Strengthen shoulders without injuring the rotator cuff?

jennifermaria

jennifermaria

Cathlete
Hi everyone,

With Cathe busy filming, I'm hoping someone can help me out with my question(s) :).

Thanks to 4DS and other heavy weight lifting, I'm finally starting to gain some strength in my shoulders. One of my favorite moves for its effectiveness is the military/overhead press. I'd like to move up in weights with that exercies, but I've found that when I do that (even in 1 pound increments), that I feel a lot of stress in my rotator cuff. In fact, after doing the 4 sets of overhead presses in 4DS, I always feel sore in that area, and I'm scared that I'm risking injury...

Could someone please tell me:

(1) What's the best way to do overhead presses with minimal stress to the rotator cuff? I listen to Cathe's cues on form and make sure that my weights are still visible in my peripheral vision when I raise them, but I still really feel strain in my rotator cuff :(

(2) How do I encourage increased strength if going up in weight is stressing my rotator cuff?

Thanks in advance!!!
Jennifer
 
I'd suggest some exercises to strengthen the rotator cuffs: the YTI or YTWL exercises, for example (I'll explain!). Lying face-down on a bench, or seated and bent over with back holding its natural curve, or even lying face-down on a stability ball, do the following with LIGHT weights:
y: start with arms hanging toward the floor, palms facing. Lift the arms out and up so that someone looking down on you would see a "Y" formation, while rotating your thumbs to the ceiling. Hold for a few beats, then repeat.
T: same starting position, but lift the arms out to the side.
I: same starting position, but lift arms back along your side.
W: start with arms bent about 90%, palms facing each other, then lift arms up and out to form a "w" with the arms.
L: start with arms down towards floor, palms facing back. Lift your elbows like doing a lat row with elbows out (Cathe does these in 4DS), stop at the top, when upper arms are parallel to the ground, then keep elbows where they are and rotate the lower arm up and forward so they end up parallel to the ground as well.

The "YTWL" series is shown in Lou Schuler's "The New Rules of Lifting for Women"


For form on OH presses: I suggest always using dumbells rather than a barbell. The former will allow you to find a 'grove' for the movement that is friendly to your joints, whereas the latter can lock you into a movement path that is not so friendly.

Also, you may find that a position with palms facing, and/or with elbows out at about a 45-degree angle in front of you is better.


Don't be overly ambitious on overhead presses. The shoulder can be a delicate area, and if you try to push too much, too soon, you risk injury.

If the 'soreness' after shoulder work is just DOMS or pain in the belly of the muscle, then putting an ice pack (or a bag of frozen peas) on the area for 20 minutes after exercising can help prevent/reduce swelling, which it might be.

If the 'soreness' is actually pain in the joint, then I highly recommend having a physical therapist look at it to see if there are contraindications in your case for doing the move.
 
Thanks, Kathryn!! :)

Yikes, now I'm a little concerned, since the soreness after overhead presses is in my joint, although I've been doing the move as Cathe and crew do them--with my palms facing outward, rather than towards each other. I find that when I use the latter position, I don't feel as much strain. I think I'll try that next time I do the shoulder workout for 4DS.

I'll definitely do those rotator cuff exercises to strengthen this sucker, though :).

Jennifer
 
Dealing with the same thing -overhead anything is out...full range of motion - out - its all in stabilization - been to orthosurgeon, our pts here at the hospital, forget deltoid raises....keep thumbs rotated out in pushups and make them close grip pushups....check out the codman exercises on the net.....
 
Is is best for me, then, to simply avoid overhead presses altogher? If so, what's a good substitute for them? My understanding is that it's a great overall shoulder exercise because it hits the lateral, frontal, and rear all at the same time, so is there another exercise also that hits all three at once?

I am reading up on rotator cuff injuries and now I'm really spooked LOL. I never really had issues until 4DS, and I think it's because there are the pyramid sets, followed by the isolation presses. My rotator cuff probably can't handle all of those reps. I've done overhead presses in her other workouts and didn't experience strain on my rotator cuff.

One last form question: should my elbows be out to my sides in the starting position, or should they be rotated inwards slightly? And when I raise my hands, should I be going straight up, or should I press up at a slight angle forward, so that in the end position, my arm is at a 10% angle, rather than perpendicular to the ground?

Ok, that was actually two questions, but inquiring minds need to know ;).

Jennifer
 
I'm almost 47,never had a problem despite 30 years consistent workouts...till this year.....following 2 years of not being able to sleep on one side,the OTHER side started burning...overhead presses - strong implication....did every "natural" healing thing Icould and finally, some relief with cortisone shots....SO - from the physical therapists, athletes, ortho surgeons, chiropractors - guess what - no more overhead, full range of motion weight lifting - not even on the ball, not even - well, I got shot down every alternative I tried.....pushups are stabilized - ie.close grip...bi's and tri's are ok, but just about EVERYTHING is modified - and you can still have a good workout...the execises the gal described above are great, as are the "codman" exercises....I grieve lateal raises, frontal raises, etc, but the bursa go on fire...

Why - I bemoan - well, you gotta choose - be mega strong and ripped for a while or go for the long haul.....SOME people can go forever with no wear and tear..........most can't....

You're in good comopany.....
 
Hi rnyogamom,

Sorry, I'm a little unclear... Are you saying you don't do shoulder exercises at all, or that you do them in modified fashion? If the latter, how do you modify? When you say you can't do them in full range of motion, do you attempt them in a partial range of motion?
 
>Is is best for me, then, to simply avoid overhead presses
>altogher? If so, what's a good substitute for them? My
>understanding is that it's a great overall shoulder exercise
>because it hits the lateral, frontal, and rear all at the same
>time, so is there another exercise also that hits all three at
>once?

There's really no other exercise that hits all three heads at once, so to get the same effect, you'd need to do one exercise each for lateral, anterior and posterior shoulders. Never forget the rear shoulder moves (an area that is typically weaker than it should be to prevent shoulder problems). And since anterior delts are assisting muscles in all chest-pressing exercises, and they are also used more in everyday activities than are side or rear delts, they don't really need to be isolated. I find my posture (and my shoulders)improved once I started removing isolated anterior work and making sure to do rear shoulder exercises with all my shoulder workouts. The "7-minute rotator cuff solution" book by Jerry Robinson http://www.amazon.com/7-Minute-Rota...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206626025&sr=8-1 highly recommends not doing isolated anterior delt work (the book is currently OOP, which is a shame, because it gives lots of good advice for avoiding and rehabbing rotator cuff problems, including moves to avoid, specific exercises, and techniques.


>One last form question: should my elbows be out to my sides in
>the starting position, or should they be rotated inwards
>slightly? And when I raise my hands, should I be going
>straight up, or should I press up at a slight angle forward,
>so that in the end position, my arm is at a 10% angle, rather
>than perpendicular to the ground?

Start with elbows a bit in front of the plane of your body, or even out to about 45-degrees from your body. You can even do presses with your elbows in front of the body (starting in the position that looks like the front position of a 'pec deck' fly) and pressing straight up.

If you start with elbows forward of the plane of the body, press straight up, so tha the pull of gravity works directly on the muscle.

Another tip I forgot previously: when doing ANY upper body work, ALWAYS keep your shoulders back and down. It can be easy to forget this when doing oh presses, but this position of the shoulders keeps them in the most favorable position to avoid impingement.
 
> up on rotator cuff injuries and now I'm really
>spooked LOL. I never really had issues until 4DS, and I think
>it's because there are the pyramid sets, followed by the
>isolation presses.

In addition to modifying form, try putting longer rests between sets to allow for some recovery. Don't go on to the next set until you feel ready for it.
 
> up on rotator cuff injuries and now I'm really
>spooked LOL. I never really had issues until 4DS, and I think
>it's because there are the pyramid sets, followed by the
>isolation presses.

In addition to modifying form, try putting longer rests between sets to allow for some recovery. Don't go on to the next set until you feel ready for it.
 
<Never forget the rear shoulder moves (an area that is typically weaker than it should be to prevent shoulder problems). And since anterior delts are assisting muscles in all chest-pressing exercises, and they are also used more in everyday activities than are side or rear delts, they don't really need to be isolated. I find my posture (and my shoulders)improved once I started removing isolated anterior work and making sure to do rear shoulder exercises with all my shoulder workouts.>

Absolutely 100%! I have been plagued with a rotator injury for over 1 1/2 yrs (I havent given it the rest it needs) - Once I stopped working Chest & Anterior Delts equally I have seen the greatest improvement is posture. The "rounded forward shoulder cap" is also greatly improved. My rotator cuff is something that needs time to heal & when I've given it time it improves. I will forever change how I work the upper body.

FYI: I originaly injured it during Phase 3 of X & I can tell you I believe it was all the pushups combined with too heavy a load for anterior shoulders.
 
Sorry, one more question :). (I think, ha!!)

So you've convinced me to avoid (or at least greatly reduce) the anterior delt work... Now please forgive my ignorance, but what is the anterior delt? Is that the front part of the shoulder? And if so, what are the exercises that isolate it, and should therefore be minimized?

Thanks in advance!
 
Yes - anterior is the front of the shoulder, so front raises, for example, focus on that muscle. The rotator cuff solution does have an anterior raise in it (going from memory here - have misplaced my copy) but you use very light weights and raise the arms w/ a bit of a bend in the elbow, palms facing, arms out about 45 degrees... you're lifting in a standing 'Y' position from the 'hips' area to just below shoulder height. You WILL feel it in the biceps. I'll look and see if I can find a picture of it.
 
It hits the anterior deltoid and that part where it drops down into the biceps. I will do some digging for the book. They have reasoning behind why they recommend that over regular front raises with arms straight out in front and it has to do with pressure on the muscles and overworking the anterior delt.

I personally don't do many anterior delt raises anymore because I am so unbalanced (chest stronger than back) that I get the anterior delts with the chest work (which I've cut back on).

I just got gilad's express workouts and his shoulder workout has some rotator cuff work in it.
 
HI Jen,
You're right, I was unclear - I WAS saying to avoid overhead presses altogether - and I choke spitting that out - I never went to extremes,always used good form (I'm ace certified with lots of seminars in adapting things for the injured, seniors etc - hence my stunned reaction when I started showing impingement and arthritis!).....I do not believe you can get better advice than Kathryn's posts.....she is right on with everything I have read, and heard from the surgeon and physical therapists...

I just cancelled STS for the second time - realizing - you don't have to kill yourself to have defined muscles....

Kathryn, I didn't even realize that ant.delts don't need isolation - yet when I thought about it, you are so right - and isolating them yanks on the ball and socket even with good form!!!

The advice on always pulling shoulders back and down - thereby, "puffing" out your ribs - is excellent - and at the same time lengthening the neck - the space between shoulders and neck - excellent....has helped me tremendously.....

Most people do NOT workout consistently throughout their lives,but for the few nuts...uh, dedicated workout folks, (I have worked out consistently since I was 13) - the wear and tear of joints will happen....we didn't know that back in the 80's - so live and learn you young'ns!!!!
 
I have clients with rotator cuff issues ranging anywhere from beginning impingment problems to tears that have been surgically reattached (I'm an ACE-certified personal trainer). I don't have them perform overhead presses, but substitute with lateral raises, rear delt raises, etc. I've scaled way back on overhead presses for myself, as well. I'd rather hit my delts with separate exercises, even if it takes longer. And I definintely make sure to do exercises for my rc muscles specifically (external/internal rotations, etc.). I'm trying to be soooo very careful with my shoulders. I'm 46 and I want them to last. :)

I totally agree about being careful with anterior delt islolation. I'm sure you've felt those muscles working hard in chest presses, etc. They assist in many exercises and it's easy to get out of balance. Our rear delts need more attention, in my opinion.

A quick summary:
There are four rotator cuff muscles -- one on top, two in back, one in front. It's important to strengthen them and keep or increase their flexibility/range of motion through specific, consistent, targeted exercises. The rotator cuff itself is actually the group of four tendons extending from the rc muscles that fuse to form a cuff around the top of the humerus -- it attaches the rc muscles to the humerus.

A good read: "Treat Your Own Rotator Cuff," by Jim Johnson, PT.

I hope this helps a bit.

Best wishes,
Marla
:)
 
RE: Strengthen shoulders without injuring the rotator c...

>There is so much great advice here, I wonder if I can ask you
>all about a different video instructor? If it's not allowed on
>this forum I will understand.

This is probably not the place to do it, since it's the "Ask Cathe" forum. I suggest you ask over in "Open Discussion" (which has no restrictions).


(We have been discussing it at VF: http://forum.videofitness.com/showthread.php?p=1139183#post1139183

In a nutshell, I think you hit it right on the mark)
 
RE: Strengthen shoulders without injuring the rotator c...

In regards to push-ups, I think it was in last month's Oxygen that I read that if you have shoulder issues you should avoid push-ups altogether. I'm still at around 174 lbs. and I still do them on my knees and with the Perfect Push-Up devices. Maybe when I'm no longer so heavy... but, until then, I have to be careful pressing my body weight into my shoulders.

I, too, am really glad for the advice and information here. I've had strains (and physical therapy, so the "Y's" and "T's" are something with which I'm well familiar) but have managed to not get seriously injured. I think the info here, particularly regarding cutting back on anterior-delt isolation moves if you're already working your anteriors with standard chest work (unless I'm misunderstanding), will go a long way towards helping me to prevent further problems.

And I'm checking out that book, too. Thanks.
 
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