Just to stir up a hornet's nest, what does everyone think about this?

[kirsten777]

I totally agree with this law as well. Only an individual can decide what is right or wrong for them. I have no idea what I would do in the situation, but as I live in Washington State (and of course, voted in favor of the law), I am certainly relieved that I have the choice.

Kirsten

 

[baylian]

And that was the right choice for THEM. Are you saying that this same choice should be forced on someone else?

I get irked when I hear that if you choose to take your own life it is dying with dignity. As if dying when you choose to let the Lord above make the decision has no dignity.

I think this whole idea is a very very slippery slope . . .what is next? Your next of kin choose for you to die because THEY don't want to see you suffer.

People take their lives everyday. If you want to do it - go for it. My faith tells me that there is a higher being to answer to and that is also what we have taught our son.

Thou shalt not kill . . and that includes ones self. You can ask for forgiveness but not when your already gone . . .

That is all . . . it is obvious that this post will spiral into religious debate.

 

[morningstar]

Well, this was fun, wasn't it?

Okay, my opinion on this subject remains the same as it was when I did a paper on this for 12th grade law class.

I'm a believer in self-determination when it comes to the right to decide to end my own life, whether I am sick or not.

With regard to assisted suicide, I am okay with it under certain circumstances, for instance, if it is very clear that the ill person made the decision to end their life. I am a little less okay about the situation when it is not clear that that would be the patient's choice, and someone else has to make that decision. You would hope that the person that has to make the decision would truly understand the patient and have their best interests at heart, but that may not be the case. There may also be situations where a person may be tired of taking care of the person, or is worn out, or is over-estimating the pain the patient is in.

I think this is one of those cases where there is no right decision, only lots of opinions. In any case, whether you are the patient or the one that has to make the decision whether to end the patient's life, this is an agonizing situation for all concerned and I feel for all that have to go through this. My grandmother died of a stroke at the age of 100 at the beginning of the year, and she was in distress for a week. If we had this law in Canada, I'm not sure what my decision would have been, given that I didn't know how long she would go one in pain, but also knowing that she treasured life, even living in a nursing home that she hated for the last few years of that life.

 

[nancy324]

I get irked when I hear that if you choose to take your own life it is dying with dignity. As if dying when you choose to let the Lord above make the decision has no dignity.

I think this whole idea is a very very slippery slope . . .what is next? Your next of kin choose for you to die because THEY don't want to see you suffer.

People take their lives everyday. If you want to do it - go for it. My faith tells me that there is a higher being to answer to and that is also what we have taught our son.

Thou shalt not kill . . and that includes ones self. You can ask for forgiveness but not when your already gone . . .

That is all . . . it is obvious that this post will spiral into religious debate.

Why should it be a religious debate when it involves the rights of competent adults to make their own decisions and follow their own religious beliefs? Where's the religion factor in that? I just don't get it. The Supreme Court of the United States has considered this issue at length, and has never so much as mentioned religious beliefs as a factor either for or against the law of any State. How could it? If it did, whose religious beliefs would it apply? The law is in no position to apply religious beliefs. All it can do is respect them.

 

[rjroubi]

Really think about it when you think you have the right to make the decision for other peoples lives:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7301566.stm

 

[Jaffas]

I get irked when I hear that if you choose to take your own life it is dying with dignity. As if dying when you choose to let the Lord above make the decision has no dignity.

I think this whole idea is a very very slippery slope . . .what is next? Your next of kin choose for you to die because THEY don't want to see you suffer.

People take their lives everyday. If you want to do it - go for it. My faith tells me that there is a higher being to answer to and that is also what we have taught our son.

Thou shalt not kill . . and that includes ones self. You can ask for forgiveness but not when your already gone . . .

That is all . . . it is obvious that this post will spiral into religious debate.

Actually I didn't express my opinion on this matter. I simply asked you a yes or no question. I get from your answer that you believe other people can do what they want but you judge them negatively for making a choice that is different from you own. I actually have my father who is suffering from dementia, is bed ridden, incontinent, blind and deaf. He cannot feed himself, dress himself or bathe himself. He has been in this state for over two years. He will continue to live in this state until he dies of natural causes and would continue to do so no matter what the law says. That said I gather from your statement that only God can decide when to end a life that you are also against the death penalty. Are you?

 

[baylian]

Actually I didn't express my opinion on this matter. I simply asked you a yes or no question. I get from your answer that you believe other people can do what they want but you judge them negatively for making a choice that is different from you own. I actually have my father who is suffering from dementia, is bed ridden, incontinent, blind and deaf. He cannot feed himself, dress himself or bathe himself. He has been in this state for over two years. He will continue to live in this state until he dies of natural causes and would continue to do so no matter what the law says. That said I gather from your statement that only God can decide when to end a life that you are also against the death penalty. Are you?

No - like I said before - if you want to take your own life then so be it. For many years people have done it without any help of a law or a doctor. Why there needs to be a law for it is beyond me.

I have seen what your father is going through. My father was in a rehab center after his surgery. One wing was people that you describe like your father. I questioned my faith when walking down there "why does God let this go on so long". And I understand the thinking of "Lord, just take him already". It totally sucks. But the idea of suicide never entered the picture just because that is how I was brought up and how I feel.

Have struggled with the death penalty for years. One minute for it (because of some news story I suppose) and the next minute totally against it for the sake of letting God figure it out. Yet - in war it's us and the enemy and my feeling is "let it be them".

I can see the attacks coming so I will bow out. This post/thread will really heat up tomorrow after the Holiday.

Hope everyone had a peaceful, reflective Memorial Day.

 

[Fembot40]

Totally agree! Why should we not have a say over what happens to us while were still able. We watched our grandmother last year be denied any liquids to end her life, but this was seen as legal and morally right??? It took her over a week to pass, and I'm sure it was very painful, even though she was too weak to speak. I'm sure if she was lucid, she would have decided upon a quick and painful end. It still bothers me to think about what she went through. Just as we all have the right to choose to be buried or cremated, we should also have the right to choose our demise in the face of a terminal illness. I've always thought Dr. Kavorkian (sp?) was a hero.

 

[Vee]

Baylian, I agree with what I understand to be the crux of your perspective.

Life is a gift. Suicide (or murder, or war, or terrorism, or capital punishment for that matter) is like throwing away that gift - something so monumental that I cant find words to describe how it seems to me.

Being terminally ill and deeply suffering is where I make an exception. If I get to chose for myself, I would want quick, assisted suicide. I agree with you that whether this choice represents "dying with dignity" is debatable. I agree it may not be spiritually strong. This is one scenario where I would hope for understanding and forgiveness from the divine. I also empathize with those who choose assisted suicide in the face of hopeless and prolonged suffering. And for those like your parents, strong enough to stand by faith, they have my deepest admiration.

Nancy, I see your point of view too. Religion is personal. A lot depends on how each person interprets the teachings of a religion, and who is to judge which interpretation is right and which is wrong? In some religions there is not even an explicit veto against suicide in the scriptures. In some religions, death is not the end, but a stage in the continuum of a soul's journey to divinity and eternal existance. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as a living will in my country.

 

[cats_meow_0911]

I'll be the first to disagree! Just my opinion here and not meant at all to spark a "religious" debate, as we are all entitled to our opinions. I disagree because I believe that it is up to God when someone's life ends. I also have faith and believe in miracles, including the miracle of a person who is deemed "terminal" by a doctor, to be fully healed by the power of God, if this is His will (example to follow). Prematurely taking your own life eliminates this possibility. Don't get me wrong, I think suffering is horrible and can understand why no one would want to go through it or stand by and watch, me included. But I could never make that decision because my life and death are wholly in God's hands, and there is meaning to all things we go through in life, even suffering.

My problem with this argument is that you are not really letting "God" have control if medical treatment is sought. I mean no disrespect, but it is contradictory on one hand to take advantage of medicine and science to prolong life, but then to not have control over the end of life when that time comes.

I should add, you have the right to chose your own end of life option and may believe in the correct path for yourself, but that does not mean the choice is not right for others. Hands down, if I were terminally ill and suffering, I would want the right to choose a peaceful end, and not have the government (or any one else) interfere with that personal decision.

I am a veterinary technician, and I am relieved that animals have the option of being euthanized when their suffering is too great to bear. Hopefully the entire field of human medicine will catch up some day.

 

[morningstar]

Life is a gift. Suicide (or murder, or war, or terrorism, or capital punishment for that matter) is like throwing away that gift - something so monumental that I cant find words to describe how it seems to me.

Being terminally ill and deeply suffering is where I make an exception.

I guess, Vee, I would ask why you would make an exception for deep physical suffering and not deep emotional suffering, which is arguably even more painful under some circumstances.

 

[Vee]

I guess, Vee, I would ask why you would make an exception for deep physical suffering and not deep emotional suffering, which is arguably even more painful under some circumstances.

Great question. So difficult to answer. But let me try.

Deep suffering where respite is quite hopeless is how I would characterize terminal illness. If the emotional issue were on par on hopelessness I wouldnt distinguish. But how many deeply painful emotional circumstances are "terminal"?

I dont think is a good answer. I have to concede that you may have a point about self-determination, and that I perhaps should open my mind to reconsidering why I am OK with one but not the other. Every instinct I have rebels against the idea, though.

 

[Fit_mommy]

My problem with this argument is that you are not really letting "God" have control if medical treatment is sought. I mean no disrespect, but it is contradictory on one hand to take advantage of medicine and science to prolong life, but then to not have control over the end of life when that time comes.

I should add, you have the right to chose your own end of life option and may believe in the correct path for yourself, but that does not mean the choice is not right for others. Hands down, if I were terminally ill and suffering, I would want the right to choose a peaceful end, and not have the government (or any one else) interfere with that personal decision.

I am a veterinary technician, and I am relieved that animals have the option of being euthanized when their suffering is too great to bear. Hopefully the entire field of human medicine will catch up some day.

ITA with you, Erin.

This should be an option and a personal choice. When you think about it, there are already options for allowing a patient who is at the tail end of a deadly illness to die a bit sooner. They allow for some to be taken off respirators that are keeping them alive, they allow for nutrition/hydration to be stopped and they allow for meds to be stopped. Why should this be legal and not assisted suicide? What I just described is basically suicide but it is still likely that the patient will suffer for x amount of minutes/hours/days or even weeks before death. Allowing the patient to pass quickly and comfortably given the same set of circumstances doesn't seem like something that should be frowned upon. Think of the patient. Does this person want to suffer just to be able to "live" one more week? Is there any quality of life there? Keeping someone alive who is has no hope and is no longer really living is cruel and selfish. They should be allowed to pass on quickly and peacefully.

Ofcourse this would not be the right choice for everyone and that's OKAY. This country is all about having choices in life. Why not be allowed to have them in death too?

 

[morningstar]

Great question. So difficult to answer. But let me try.

Deep suffering where respite is quite hopeless is how I would characterize terminal illness. If the emotional issue were on par on hopelessness I wouldnt distinguish. But how many deeply painful emotional circumstances are "terminal"?

I dont think is a good answer. I have to concede with you may have a point about self-determination, and that I perhaps should open my mind to reconsidering why I am OK with one but not the other. Every instinct I have rebels against the idea, though.

Hard questions, aren't they? I have always been impressed with your open-mindedness and willingness to examine your own beliefs, Vee. I agree that emotional issues that seem insurmountable at a particular time may be less difficult at a future time, and that it can be hard to see that possibility from within the depths of despair.

 

[Vee]

I have always been impressed with your open-mindedness and willingness to examine your own beliefs, Vee.

Thank you.

 

[melanalyus]

Wow. I'm not sure how I feel about this situation. As a pharmacist, I KNOW I would have difficulty in dispensing a lethal cocktail to any patient. Thankfully, in the state of MN it's not a decision I need to make professionally....

 

[LizO66]

Just curious, melanalysus, do you think you could ever refuse to dispense a cocktail that's been prescribed?

On the other topic - I believe a terminally ill patient has the right to die as they wish, whether that be by assisted suicide or God's will. In the early 90's, I had to watch my brother suffer from AIDS; organs shutting down, multiple infections, emaciation, no real treatment available. He was going blind, and asked me to sign his "Do Not Resuscitate" order. That was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do in my entire life. Once home, he was given a morphine drip via his porta-cath. The nurse who came to our house showed us, in effect, how to help him die if the pain became too much and wasn't being controlled.

Watching death in slow-motion is horrible for the patient and the family.

I'm thankful to have had such a wonderful brother. He taught me empathy and compassion.

 

[andtckrtoo]

I get irked when I hear that if you choose to take your own life it is dying with dignity. As if dying when you choose to let the Lord above make the decision has no dignity.

I'm confused as to where you got the idea that if people are terminally ill and chose to let nature take its course, it's not dying with dignity. Isn't the ability to die with dignity the ability to die a death you chose? I would think your family members DID die with dignity because they were able to harness the power of their faith to help them. Whether or not others believe in the power of that faith is irrelevant - it worked for them.

But, I do believe that denying the right for an more painless transition is wrong. While I do know occasionally miracles happen and the disease can turn around, those are the exceptions rather than the rule. I think the person just knows when there is no more hope and it's time to go. One of the questions I see a lot of these forums is about knowing when to put a beloved pet down and the answer is invariably - you'll know. One day the dog or cat will just look up at you and you know it's time to help them transition. When that time comes for a human, and as long as the person fully understands and agrees to what is about to happen, I don't see how it can be wrong. I would hope that I would be given that choice. Fortunately, when my mom passed from cancer, her passing was fairly quick and while she was in pain for a while, it was managable until the end. I am ever thankful for that.

 

[melanalyus]

Liz~

This is all preliminary thinking, but I would feel more comfortable if the lethal cocktail was dispensed in a pharamacy that worked closely with the patient's physician. If the physician has a long history of working with terminally ill patients (such as in a hospice situation)? I still don't know if I'd be able to dispense, personally,...knowing that I personally contributed to the termination of another person.

Obviously (and thankfully) I'm not in this type of situation so I cannot say for sure how I would react. But my first reaction, as a professional is that I would not be able to dispense the cocktail. Perhaps this decision is out of ignorance, but I would need to be trained and educated before making a decision such as this,.....as I would hope a physician prescribing this medication would also be specially trained.

We have physicians that are specially trained to treat in Methadone Clinics or Suboxone therapies. How would euthanasia be different?

I just don't know. Interesting topic.

 

[LizO66]

Thanks for that! This is an interesting topic for me, sparked by the whole Plan B controversy where a number of pharmacists said they would not dispense it because of their moral beliefs. While I can respect their belief system, I wonder if that is a valid basis for not dispensing? I work at FDA, and I don't really have the option of saying, "I'm not going to work on that issue because it's against my moral beliefs." I suppose I could (and knowing my supervisors it would be respected), but I feel I have a job to do, even if it's dealing with an issue that I may not personally agree with. Then again, I'm not a pharmacist looking at this from a pharmacist's point of view... I try very hard to look at a situation from as many angles as possible to help me arrive at an informed opinion.

I do agree that there are settings/situations (as you mention) which seem better suited for such situations.

Thanks for your input!