intensitylisa
Cathlete
I am not sure if I missed this somewhere or not. Thanks! :9
Any tentative date scheduled for the release of STS???
- Thread starter intensitylisa
- Start date
I am not sure if I missed this somewhere or not. Thanks! :9
SNM Videos
Administrator
It really is impossible to predict with a project of this size and we learned the hard way along time ago to never give tentative dates for presales until the project is finished and off to the duplicators.
SNM Videos
Administrator
Unfortunately, that only leads to people asking for us to further define the release date and we have just learned not to let ourselves get into this trap. Along with NFL Films we’re working 7 days per week on this project and will certainly keep everyone informed as we reach certain milestones, but trying to determine a release date at this point is impossible and would be foolish to do. We want this project to be the highest quality production we have ever done. Rushing or feeling pressured to meet a tentative release date would only hurt the quality of the project and is not something we want to do.
I understand that you can't give a date, but I don't see why you can't make some kind of estimate to give us an approximate idea of when to expect the workouts. Some of your customers are hoping to get them soon, while others think it may take a while. If you don't communicate to customers ahead of time that the product won't be ready by June or July, for example, then you will have people disappointed because they were hoping it would be ready by then. I don't think that people are so unreasonable that they wouldn't understand if there was some kind of delay, but I think it's only fair to give your customers some idea of when you think the product will be ready. No one is asking you to hurry to get the product out or sacrifice quality to deliver it sooner, but there are customers asking when they can expect STS.
Erica
Erica
SNM Videos
Administrator
RE: Any tentative date scheduled for the release of STS...
Let me first use another company as an example before answering your question directly as it may help you understand our position. A very popular forum software company, VBulletin, recently had a very similar problem with people being upset that they would not give a release date for their new software. They too had learned from the past as we had that giving a “tentative” release date always was turned into “The Release Date” by many of its customers. This caused all kinds of problems for VBulletin as customers felt that VBulletin was not keeping their word. This wasn’t true as VBulletin just tried to honestly estimate when they thought they would have their next version of their software released. Software development is a lot like producing a video, there are a million variables and everyday you have “issues” and unexpected problems. VBulletin learned the same lesson we did many years ago - never give estimated release dates. There are just too many variables and too many things that can go wrong.
We have had a lot of experience with presales on the Internet and though many people are understanding as you say about estimated release dates not being met, many are not. It is just the nature of the Web and how things work online. We’ve had some real wars in the past over estimated release dates not being met and we have learned not to give them under any circumstances.
We will certainly keep you informed on our progress as best we can, but on a project of this size there really isn’t any way we could even attempt to estimate a release date at this early point in post production. If you remember, the 4 day Split took us a little over 90 days after filming to bring to market and that was a pretty quick turnaround. STS has 37 more DVDs than the 4 day Split and it has only been a little over 30 days since we finished filming. Though we have more people working on STS than the 4Day Split, we’re still very early in the post production process and it is way too early to start talking about release dates.
Let me first use another company as an example before answering your question directly as it may help you understand our position. A very popular forum software company, VBulletin, recently had a very similar problem with people being upset that they would not give a release date for their new software. They too had learned from the past as we had that giving a “tentative” release date always was turned into “The Release Date” by many of its customers. This caused all kinds of problems for VBulletin as customers felt that VBulletin was not keeping their word. This wasn’t true as VBulletin just tried to honestly estimate when they thought they would have their next version of their software released. Software development is a lot like producing a video, there are a million variables and everyday you have “issues” and unexpected problems. VBulletin learned the same lesson we did many years ago - never give estimated release dates. There are just too many variables and too many things that can go wrong.
We have had a lot of experience with presales on the Internet and though many people are understanding as you say about estimated release dates not being met, many are not. It is just the nature of the Web and how things work online. We’ve had some real wars in the past over estimated release dates not being met and we have learned not to give them under any circumstances.
We will certainly keep you informed on our progress as best we can, but on a project of this size there really isn’t any way we could even attempt to estimate a release date at this early point in post production. If you remember, the 4 day Split took us a little over 90 days after filming to bring to market and that was a pretty quick turnaround. STS has 37 more DVDs than the 4 day Split and it has only been a little over 30 days since we finished filming. Though we have more people working on STS than the 4Day Split, we’re still very early in the post production process and it is way too early to start talking about release dates.
meowracer
Cathlete
RE: Any tentative date scheduled for the release of STS...
This is the way I see it... (if anybody is interested!!)
I am super excited to have STS in my little hands. But, although I consider myself to be in shape, there is always room for improvement. Cathe's DVDs are already so awesome and you can mix and match what you have to create really interesting and tough workouts each week, and increase the weights you are lifting so that when STS does arrive, you will be in that much better shape, and therefore, benefit that much more from what it can do for you. I figure it will be a good long while before STS is here and rather than focusing on an arrival date, I will just anticipate its arrival and be prepared to have it whip my butt b/c I'll be able to lift even more at that point :7
This is the way I see it... (if anybody is interested!!)
I am super excited to have STS in my little hands. But, although I consider myself to be in shape, there is always room for improvement. Cathe's DVDs are already so awesome and you can mix and match what you have to create really interesting and tough workouts each week, and increase the weights you are lifting so that when STS does arrive, you will be in that much better shape, and therefore, benefit that much more from what it can do for you. I figure it will be a good long while before STS is here and rather than focusing on an arrival date, I will just anticipate its arrival and be prepared to have it whip my butt b/c I'll be able to lift even more at that point :7
RE: Any tentative date scheduled for the release of STS...
Here's my take on it. The more we keep asking SNM when or if they can give a tentative release date the less they are working on STS! SNM has answered this question so many times and each and every time they have said the same thing. There is no possible way to give a tentative release date. I am super excited to but lets just let them work.
Okay I feel better.
nkuangel
Here's my take on it. The more we keep asking SNM when or if they can give a tentative release date the less they are working on STS! SNM has answered this question so many times and each and every time they have said the same thing. There is no possible way to give a tentative release date. I am super excited to but lets just let them work.
Okay I feel better.
nkuangel
RE: Any tentative date scheduled for the release of STS...
>A very popular forum software company,
>VBulletin, recently had a very similar problem with people
>being upset that they would not give a release date for their
>new software.
The difference between vbulletin and STS is that vbulletin customer hadn't pre-ordered. (I am also a vbulletin customer, and followed that situation closely.)
I can respect not wanting to get backed into a corner, however, I think some people want to know how long their money will be tied up... 3 more months? 6 more months? Another year?
If you didn't take preorders, your situation, imo, would be comparable to vbulletin.
>A very popular forum software company,
>VBulletin, recently had a very similar problem with people
>being upset that they would not give a release date for their
>new software.
The difference between vbulletin and STS is that vbulletin customer hadn't pre-ordered. (I am also a vbulletin customer, and followed that situation closely.)
I can respect not wanting to get backed into a corner, however, I think some people want to know how long their money will be tied up... 3 more months? 6 more months? Another year?
If you didn't take preorders, your situation, imo, would be comparable to vbulletin.
RE: Any tentative date scheduled for the release of STS...
Major technology companies, especially those with corporate customers, do provide release dates for products that are much more complex than a fitness series or community forum software. And these dates are not tentative, they are commitments that they are expected to meet. When dates are missed, which does occasionally happen, the customers expect both an explanation and a plan for when the release will occur. The employees of these companies are expected to accurately provide time requirements for their part of the project, accounting for 'unexpected events'. And they are expected to meet those times.
Erica
Major technology companies, especially those with corporate customers, do provide release dates for products that are much more complex than a fitness series or community forum software. And these dates are not tentative, they are commitments that they are expected to meet. When dates are missed, which does occasionally happen, the customers expect both an explanation and a plan for when the release will occur. The employees of these companies are expected to accurately provide time requirements for their part of the project, accounting for 'unexpected events'. And they are expected to meet those times.
Erica
SNM Videos
Administrator
RE: Any tentative date scheduled for the release of STS...
That is why we tell people up front that we make no guarantees on a release date and offer a no hassle cancelation policy. If you have any other expectations you should simply not preorder. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on this, but our policy is not going to change.
That is why we tell people up front that we make no guarantees on a release date and offer a no hassle cancelation policy. If you have any other expectations you should simply not preorder. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on this, but our policy is not going to change.
SNM Videos
Administrator
RE: Any tentative date scheduled for the release of STS...
Really? That hasn't been my experience with Microsoft.
But anyway were beating a dead horse here and it is time to move on. We’ve stated our position on this numerous times in the past so there should be no surprises with this presale. We’re just going to have to agree to disagree. Again, we offer a no hassle cancelation policy and anyone who feels a release date is an important factor in making a decision on preordering should simply wait until STS is released to order.
Really? That hasn't been my experience with Microsoft.
But anyway were beating a dead horse here and it is time to move on. We’ve stated our position on this numerous times in the past so there should be no surprises with this presale. We’re just going to have to agree to disagree. Again, we offer a no hassle cancelation policy and anyone who feels a release date is an important factor in making a decision on preordering should simply wait until STS is released to order.
L Sass
Cathlete
RE: Any tentative date scheduled for the release of STS...
Interesting to read this discourse.
WE can disagree all we want, but the fact remians that SNM has stated its policy, and stated that it will not change the policy. It seems to me that a company can choose to set its own policies and so long as they are not illegal, the primary factor of that company's success is customer satisfaction. As Chris said, if any of us who preordered is not satisfied with SNM's policies or how they do business, we have the option of cancelling our order.
I thought the OP asked a legitimate question, which has been answered. I'll keep my preorder in place because regardless of how long I wait, I've gotten the best price with my early preorder and I've NEVER been unhappy with any Cathe product. But I can only speak for my own satisfaction as a customer. Have a great day all.
Lorrie
www.picturetrail.com/lsass
Interesting to read this discourse.
WE can disagree all we want, but the fact remians that SNM has stated its policy, and stated that it will not change the policy. It seems to me that a company can choose to set its own policies and so long as they are not illegal, the primary factor of that company's success is customer satisfaction. As Chris said, if any of us who preordered is not satisfied with SNM's policies or how they do business, we have the option of cancelling our order.
I thought the OP asked a legitimate question, which has been answered. I'll keep my preorder in place because regardless of how long I wait, I've gotten the best price with my early preorder and I've NEVER been unhappy with any Cathe product. But I can only speak for my own satisfaction as a customer. Have a great day all.
Lorrie
www.picturetrail.com/lsass
Vee
Cathlete
RE: Any tentative date scheduled for the release of STS...
Erica,
I worked 18 years in Software. I agree 100%. Every project has a deadline. In software, we use estimation techniques like function point analysis, that have been honed over time, to make estimates. For something creative, or where the requirements are not frozen fully, we develop the project in mini-cycles in an iterative plan. The end date at any point of time is only estimated for a small set of features, not the whole thing.
With all this, most projects are NOT completed on time. Check this out for instance:
http://blogs.zdnet.com/ITFacts/?p=5959
You can get more statistics from sources like SEI which will tell you the same thing - an astounding percentage of projects are delayed.
Project planning is used in so many spheres - software development, construction, producing a fitness DVD....I dont think the estimation and risk management techniques can carry over from one sphere to another without taking into account context. Basic rules though:
- unless you are doing something cookie cutter (which STS is not), time cannot be tightly estimated. The more leeway for creativity you want in the project, the larger the challenge with estimation.
- the more the dependencies on third parties (DVD replication, graphics design, scoring an original soundtrack) the larger the risk of slippage.
~* Vrinda *~
Erica,
I worked 18 years in Software. I agree 100%. Every project has a deadline. In software, we use estimation techniques like function point analysis, that have been honed over time, to make estimates. For something creative, or where the requirements are not frozen fully, we develop the project in mini-cycles in an iterative plan. The end date at any point of time is only estimated for a small set of features, not the whole thing.
With all this, most projects are NOT completed on time. Check this out for instance:
http://blogs.zdnet.com/ITFacts/?p=5959
You can get more statistics from sources like SEI which will tell you the same thing - an astounding percentage of projects are delayed.
Project planning is used in so many spheres - software development, construction, producing a fitness DVD....I dont think the estimation and risk management techniques can carry over from one sphere to another without taking into account context. Basic rules though:
- unless you are doing something cookie cutter (which STS is not), time cannot be tightly estimated. The more leeway for creativity you want in the project, the larger the challenge with estimation.
- the more the dependencies on third parties (DVD replication, graphics design, scoring an original soundtrack) the larger the risk of slippage.
~* Vrinda *~
RE: Any tentative date scheduled for the release of STS...
>- unless you are doing something cookie cutter (which STS is
>not), time cannot be tightly estimated. The more leeway for
>creativity you want in the project, the larger the challenge
>with estimation.
>- the more the dependencies on third parties (DVD replication,
>graphics design, scoring an original soundtrack) the larger
>the risk of slippage.
>
>
>~* Vrinda *~
Vrinda -
I understand that and that is why I was only asking for a rough estimate of when SNM expects STS to be done - end of 2008, late fall, etc. I certainly don't think that's too much to ask.
Erica
>- unless you are doing something cookie cutter (which STS is
>not), time cannot be tightly estimated. The more leeway for
>creativity you want in the project, the larger the challenge
>with estimation.
>- the more the dependencies on third parties (DVD replication,
>graphics design, scoring an original soundtrack) the larger
>the risk of slippage.
>
>
>~* Vrinda *~
Vrinda -
I understand that and that is why I was only asking for a rough estimate of when SNM expects STS to be done - end of 2008, late fall, etc. I certainly don't think that's too much to ask.
Erica
Vee
Cathlete
RE: Any tentative date scheduled for the release of STS...
Erica,
I hope I did not sound like I was beating up on you. That was not my intention. I was only trying to explain the challenges as I see them.
I dont know if you have been a long time Cathe customer. Those of us who have been know the history of why SNM is being gun shy with a date and can appreciate their stance. You may be able to accept delays, but the pressure has been quite disproportionate, almost like it is an emergency supply they are dispatching, when it got close to the indicative date/timeframe in the past.
~* Vrinda *~
Erica,
I hope I did not sound like I was beating up on you. That was not my intention. I was only trying to explain the challenges as I see them.
I dont know if you have been a long time Cathe customer. Those of us who have been know the history of why SNM is being gun shy with a date and can appreciate their stance. You may be able to accept delays, but the pressure has been quite disproportionate, almost like it is an emergency supply they are dispatching, when it got close to the indicative date/timeframe in the past.
~* Vrinda *~
SNM Videos
Administrator
RE: Any tentative date scheduled for the release of STS...
I’m actually surprised that even 16% of software projects are finished on time. I actually spend the majority of time working on software development. It is standard operating procedure for almost every software development company, including ours, to establish deadlines for their programmers… but this has nothing to do with the project being released on time.
With software development you’re creating something that is unique and complex. Things never go as planned or hoped and delays are the norm. I can’t remember the last time Microsoft released a product on time. Vista was several years late and still doesn’t work very well.
As a company we also purchase a tremendous amount of software and computers each year. I can’t remember an order from Dell in which things went smoothly and everything was delivered on time. Our last order with DELL took over 6 months to be completed and if wasn’t for the threat of a lawsuit and over 80 phone calls and 112 emails I doubt we would have ever received our order.
I’m actually surprised that even 16% of software projects are finished on time. I actually spend the majority of time working on software development. It is standard operating procedure for almost every software development company, including ours, to establish deadlines for their programmers… but this has nothing to do with the project being released on time.
With software development you’re creating something that is unique and complex. Things never go as planned or hoped and delays are the norm. I can’t remember the last time Microsoft released a product on time. Vista was several years late and still doesn’t work very well.
As a company we also purchase a tremendous amount of software and computers each year. I can’t remember an order from Dell in which things went smoothly and everything was delivered on time. Our last order with DELL took over 6 months to be completed and if wasn’t for the threat of a lawsuit and over 80 phone calls and 112 emails I doubt we would have ever received our order.
Vee
Cathlete
RE: Any tentative date scheduled for the release of STS...
Chris,
That article says that even with the 16% that did get finished on time, on average deliver 42% of the originally planned features.
I bet nobody wants that from STS
Gee. I feel for you. Managing projects software *and* filming, or being on the receiving end of other people's project management!
~* Vrinda *~
Chris,
That article says that even with the 16% that did get finished on time, on average deliver 42% of the originally planned features.
I bet nobody wants that from STS
Gee. I feel for you. Managing projects software *and* filming, or being on the receiving end of other people's project management!
~* Vrinda *~