Just thought I'd try to blow everyone's mind early this morning
- Thread starter morningstar
- Start date
syzygy314
Cathlete
Oh! Thanks Jonezie!
I feel like I just came out of chemistry class! LOL! Makes me want to dig my old anatomy & physiology and exercise physiology books out the boxes in the basement for a refresher!
I feel like I just came out of chemistry class! LOL! Makes me want to dig my old anatomy & physiology and exercise physiology books out the boxes in the basement for a refresher!
Tricia...love that you used "metaphysical" (one of my favorite words), love the article, and LOVE that you've lost 28.4 pounds! I keep looking at your weight loss ticker...it gives me something to aspire to. Thanks for the post!
Jonezie
morningstar
Cathlete
Morningstar...I tried to PM you but no luck.
Hey, I emailed you according to the email address on your blog.
Jonezie
Cathlete
DEEDEE2
Cathlete
Oh I believe there is much more to it than just calories in and calories out. As someone who hit a plateau at 262lbs for two freakin' months...eating 1600-1800 calories a day and working out and staying active...I believe there is a lot more to it. I also don't buy that starvation mode stuff either...I've never seen anybody starve themselves fat. I believe there is some validity in both theories, but I don't think we know the whole story.
i don't know if my response is going to have anything to do with prooving the whole weight loss/3500 cal thing but i've been listening to inside out weight loss (thanks again for the recommendation) and i loved the part about eating to match your metabolism. i think a lot of times we eat for other reasons besides hunger such as boredom, emotions, because this expert said to eat this often , by the clock etc). In the podcasts its so true when she says that the true feeling of hunger is fear driven nowadays. People fear feeling hunger thinking its going to lead to a binge or shut down there metabolism. Naturally thin people "match there food intake with there hunger" meaning eat when hungry stop when satisfied. For the past few days i've been trying this and its very freeing. Its nice to know i'm not going to curl up in a ball and die if i happen to miss a meal or go longer without food and now i'm welcoming hunger as i find i enjoy my food so much more when i'm hungry. I think that we as a society believe in too many food rules and restrictions and ignore what we were innately born with to regulate our hunger/fullness cues.
morningstar
Cathlete
I just found this and started reading it and it looks like it could be helpful here! I've had my mind-blowing metaphysical debate already with my DH last night and have nothing left for this more scientific one! I'm mentally spent! LOL!
I'm going to keep reading this article. If I have to recant it's usefulness later, I will with a complete apology for not reading the whole thing first!
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/62/5/1034S.pdf
This was a really interesting study. I thought someone else had posted a number of helpful articles on this thread as well, but they seem to have been deleted.
Gayle, unfortunately we don't have access to Netflix in Canada. Bummer, eh?
janiejoey
Cathlete
This is very interesting to me. I went to Pubmed, where there are proof of scientific studies who write papers on all kinds of things. I looked up calories restrictions/deficits and couldn't find any proof about calories in and calories out that would help make us lose weight. Like you said, there are too many variables for that to happen. Each person is unique:
The article above is very interesting and with my findings too, really makes you think about this question. "What if 3500 calories doesn't actually translate to 1 pound of weight in our actual bodies?"
This is what I came up with:
Prescrire Int. 2007 Aug;16(90):162-7.
Obesity: weight loss without drugs: a balanced diet avoiding high-calorie foods, plus exercise.
[No authors listed]
(1) Weight loss in obese patients can reduce some of the complications of obesity. (2) To determine which interventions have the greatest and most durable impact on weight, without a risk of serious adverse effects, we conducted a systematic review of the available evidence, based on standardised Prescrire methodology. (3) Clinical trials of treatments for obesity have not taken into account the social, environmental or psychological factors that contribute to obesity, nor the individual's history of obesity and previous treatments, nor the possible impact of dieting on quality of life. These flaws limit the conclusions drawn from these trials. (4) A meta-analysis of 32 randomised controlled trials involving obese patients showed that moderate and well-balanced calorie restriction is more effective than any other diet, resulting in an average weight loss of about 5 kg after one year. (5) A meta-analysis of 35 randomised controlled trials involving obese patients showed that a combination of dieting and increased exercise is more effective than either measure alone. Increasing physical activity also helps to maintain weight loss. (6) A meta-analysis of 19 randomised controlled trials showed that the addition of active support, such as behavioural therapy, makes dietary weight loss measures more effective in obese patients. Behavioural therapy with spousal participation seems to be most effective, with half of trial participants losing about 7 kg after one year. (7) Interventions that do not involve assistance from healthcare professionals are hardly any more effective than dieting alone. (8) In practice, a variety of non drug measures can help obese patients to lose weight. However, they only lead to modest enduring weight loss, and their limited impact on prevention of complications means they should not be pushed too insistently on patients. When patients want assistance with weight loss, their individual body weight history should be carefully analysed before embarking on a weight loss programme.
PMID: 17724845 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
There are other places to look, and I will keep searching, but so far this does make since.
Janie
The article above is very interesting and with my findings too, really makes you think about this question. "What if 3500 calories doesn't actually translate to 1 pound of weight in our actual bodies?"
This is what I came up with:
Prescrire Int. 2007 Aug;16(90):162-7.
Obesity: weight loss without drugs: a balanced diet avoiding high-calorie foods, plus exercise.
[No authors listed]
(1) Weight loss in obese patients can reduce some of the complications of obesity. (2) To determine which interventions have the greatest and most durable impact on weight, without a risk of serious adverse effects, we conducted a systematic review of the available evidence, based on standardised Prescrire methodology. (3) Clinical trials of treatments for obesity have not taken into account the social, environmental or psychological factors that contribute to obesity, nor the individual's history of obesity and previous treatments, nor the possible impact of dieting on quality of life. These flaws limit the conclusions drawn from these trials. (4) A meta-analysis of 32 randomised controlled trials involving obese patients showed that moderate and well-balanced calorie restriction is more effective than any other diet, resulting in an average weight loss of about 5 kg after one year. (5) A meta-analysis of 35 randomised controlled trials involving obese patients showed that a combination of dieting and increased exercise is more effective than either measure alone. Increasing physical activity also helps to maintain weight loss. (6) A meta-analysis of 19 randomised controlled trials showed that the addition of active support, such as behavioural therapy, makes dietary weight loss measures more effective in obese patients. Behavioural therapy with spousal participation seems to be most effective, with half of trial participants losing about 7 kg after one year. (7) Interventions that do not involve assistance from healthcare professionals are hardly any more effective than dieting alone. (8) In practice, a variety of non drug measures can help obese patients to lose weight. However, they only lead to modest enduring weight loss, and their limited impact on prevention of complications means they should not be pushed too insistently on patients. When patients want assistance with weight loss, their individual body weight history should be carefully analysed before embarking on a weight loss programme.
PMID: 17724845 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
There are other places to look, and I will keep searching, but so far this does make since.
Janie
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ellesan
Cathlete
Good food for thought!
I think that the 3500 calorie rule was determined in a lab in test tubes, and you're so right, we are WAY more complex than that!! There's no way that number can be correct for everyone.
As someone who has maintained a 100 pound weight loss, I have to say that it was confusing at times (like many people) when you are doing the "math" of calories in v. calories out correctly and not losing. There are other times when you aren't doing everything "right" and lose.
Genetics, metabolism, stress, sleep, emotions, depression, HORMONES, water retention, nutrition, macronutrient breakdown, exercise, etc. all play a huge part in how each person gains/loses weight. AND it's different for everyone. That's why there's no one-size-fits-all program IMO.
However, I KNOW that MY body responds to watching portions, eating healthy fruits and veggies, lean protein, lowfat dairy and complex carbs. Drinking water is huge for me and I drink at least 3-4 liters of water a day. Because of my crazy work/sleep schedule I don't eat a traditional breakfast. After waking up, I wait until I feel true hunger (usually 3 hours or so) and then I eat every 3 hours or so after that. I don't exercise a ton at all for weight loss, I like the way it makes me feel--strong and empowered.
What made me fat? Overeating high sugar, processed foods, simple carbs (cookies, cheap chocolate, brownies) and laying on the couch feeling sorry for myself. Genetics are not on my side, I have overweight parents, thyroid and hormone issues, but it's also not an excuse.
In the end it doesn't matter to me if it takes my body 2000 calories or 7000 calories to burn fat off my butt. When I feel good about myself, have a good attitude and put good fuel into my body, that = feeling great and changing my body.
I think that the 3500 calorie rule was determined in a lab in test tubes, and you're so right, we are WAY more complex than that!! There's no way that number can be correct for everyone.
As someone who has maintained a 100 pound weight loss, I have to say that it was confusing at times (like many people) when you are doing the "math" of calories in v. calories out correctly and not losing. There are other times when you aren't doing everything "right" and lose.
Genetics, metabolism, stress, sleep, emotions, depression, HORMONES, water retention, nutrition, macronutrient breakdown, exercise, etc. all play a huge part in how each person gains/loses weight. AND it's different for everyone. That's why there's no one-size-fits-all program IMO.
However, I KNOW that MY body responds to watching portions, eating healthy fruits and veggies, lean protein, lowfat dairy and complex carbs. Drinking water is huge for me and I drink at least 3-4 liters of water a day. Because of my crazy work/sleep schedule I don't eat a traditional breakfast. After waking up, I wait until I feel true hunger (usually 3 hours or so) and then I eat every 3 hours or so after that. I don't exercise a ton at all for weight loss, I like the way it makes me feel--strong and empowered.
What made me fat? Overeating high sugar, processed foods, simple carbs (cookies, cheap chocolate, brownies) and laying on the couch feeling sorry for myself. Genetics are not on my side, I have overweight parents, thyroid and hormone issues, but it's also not an excuse.
In the end it doesn't matter to me if it takes my body 2000 calories or 7000 calories to burn fat off my butt. When I feel good about myself, have a good attitude and put good fuel into my body, that = feeling great and changing my body.
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I totally agree with this. Each person is different. People have different metabolisms. People react to foods differently. People are not clones and it is THAT fact that makes weight loss less than a fine science.
But just because weight loss is an individual thing, that does not mean that the concept of calories is erroneous. I think there is plenty of 'proof' that calorie surplus=weight gain and calorie deficit=weight loss in MOST people. I know, as somebody said earlier in the thread, when I eat more, I gain. When I eat less, I lose.
I've been monitoring my calories in vs. calories out for about a year now. I lost 45 pounds. When I first started my diet, I didn't change my workout schedule or the types of foods I was eating. I simply cut back. And I lost. To me, that is 'proof' that my weight loss was a result of calorie deficit. Later on, I started changing the types of foods that I ate, and I actually lost weight much easier. So, to me, that proves that the types of food being eaten--in addition to the number of calories eaten--matters. When I increased the amount of that type of food, I stopped losing weight which indicates to me that calories still matter regardless of how 'clean' the food is that is being eaten.
I think it is up to everybody to find the right weight loss system that works for them. For some, it is going to be 6 meals a day, for others 3. For some, it will involve intense exercise. For others, not so much. For some, it can be done on processed foods. For others, it can't. But, again, just because that aspect of weight loss is very individual does not mean, in my opinion, that the concept of calories and pounds as they relate to weight loss is not worth considering.
Stebby
Cathlete
This thread got me thinking. I decided to look at it from a mathematical perspective and it doesn't seem to add up.
1 gram of fat has 9 calories
1 lb of fat translates to 454 grams of fat
9 calories per gram of fat X 454 grams of fat = 4086 calories (not 3500 calories)
Therefore, if you want to lose a pound of fat, shouldn't you have to burn 4086 calories?
Stebby
1 gram of fat has 9 calories
1 lb of fat translates to 454 grams of fat
9 calories per gram of fat X 454 grams of fat = 4086 calories (not 3500 calories)
Therefore, if you want to lose a pound of fat, shouldn't you have to burn 4086 calories?
Stebby
carres1973
Cathlete
morningstar - very good questions posed. I am actually amazed more hasn't been debunked about this belief...especially since it seems there is something new every other week that debunks long held fitness and lifestyle beliefs!
Carrie
Carrie
caseysmomgo
Cathlete
This got me thinking....
1 gram of carbs & protein are apparently only 4 calories? vs 1 gram of fat is 9 calories...So when you're burning calories you're burning both carbs/protein and fat, so maybe the 3500 calories is kind of an average?
I don't know what I'm talking about so I'm outta here! LOL
carres1973
Cathlete
Janie - Thank you for that article. It was very informative...but also discouraging! I don't know too many people (obese or not) who would call losing 5-7 Kg over a year encouraging. That isn't much weight at all! As someone who is trying all kinds of different ways to lose about 50 pounds, I know I wouldn't be happy with a 10-15 pount weight loss after a year.
What is the right answer? Who knows! As those above have said, I think it is too individualized for each person. I don't think there is a magic cure and everyone needs to find their own way...and then change it when that way doesn't work. It is exhausting just thinking about it. I should probably give up now, sit on the couch and go back to eating donuts
!Carrie
RapidBreath
Cathlete
My grandmother was put on a diet of 700 calories a day and put on weight. There are people who starve and still put on weight. It was a travesty of bad medicine, a cluster of stupidity, it cost her life. Bad doctors, put out your hand, I have a ruler to beat you with.
I've been tracking my calories for months now. I have been very honest and accurate. Yes, I gain weight on too many calories, but I also gain on too few. AND, for me, it does matter what and when I eat--not just the number of calories. I gain weight on refined foods even if the calories are the same (or even less).
Sooooo, I only "believe" what works for me. I'm eating more calories and losing weight. I like where I'm at, and I feel good, too.
Sooooo, I only "believe" what works for me. I'm eating more calories and losing weight. I like where I'm at, and I feel good, too.
Clarissa
Cathlete
Hi. I am not sure if anyone mentioned the hypothyroid thing as I do not have time to scroll thru all the postings. HOWEVER....since Sept of this past year when I was diagnosed with autoimmune hypothyroid, I have gained about 12+ lbs of...fat? ...water? ...something anyway. As many of you know, I am a personal trainer who works out not only hard-core 6 days per week, but during and with many of my clients each day in addition to my own workouts. My diet plan is very close to the eat clean diet. I am very diligent about it and have maintained a certain weight for years until this Sept. I am devastated that I can't lose weight and that my weight is CLIMBING by the month. It isn't fair.
So I am told by my endo that NO MATTER WHAT I DO, I will NOT be able to lose or maintain weight until I get into a certain range for my thyroid, using meds. Could take a year, maybe longer.
Hence, I am no longer a fan of the calories in/out anymore. I don't know WHAT to believe anymore. But yes, I still preach it to clients and hope for their sake that they don't have to endure this hypo hell that I do.
So I am told by my endo that NO MATTER WHAT I DO, I will NOT be able to lose or maintain weight until I get into a certain range for my thyroid, using meds. Could take a year, maybe longer.
Hence, I am no longer a fan of the calories in/out anymore. I don't know WHAT to believe anymore. But yes, I still preach it to clients and hope for their sake that they don't have to endure this hypo hell that I do.
Jonezie
Cathlete
Clarissa...is that you in the photo (I'm sure)? Wow! If I had abs like that I would have NO problems. What is your secret?!?
Jonezie
PS...I think this is the point of the thread...that no one can predict how your body is going to react to a set of variables. While I certainly respect the value of your physician's work, I hope you don't feel imprisoned by the 1 year idea.
JoneziePS...I think this is the point of the thread...that no one can predict how your body is going to react to a set of variables. While I certainly respect the value of your physician's work, I hope you don't feel imprisoned by the 1 year idea.
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Clarissa
Cathlete
Aw thanks. Yes, that is me in the video after my 2nd baby - since baby 3, I was diagnosed w/ the Hashimotos Disease though...I look the same, but pudgier. At least I think so and the scale says so.... One thing I know is - NEVER give up. This will not serve as an excuse for me to sit around and let it take control of my life! I will continue to eat healthy and workout regardless of the results I see (or don't see).