LaughingWater
Cathlete
Okay, this might be a dumb question, but is there a branch of Christianity out there that accepts homosexuality as normal?
Edit: Found one! http://wabaptists.org/
Edit: Found one! http://wabaptists.org/
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Anti-Gay Sentiment Surprise. An "Ugh" rant.
- Thread starter LaughingWater
- Start date
Wow- interesting thread. For the record, I think being gay is completely OK and have no objection to gay marriage or gay-anything-else. I also do not think Christians (or any other religious groups) are ignorant. I think the religious opinions that have been voiced here so far have been tolerant and thoughtful.
What I have always wondered is why, even if people believe being gay is a sin and a choice, is it not OK for gay people to be married? If everyone sins against G_D, how does that make homosexuals any different?
I mean, being gay isn't one of the seven deadly sins. It's not against any of the ten commandments.
So if it is just a minor sin, like eating bats (Deuteronomy 11:13-19 and 14:11-18) or rabbits (Deuteronomy 11:6), why can rabbit- or bat-eaters get married but gay people can't? Why can murderers, coveters, sloths, gluttons, the vain, the wrathful, the envious, the lustful and the prideful get married, but not homosexuals?
I know that the Bible does specifically address homosexuality (mostly in Leviticus), and that the basic message is:
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
But fornicators, idolaters, effeminate people, thieves, covetous types, drunkards, revilers and swindlers can all get married to each other as long as they're not gay? I have no problem with religion dictating what is right and wrong, for those who choose to folow the faith. But it does seem a little arbitrary to pick out one thing, arguably the most harmless item in that whole list, and forbid just those people from full participation in society. I'm not suggesting that anyone on this forum is doing that - I'm referring to the fact that gay marriage is mostly illegal in the U.S.
I'm honestly not trying to start a fight, I've just always wondered.
What I have always wondered is why, even if people believe being gay is a sin and a choice, is it not OK for gay people to be married? If everyone sins against G_D, how does that make homosexuals any different?
I mean, being gay isn't one of the seven deadly sins. It's not against any of the ten commandments.
So if it is just a minor sin, like eating bats (Deuteronomy 11:13-19 and 14:11-18) or rabbits (Deuteronomy 11:6), why can rabbit- or bat-eaters get married but gay people can't? Why can murderers, coveters, sloths, gluttons, the vain, the wrathful, the envious, the lustful and the prideful get married, but not homosexuals?
I know that the Bible does specifically address homosexuality (mostly in Leviticus), and that the basic message is:
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
But fornicators, idolaters, effeminate people, thieves, covetous types, drunkards, revilers and swindlers can all get married to each other as long as they're not gay? I have no problem with religion dictating what is right and wrong, for those who choose to folow the faith. But it does seem a little arbitrary to pick out one thing, arguably the most harmless item in that whole list, and forbid just those people from full participation in society. I'm not suggesting that anyone on this forum is doing that - I'm referring to the fact that gay marriage is mostly illegal in the U.S.
I'm honestly not trying to start a fight, I've just always wondered.
Liann
Cathlete
Keep in mind that "Christianity" is a VERY broad term. A ton of completely different religions use it. There obviously are "Christians" who believe it is fine because you have openly gay ministers etc...
As far as the other question about the bible, I think there are also "Christians" who do not see it as the end all. They follow Christ's example and his teachings but they don't take everything as literal. I've never understood how you reconcile the Old with the New Testament. Basically it would have sucked to live in the OT. One toe out of line and you were stoned.
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LauraMax
Cathlete
Oh I know you're not Liann. I'm just trying to wrap my arms around the thought process of those who do. And will continue to, no matter what.
Silly of me, I know. Many of them are the same people who don't believe in evolution and/or think the Holocaust never happened.So being effeminate, lustful, envious or drunk are sins, huh? Heaven must be an awfully lonely place.
LaughingWater
Cathlete
Yeah, I'm familiar with Christianity in general ~ I was raised Catholic. I was just wondering if any of the branches were cool with gay people. And I found one!
My husband was raised Catholic too, and while I've veered off into Buddhism, he's still adrift ~ unhappy with the Catholic Church but still Christian in his heart. I wonder if he'd like the Baptists I linked to in my previous post.
My husband was raised Catholic too, and while I've veered off into Buddhism, he's still adrift ~ unhappy with the Catholic Church but still Christian in his heart. I wonder if he'd like the Baptists I linked to in my previous post.
LauraMax
Cathlete
Quakers. If I can ever bring myself to become a member of an organized religion, it'll be the Friends for sure.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_quak.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_quak.htm
toughYrun
Cathlete
I’ve got a couple of homosexual relatives that are both in long term, committed relationships. Barring the redefinition of marriage, I think the government should, at the very least, allow them to enter into civil unions so that they have the same protections under the law that heterosexual couples do.
I believe that sexuality and one’s preferences are very complicated matters. For instance, is pedophilia a choice? What about sadism? And prudish behavior? Etc….. I tend to think that each of those preferences is probably the result of experiences during formative years. Why can’t heterosexuality and homosexuality be the result of early experiences, thereby leading one to a certain sexual preference?
All that being said, I don’t think that distinguishing between choices and innateness should be a part of the argument. Rather, consenting adults should be able to live their lives however they see fit. Period.
I believe that sexuality and one’s preferences are very complicated matters. For instance, is pedophilia a choice? What about sadism? And prudish behavior? Etc….. I tend to think that each of those preferences is probably the result of experiences during formative years. Why can’t heterosexuality and homosexuality be the result of early experiences, thereby leading one to a certain sexual preference?
All that being said, I don’t think that distinguishing between choices and innateness should be a part of the argument. Rather, consenting adults should be able to live their lives however they see fit. Period.
pink_fortitude
Banned
Paul hated women?Ha! You cannot convince me Paul wasn't repressed. I don't know much about his personal life, but that dude sure did hate women!
So Liann, what you're saying is, it was OK for those men to have more than one wife & a ton of kids, but it's not anymore, right? I guess that "new rule" came with the new testament? Therefore, it was OK at one point, but not at another point?
There are more inconsistencies in the bible than there are in the US constitution, & that's saying an awful lot.
His teachings for husbands was to love their wives MORE than themselves and to honor them, and he had women working with him that he commanded the churches to treat them with the utmost respect and help them in all they needed and do all they asked. How is that hate?As for it being okay to have more than one wife in the OT and having it changed in the NT testament to only being able to have one wife, NOT TRUE! For a man to be able to be an elder in the church, he can't have been married more than one time but there is absolutely nothing stating that man needs to only have one wife. There are churches in Africa right now where men have many wives and it isn't frowned upon and he definitely isn't "in sin" (I hate that phrase). As to why a man would want to have that many women that he has to take care of (when I think one is hard enough) is something I consider when questioning his sanity.
Culturally - at least historically in the bible and for most kingdoms of that time, when a man married more women it is for status and is not a declaration of his religious beliefs: he has more money so he can have more children, afford more wives (I'm sure even women back then could shop ;]), etc. What you have stated aren't inconsistencies, just totally untrue "facts." I know that there have been many men and women who have distorted the bible and used for their own personal gain, tarnishing the image of God for others and turning Him into something completely perverted from what He really is. It really is a shame.
God doesn't need to speak through anyone anymore because he speaks to us directly. There are people today doing great damage to God and those of us who follow and believe and we are just as angry or even more so as the secular world at what they do. People who don't know about God listen and believe these people and think that's what everyone thinks - that's like saying all Muslims are suicide bombers and will kill everyone they can't convert! If you take what you know from 9/11 and use only that in what you know of the Islam faith to form your opinion without learning further... well, you can see where I am going.I am not going to comment on the gay issue, it's none of my business what others do, I just did not want read lies about God and the bible and be silent. I don't know who gave you the information you recite about the bible, Laura, but it just isn't true. If you really want to know what is in the bible or are going to share information about it you should read it yourself and study the backgrounds of the different cultures/tribes/kings/kingdoms involved and mentioned. Like anything, going straight to the source is the best bet, and checking history facts with what you read is even better.
I have been a follower for 10 years and I don't even believe what I hear or read at first glance; I always follow up and do a history check before I will believe anything, even from reputable teachers and my own evangelist if he states his opinion. If you have any questions, you can pm me and I would be glad to discuss anything bible/Jesus/God related with you. These comments aren't just directly towards Laura, they are also in response to a great many posts I read. I won't be looking at this thread anymore, but I did want to say something, even if it was only a little. I know it probably won't change anyone's mind, but I please ask that, like with anything, people educate themselves before they speak as some sort of an authority on any subject. And if you don't know or understand something, please ask someone who does.
Just as a side note, we homeschool our children and we have been studying history from the beginning of time up until the Middle Ages (but have been reading the bible with them since they were born), which is where we are now. Since the book of Acts my son has observed and made many comments on how the "Christians" since the book of Acts (and you can even see how others try to pervert the truth in Acts) committed such horrible atrocities in the name of God and they weren't even true and God never would tell anyone to do - and it has really angered him - all of us actually! I can understand why some people see what they do of God if you don't look deeper.
Sorry this is so long.
Melissa
LaughingWater
Cathlete
Cool post, Melissa.
LauraMax
Cathlete
Ummm yeah, Paul, the same guy who said a woman doesn't rule over her own body, only her husband does; the same guy who said men shouldn't have to cover their heads, but women should b/c man is the image of God but woman is the image of man; the same guy who said woman should not be permitted to teach the bible, only man should; the same guy who's believed by feminists to be the father of misogyny.
I got my information from my history classes. History of political thought, to be exact. I know this is probably not a valid source to many since it didn't come from the mouth of an ordained priest, but it's valid enough for me.
I got my information from my history classes. History of political thought, to be exact. I know this is probably not a valid source to many since it didn't come from the mouth of an ordained priest, but it's valid enough for me.
Yeah, I'm familiar with Christianity in general ~ I was raised Catholic. I was just wondering if any of the branches were cool with gay people. And I found one!
My husband was raised Catholic too, and while I've veered off into Buddhism, he's still adrift ~ unhappy with the Catholic Church but still Christian in his heart. I wonder if he'd like the Baptists I linked to in my previous post.
LaughingWater - The Episcopal church (at least in the U.S.) is currently undergoing reformation of sorts. In 2003 they confirmed the consecration of a bishop from New Hampshire who is openly gay and in a long-term relationship with another man.
There is a lot of controversy within the church as whole regarding homosexuality (some are predicting an eventual schism in the world-wide church), but it's nice to see huge chunks of the denomination accepting gays and lesbians as full members of the church, as opposed to sinners.
As an aside, I'm a recovering Catholic. I once heard someone refer to the Episcopal church as "Catholic-Lite"...that made me giggle.
LaughingWater
Cathlete
Heh. Like "Diet Catholic".
Speaking of, my mom saw my "Cathlete" t-shirt and thought (hoped!) it meant "Catholic Athlete".
Here in Canada, "the true north strong and free" (a phrase from our national anthem), gay marriage is legal, has been for a few years now.
workoutaholic
Cathlete
Wow, I haven't been able to go back and read everything since I last posted, but did read a few things. I had a lot of the same questions about the Bible, and still do sometimes...how can the Bible not be corrupted? Aren't there inconsistencies? Aren't there so many claims made by the Bible that have been proven to be untrue?
There are some really great books out there that address these questions in detail, on both sides (for or against reliance on the Bible). There's Evidence That Demands a Verdict (for), and then there's some books/a website by John Loftus (against) that are pretty interesting. There's lots of others. There are also a growing number of intelligent scientists who do not buy into macro-evolution (I think we all believe, and can witness, micro-evolution). I think a lot of them don't necessarily believe the Bible, but they haven't been convinced that macro-evolution is fact. I've also read a lot about taking what Paul said about women in context (for example, not allowing them to teach was not because Paul hated women, but it was because they weren't at the time educated.)
I think I'll bow out now, too. Peace out!
There are some really great books out there that address these questions in detail, on both sides (for or against reliance on the Bible). There's Evidence That Demands a Verdict (for), and then there's some books/a website by John Loftus (against) that are pretty interesting. There's lots of others. There are also a growing number of intelligent scientists who do not buy into macro-evolution (I think we all believe, and can witness, micro-evolution). I think a lot of them don't necessarily believe the Bible, but they haven't been convinced that macro-evolution is fact. I've also read a lot about taking what Paul said about women in context (for example, not allowing them to teach was not because Paul hated women, but it was because they weren't at the time educated.)
I think I'll bow out now, too. Peace out!
Sigh...I know. (hums...O, Canada, our home and native land....
). Maybe we'll follow suit eventually (crosses fingers).Sigh...I know. (hums...O, Canada, our home and native land....
Yay!! How cool, a lot of my neighbours south of the border don't know much about Canada, so I am happy to hear you humming
I am very good friends with several gay people, and was so pleased when the law finally, rightfully, allowed people to marry the person they love. Isn't that part of what freedom is all about? (hums....o'er the land of the free...)
morningstar
Cathlete
As a Canadian, I always feel incredibly lucky to have been born here and to live here. I have never been more proud than when we legalized gay marriage, with really very little hoopla and political gamesmanship, all things considered - it could have been much worse. A gay friend at the time of legalization said that it was stupid, why would any gay man want to marry? He is now happily married and nesting with the man of his dreams.
We have strongly conservative people in Canada too, that are against gay marriage, etc. But for the most part, Canadians live and let live and rarely rouse themselves to either fight something or promote something actively. Some may call that apathy, some call it a willingness to let the Universe unfold as it will and a focus on things that really matter to us.
Our politics is usually quite civilized and our political scandals are weak sisters, hardly worth the press. We pay way more attention to what the politicians are trying to accomplish than we do to the politicans themselves - and their families. I don't even know the name of the Prime Minister's wife, or my Mayor's. We just don't drag them into everything and we don't elect people based on who they choose to sleep with or marry. We had our first female Prime Minister ages ago - and she was a conservative! We have openly gay politicians that are elected to high office, with their sexuality hardly mentioned, and never raised as an issue by their opposing candidates (people may not vote for them based on their sexuality, however). Those same gay politicans are often made cabinet ministers to boot.
We don't have it perfect here, but we're working on it, and, by god, I can't imagine wanting to live anywhere else. Our national anthem still brings tears to my eyes, every time I hear it or sing it. Glorious and free, indeed.
We have strongly conservative people in Canada too, that are against gay marriage, etc. But for the most part, Canadians live and let live and rarely rouse themselves to either fight something or promote something actively. Some may call that apathy, some call it a willingness to let the Universe unfold as it will and a focus on things that really matter to us.
Our politics is usually quite civilized and our political scandals are weak sisters, hardly worth the press. We pay way more attention to what the politicians are trying to accomplish than we do to the politicans themselves - and their families. I don't even know the name of the Prime Minister's wife, or my Mayor's. We just don't drag them into everything and we don't elect people based on who they choose to sleep with or marry. We had our first female Prime Minister ages ago - and she was a conservative! We have openly gay politicians that are elected to high office, with their sexuality hardly mentioned, and never raised as an issue by their opposing candidates (people may not vote for them based on their sexuality, however). Those same gay politicans are often made cabinet ministers to boot.
We don't have it perfect here, but we're working on it, and, by god, I can't imagine wanting to live anywhere else. Our national anthem still brings tears to my eyes, every time I hear it or sing it. Glorious and free, indeed.