients, have no personal life, and make $120K. One friend who is a specialist was offered $80K a year. (?1) $800K for pushing paper around vs. $80 - $120K for killing yourself actually taking care of patients. Figure that out.
dorothyrd
Cathlete
unfortunately I have no trust that the government knows how to save and redirect funds. I have not seen that in my lifetime.
However, I do think there needs to be something done about insurance companies. I have had some really bad experiences with denial of claims when my DD was small and sick with an illness the doctors could not pinpoint. It is very frustrating to be told that the charges are not within reasonable and customary, like I have any control over that. It is very frustrating to have to go on COBRA with this same crappy insurance and pay more than my house mortgage to be told that they would not pay because of reasonable and customary...and then not be able to get anything else because no one would touch her because of this illness, which she grew out of.
So yes, something needs to be done with this.
We have such great insurance right now, and I am thankful for it because of those times 15 years ago with the crappy insurance. It insures a conglomerate of small companies nationally so the cost is kept low and the coverage is good. And the bad insurance was a very well known company who happens to oppose this legislation.
However, I do think there needs to be something done about insurance companies. I have had some really bad experiences with denial of claims when my DD was small and sick with an illness the doctors could not pinpoint. It is very frustrating to be told that the charges are not within reasonable and customary, like I have any control over that. It is very frustrating to have to go on COBRA with this same crappy insurance and pay more than my house mortgage to be told that they would not pay because of reasonable and customary...and then not be able to get anything else because no one would touch her because of this illness, which she grew out of.
So yes, something needs to be done with this.
We have such great insurance right now, and I am thankful for it because of those times 15 years ago with the crappy insurance. It insures a conglomerate of small companies nationally so the cost is kept low and the coverage is good. And the bad insurance was a very well known company who happens to oppose this legislation.
Lastchance09
Cathlete
Let's Be Clear...About Health Care
I am the OP of this thread and I am glad to see that there is some intelligent debate and genuine concerns about the issue but there are also things in this thread that are untrue. I want to address some things and clear up some misconceptions.
The most important thing you need to know is that: The final bill has not been put together. There are 5 committees putting forth a health care bill and right now we have four (4). We are waiting for the last one to emerge from the senate. I really need to stress this fact folks, because no one should be sending you a bill to read - because ONE does not exist. What you have seen are common sections taken from all of these bills. When Congress returns in September, the final bill will eventually emerge - and it will be a while before that happens.
I saw a comment where someone provided a link to the "bill". Again this bill does not exist and it comes via an e-mail being sent to a lot of people. It is completely false and the first sign of that is that it mentions the words ACORN and illegal immigrants. Favorite bogeymen used by the Right. And aren't they clever? They know for a fact that most people won't fact check this information - who would have the time? Luckily the very wonkish members at www.talkingpointsmemo.com provided this thorough debunking of that "bill".
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/cville_dem/2009/08/this-is-a-republican-email-in.php
I've also seen comments that some don't know who to believe. You don't trust the Left nor the Right. That's fine, but I can tell you with 1000% percent confidence that THE best debate about health care reform is taking place amongst the Left. The Right, the GOP, the Republicans, the Conservatives, the Far Right -whatever you want to call these guys-have absolutely ZERO interest in health care reform. None, zip, nada, zero. Their only task is to kill it because it will destroy Obama and the Democrats chances for 2010 and let's not forget those campaign donations from the private insurance companies. They completely deny that there is a health care crisis. I watch, read and breathe politics so what I am telling you is not something I heard from someone else or got through an e-mail. I read the quotes, I watch the videos/interviews and I read op-eds that come from the opposition. It is appalling to find that a party who cries about fiscal responsibility is willing to turn a blind eye to this crisis.
Again, for those who want better, factual information, the best debate is taking place amongst the Left. Yes, they are all for health care reform, but they have different points of view about how to get there. When one side is providing facts, numbers, projections and historical references and the opposition is saying reform will kill your granny - that's not a debate.
Watch and listen to the president when he does his town halls. Watch them online because the pundits on tv love to hear themselves talk and will cut his appearance off. Hey, if you are going to listen to other politicians then you should give the top dog a chance. And no, the audience members are not plants and questions aren't chosen in advance.
Here are sites that I visit. Trust me, the Left does not give Obama a free ride. A few of the sites I list claim to be non-partisan and from the info I've seen, I believe them until I learn otherwise.
http:
//www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck/
http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=the_ten_dumbest_arguments_against_health_care_reform
www.tnr.com
www.politifact.com
www.factcheck.org
www.talkingpointsmemo.com
www.huffingtonpost.com
The Huffingtonpost is a liberal/progressive website but they do have articles pulled from other news organizations -both Left and Right.
Look, I know this is confusing and so many people have so many opinions that it makes your head spin. The few facts listed above and the other comments I've posted on this thread are the things I know for sure. If I am not sure about something, I will say nothing or say "I am not sure".
And if you are talking to friends, family, co-workers, etc. who are against health care reform and you hear these words: ACORN, illegal immigrants, socialism, fascism, Nazi, kill granny, "I want my America back", revolution, internment camps, "we have the best health care in the world" - RUN the other way.
I am the OP of this thread and I am glad to see that there is some intelligent debate and genuine concerns about the issue but there are also things in this thread that are untrue. I want to address some things and clear up some misconceptions.
The most important thing you need to know is that: The final bill has not been put together. There are 5 committees putting forth a health care bill and right now we have four (4). We are waiting for the last one to emerge from the senate. I really need to stress this fact folks, because no one should be sending you a bill to read - because ONE does not exist. What you have seen are common sections taken from all of these bills. When Congress returns in September, the final bill will eventually emerge - and it will be a while before that happens.
I saw a comment where someone provided a link to the "bill". Again this bill does not exist and it comes via an e-mail being sent to a lot of people. It is completely false and the first sign of that is that it mentions the words ACORN and illegal immigrants. Favorite bogeymen used by the Right. And aren't they clever? They know for a fact that most people won't fact check this information - who would have the time? Luckily the very wonkish members at www.talkingpointsmemo.com provided this thorough debunking of that "bill".
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/cville_dem/2009/08/this-is-a-republican-email-in.php
I've also seen comments that some don't know who to believe. You don't trust the Left nor the Right. That's fine, but I can tell you with 1000% percent confidence that THE best debate about health care reform is taking place amongst the Left. The Right, the GOP, the Republicans, the Conservatives, the Far Right -whatever you want to call these guys-have absolutely ZERO interest in health care reform. None, zip, nada, zero. Their only task is to kill it because it will destroy Obama and the Democrats chances for 2010 and let's not forget those campaign donations from the private insurance companies. They completely deny that there is a health care crisis. I watch, read and breathe politics so what I am telling you is not something I heard from someone else or got through an e-mail. I read the quotes, I watch the videos/interviews and I read op-eds that come from the opposition. It is appalling to find that a party who cries about fiscal responsibility is willing to turn a blind eye to this crisis.
Again, for those who want better, factual information, the best debate is taking place amongst the Left. Yes, they are all for health care reform, but they have different points of view about how to get there. When one side is providing facts, numbers, projections and historical references and the opposition is saying reform will kill your granny - that's not a debate.
Watch and listen to the president when he does his town halls. Watch them online because the pundits on tv love to hear themselves talk and will cut his appearance off. Hey, if you are going to listen to other politicians then you should give the top dog a chance. And no, the audience members are not plants and questions aren't chosen in advance.
Here are sites that I visit. Trust me, the Left does not give Obama a free ride. A few of the sites I list claim to be non-partisan and from the info I've seen, I believe them until I learn otherwise.
http:
//www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck/
http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=the_ten_dumbest_arguments_against_health_care_reform
www.tnr.com
www.politifact.com
www.factcheck.org
www.talkingpointsmemo.com
www.huffingtonpost.com
The Huffingtonpost is a liberal/progressive website but they do have articles pulled from other news organizations -both Left and Right.
Look, I know this is confusing and so many people have so many opinions that it makes your head spin. The few facts listed above and the other comments I've posted on this thread are the things I know for sure. If I am not sure about something, I will say nothing or say "I am not sure".
And if you are talking to friends, family, co-workers, etc. who are against health care reform and you hear these words: ACORN, illegal immigrants, socialism, fascism, Nazi, kill granny, "I want my America back", revolution, internment camps, "we have the best health care in the world" - RUN the other way.
Lastchance09
Cathlete
Last I heard defense spending was 2/3 of the national budget. Probably the beginning of the end of the Iraq war will pay for the program all on its own.
AND buy every American household a Prius.
it's more like 48%-52%
Lastchance09
Cathlete
The opposition does not want health care reform. The oppositions main point is that we can't afford it - that's not a good enough excuse because the current system we have now is unsustainable. If costs are not controlled now, they will get so high that small businesses will be forced to drop them and you won't have health care anyway. The longer we wait, the more it costs. If their argument is that we don't have money, why didn't they do it when we had a surplus after Clinton left the White House. Why didn't they do it when it was first introduced by President Harry Truman? Has the United States been broke for over 8 decades? I don't think so.
The committees are working with the Congressional Budget Office to see how much their bills will cost and how much it would save. It will be expensive and it will be expensive 5, 10, 15 years from now. The only difference is that you will pay more later. And when you hear that the bill is being rammed through, that is political talk for "we need more time to kill the bill". Congress has been debating this for decades.
And please, please, please, please do not rely on FOX News for your information on health care or any other issue. If you claim that other sites have nothing but praise, praise, praise then FOX has nothing but bashing, bashing, bashing. Just because you go against the grain doesn't mean that you are objective. FOX News is not objective in anyway. Most people here don't like them for very good reason. And those so-called pro-Obama sites do not always praise Obama. I find sites on the Left to have the most scathing critiques of Obama - and that's his base.
Lastchance09
Cathlete
We've been getting jack hammered into the ground for the past 8 years and if we don't put these private insurers in their place, there will be no middle class to speak of.
LauraMax
Cathlete
I am the OP of this thread and I am glad to see that there is some intelligent debate and genuine concerns about the issue but there are also things in this thread that are untrue. I want to address some things and clear up some misconceptions.
The most important thing you need to know is that: The final bill has not been put together. There are 5 committees putting forth a health care bill and right now we have four (4). We are waiting for the last one to emerge from the senate. I really need to stress this fact folks, because no one should be sending you a bill to read - because ONE does not exist. What you have seen are common sections taken from all of these bills. When Congress returns in September, the final bill will eventually emerge - and it will be a while before that happens.
I saw a comment where someone provided a link to the "bill". Again this bill does not exist and it comes via an e-mail being sent to a lot of people. It is completely false and the first sign of that is that it mentions the words ACORN and illegal immigrants. Favorite bogeymen used by the Right. And aren't they clever? They know for a fact that most people won't fact check this information - who would have the time? Luckily the very wonkish members at www.talkingpointsmemo.com provided this thorough debunking of that "bill".
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/cville_dem/2009/08/this-is-a-republican-email-in.php
I've also seen comments that some don't know who to believe. You don't trust the Left nor the Right. That's fine, but I can tell you with 1000% percent confidence that THE best debate about health care reform is taking place amongst the Left. The Right, the GOP, the Republicans, the Conservatives, the Far Right -whatever you want to call these guys-have absolutely ZERO interest in health care reform. None, zip, nada, zero. Their only task is to kill it because it will destroy Obama and the Democrats chances for 2010 and let's not forget those campaign donations from the private insurance companies. They completely deny that there is a health care crisis. I watch, read and breathe politics so what I am telling you is not something I heard from someone else or got through an e-mail. I read the quotes, I watch the videos/interviews and I read op-eds that come from the opposition. It is appalling to find that a party who cries about fiscal responsibility is willing to turn a blind eye to this crisis.
Again, for those who want better, factual information, the best debate is taking place amongst the Left. Yes, they are all for health care reform, but they have different points of view about how to get there. When one side is providing facts, numbers, projections and historical references and the opposition is saying reform will kill your granny - that's not a debate.
Watch and listen to the president when he does his town halls. Watch them online because the pundits on tv love to hear themselves talk and will cut his appearance off. Hey, if you are going to listen to other politicians then you should give the top dog a chance. And no, the audience members are not plants and questions aren't chosen in advance.
Here are sites that I visit. Trust me, the Left does not give Obama a free ride. A few of the sites I list claim to be non-partisan and from the info I've seen, I believe them until I learn otherwise.
http:
//www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck/
http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=the_ten_dumbest_arguments_against_health_care_reform
www.tnr.com
www.politifact.com
www.factcheck.org
www.talkingpointsmemo.com
www.huffingtonpost.com
The Huffingtonpost is a liberal/progressive website but they do have articles pulled from other news organizations -both Left and Right.
Look, I know this is confusing and so many people have so many opinions that it makes your head spin. The few facts listed above and the other comments I've posted on this thread are the things I know for sure. If I am not sure about something, I will say nothing or say "I am not sure".
And if you are talking to friends, family, co-workers, etc. who are against health care reform and you hear these words: ACORN, illegal immigrants, socialism, fascism, Nazi, kill granny, "I want my America back", revolution, internment camps, "we have the best health care in the world" - RUN the other way.
LastChance, there is JUST ONE BILL. I have no idea where you're getting your information, but I got mine from my congressman--rather, from his legislative aid, with whom I spent about 20 minutes on the phone this morning. Jeez, you didn't even know it was called a bill until this thread. There are probably a slew of amendments to the single bill flying around out there, and surely the final legislation will just vaguely resemble the original, but that's business as usual in DC.
Listen, I think you & I are in general agreement, but your insistence that the only legitimate debate that's taking place is from the left just, well, deligitimizes you. Putting a bunch of links up from liberal websites does not help. Anyone who's going to read them has already read them. Anyone who doesn't want to support this legislation won't bother.
I've heard some very good points & valid questions from this forum's conservatives. And as far as what's out there, there have been some Republican propositions that are viable & may well be--in fact likely will be--incorporated into this bill. I have no idea what your agenda is--you clearly created an account specifically to push this bill--but I'd hate for those voices to be discouraged b/c you're 1000% certain that your viewpoint is the single correct one. To claim the only factual information is coming from the left is simply illogical.
Holy crap, I can't believe I'm defending conservatives!
dorothyrd
Cathlete
Thank you Laura. I really was ready to drop this whole thing because I was getting left, left, left shoved down my throat, when I want to hear unbiased views. That just makes me want to drop this whole thing with this board, not discuss it with intelligence.
I watch all kinds of channels, not just Fox, and just found the article on Fox, who is supporting and who is opposed interesting because I agree with the people who support it, than oppose in that particular article.
I watch all kinds of channels, not just Fox, and just found the article on Fox, who is supporting and who is opposed interesting because I agree with the people who support it, than oppose in that particular article.
LaughingWater
Cathlete
Yes. Thank you from me too. I consider myself an Independent, and I get tired of the extreme views from both sides. Nice to see some people are willing to approach this issue without political bias.
dorothyrd
Cathlete
This article answers some questions:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/06/18/ep.health.reform.basics/index.html
A big concern we have right now is a 21 year old...what happens when he is too old for our insurance and does not have employment that offers it. My college graduate niece is in this situation and has no insurance. So not just the poor and sick.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/06/18/ep.health.reform.basics/index.html
A big concern we have right now is a 21 year old...what happens when he is too old for our insurance and does not have employment that offers it. My college graduate niece is in this situation and has no insurance. So not just the poor and sick.
sparrow13
Cathlete
Holy crap, I can't believe I'm defending conservatives!
Laura, I think that's one of the signs of the Apocalypse!! I am now heading to my window to see if there are four horsemen coming over the hill.....
Healthcare reform is clearly a very complicated and personal issue to all Americans. I am impressed with the number of people on this board who are interested in learning more about the bills that have gone through the different committees in Congress.
There are clearly alot of people who have concerns about this issue, as we all should. I don't, however, think it is helpful to spread disinformation about the bills i.e., death panels, Acorn boogeymen, free healthcare for illegal immigrants. There is room for debate but it is important to keep the debate on an intellectually honest level.
There are clearly alot of people who have concerns about this issue, as we all should. I don't, however, think it is helpful to spread disinformation about the bills i.e., death panels, Acorn boogeymen, free healthcare for illegal immigrants. There is room for debate but it is important to keep the debate on an intellectually honest level.
kathryn
Cathlete
ITA
Though I can see from some posts in this thread how these lies are spread.
These scare tactics and bullying used to try to muddy the issue and frighten people into opposing health-care reform are despicable.
And did anyone see the guy who was wearing a gun strapped to his leg (outside of one of the venues where the President was speaking), holding a sign saying something about "time to water the tree of liberty" This comes from a Thomas Jefferson quote: “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.”
I don't know about you, but I find some yahoo exercising his 'constitutional right to bear arms' while holding a sign that alludes to killing those in power rather scary.