Is your dog a killer, too?

[fit44]

A dog which is not under control and its owner may someday pay a price.

This is why I posted the photos of the dog with over 1300 porcupine quills in the face. I know it is disturbing to look at but sometimes it makes more sense to people from a financial point of view (huge vet bill). I promise you will pay if your dog is off leash and injures another pet. You'll pay your vet bill and the victim's vet bill. If your dog is off leash- it is YOUR fault.

Dogs are OK with you taking control and acting as pack leader. It's not being mean or taking the fun out of their life. They really do take comfort in knowing they do not have to be in control. If you take control, they will put their trust in you.

 

[joejack]

I don't understand why folks assume that people who have an animal aggressive dog and struggle with how to handle it, don't care about other animals or small children. It's just plain wrong to make that leap. I am however amazed at the number of dog owners who let toddlers near their dogs because they think their dogs would "never hurt" a child.

Originally Posted by PhyllisG
Why is it a terrible thing to control? Leash your dog! Just seeing that happen once would be so traumatic for me that I would be worried to let my dogs loose. I would not want to witness it again.

I leash my dogs all the time. My dogs killed a cat in MY yard last week. It's terribly hard for me to have leash my dogs 24/7 in MY yard because a cat owner didn't control their cat. Up until last week I was able to kick the door open and let them have some exercise without worrying about it. Well that's all changed now...it's not the end of the world, but it certainly has changed the way I have to deal with my dogs.

I figured I was doing my part by making sure I kept my dogs in my yard.

I cared enough to take the cat and have it humanely euthanized... it was sad and emotional and it wasn't the way I had hoped to spend my Saturday morning.

I'm sympathetic to the OP because I got the sense that she feels bad about it and wanted to know if anyone else had a similar problem. Well, I have a similar problem and wanted to let her know that. It is a huge bummer to have to deal with it, especially if the dogs were used to being let off the leash at some point in their life.

NO dog is 100% reliable with children or other animals. A dog owner could have done all the training correctly and still have something unforseen happen. Some dogs really are harder to deal with than other dogs and sometimes you find out about the problems the hard way.

So to everyone who thinks they have it all figured out, there is no such thing as a perfect dog or a perfect dog owner.

Just sharing another perspective.

 

[horseshowmom]

I don't understand why folks assume that people who have an animal aggressive dog and struggle with how to handle it, don't care about other animals or small children. It's just plain wrong to make that leap.

I am completely puzzled by this statement. I haven't read ANy responses by ANYONE claiming to be perfect

Well that's all changed now...it's not the end of the world, but it certainly has changed the way I have to deal with my dogs.

I figured I was doing my part by making sure I kept my dogs in my yard.

That is horribly tragic and as I am missing a cat will guarantee me many sleepless nights or nightmares. However, even you clearly state *you were keeping your dogs in your yard*



Again, I must be reading a different thread because NOWHERE do I read even a hint of ANYONE claiming to have it all figured out.

 

[PhyllisG]

I wasn't posting about your own backyard. I was posting about taking your dogs out for a walk or a hike where you will meet other people, dogs and animals. Sure accidents happen but how often do they have to happen before you think whoa something is going on here that I am not able to control. I need to resolve this problem. I thought the OP was asking for help and for opinions. I thought she got a lot of good suggestions and responses to her dilemma. Her situation seemed dangerous to her dog also since it involved wildlife and possible legal ramifications. As has been posted a dog can be shot by the authorities if caught killing wildlife or at least that is true where I live. Also I believe the OP was a first time dog owner so I thought people with more experience with dogs offered some good ideas.

 

[meowracer]

I don't understand why folks assume that people who have an animal aggressive dog and struggle with how to handle it, don't care about other animals or small children. It's just plain wrong to make that leap.

I don't think that people make that assumption at all - well, in general - I cannot speak for the entire world population. On the contrary, if your dog is animal aggressive, you should be THAT MUCH MORE on top of the situation rather than just saying "well, it is what it is." Every animal owner has a responsibility to their animal(s) to teach them right from wrong, to train them as necessary and to protect other animals (and people if that is the situation with the dog - not this dog in particular) if that is the case. This on top of, of course, shelter, food, water, and lots of love There will be dogs who, for whatever reason, are animal aggressive. This does not mean that the owner allows it to continue when something can be done about it (in this case, a leash, maybe a harness and muzzle, and some training for both owner and dog). I had a shelter dog who rescued a tiny baby kitten in our yard, carried him in her mouth up to safety and practically raised the kitten. They were best buds. I did nothing to train the dog - she was just this way, just as some dogs can be the complete opposite and in that case, it does not mean that the owner has no regard for other animals/children. It just means that the owner has some work to do with the dog and has to be extra cautious when in an environment that will provoke the dog.

DIRT DIVA - you are so sweet! Thank you I had missed this post earlier.

 

[joejack]

I don't understand why folks assume that people who have an animal aggressive dog and struggle with how to handle it, don't care about other animals or small children. It's just plain wrong to make that leap.

I am completely puzzled by this statement. I haven't read ANy responses by ANYONE claiming to be perfect

Well that's all changed now...it's not the end of the world, but it certainly has changed the way I have to deal with my dogs.

I figured I was doing my part by making sure I kept my dogs in my yard.

That is horribly tragic and as I am missing a cat will guarantee me many sleepless nights or nightmares. However, even you clearly state *you were keeping your dogs in your yard*



Again, I must be reading a different thread because NOWHERE do I read even a hint of ANYONE claiming to have it all figured out.

I'm probably being overly sensitive. I'll blame it on PMS

 

[hiitdogs]

I don't understand why folks assume that people who have an animal aggressive dog and struggle with how to handle it, don't care about other animals or small children. It's just plain wrong to make that leap. I am however amazed at the number of dog owners who let toddlers near their dogs because they think their dogs would "never hurt" a child.

Originally Posted by PhyllisG
Why is it a terrible thing to control? Leash your dog! Just seeing that happen once would be so traumatic for me that I would be worried to let my dogs loose. I would not want to witness it again.

I leash my dogs all the time. My dogs killed a cat in MY yard last week. It's terribly hard for me to have leash my dogs 24/7 in MY yard because a cat owner didn't control their cat. Up until last week I was able to kick the door open and let them have some exercise without worrying about it. Well that's all changed now...it's not the end of the world, but it certainly has changed the way I have to deal with my dogs.

I figured I was doing my part by making sure I kept my dogs in my yard.

I cared enough to take the cat and have it humanely euthanized... it was sad and emotional and it wasn't the way I had hoped to spend my Saturday morning.

I'm sympathetic to the OP because I got the sense that she feels bad about it and wanted to know if anyone else had a similar problem. Well, I have a similar problem and wanted to let her know that. It is a huge bummer to have to deal with it, especially if the dogs were used to being let off the leash at some point in their life.

NO dog is 100% reliable with children or other animals. A dog owner could have done all the training correctly and still have something unforseen happen. Some dogs really are harder to deal with than other dogs and sometimes you find out about the problems the hard way.

So to everyone who thinks they have it all figured out, there is no such thing as a perfect dog or a perfect dog owner.

Just sharing another perspective.

No one ever said there is a perfect dog or a perfect owner, we all try our best and sometimes we fail. What I struggle with is the lack of responsibility that people take when their dog does something he/she is not supposed to do and blame it on someone else. Like in the post where the cat was killed in the yard, the blame was immediately shifted to the irresponsible cat owner. Should the cat be roaming outside? No, of course not! But should dogs attack other animals, even in their yard? Absolutely not!!

I have a dog who at 4 months old was attacked viciously at the dog park and shaken like a ragdoll. I maced the dog with the effect that the dog's owner yelled at me why I hurt his dog and of course, it was not his dog's fault because my 4-month old dog had aggrevated his dog by barking and wrestling with my other dog Yeah, right!

My dog now freaks out every time he sees another dog, his fear turned into aggression. I have been working with him every single day for 19 months now and baby step by baby step we went from him going ballistic seeing a dog in a 3 mile radius to down to passing a dog 2 yards away. I had to muzzle him at the dog park. He is now good 99 % of the time and I still will not let him off leash, or take the muzzle off at the dog park.

If I knew that my dog would attack and kill other dogs or other animals, I would never let them out in my own yard unsupervised and I would work on obedience and leave it command every single day until they get it.

No one says being a dog owner is easy, it's hard work and if people don't have the time or energy to devote several hours a day to their dog(s) to exercise and train their high-energy dogs, a lot of times problems develop. I just wish people would realize that the leap from killing another animal to attacking a child, skate boarder or a jogger is not very far, if you don't think one step ahead of your dog. A dog with high prey-drive does not make the distinction between an animal and a human when something triggers them to go "into the zone".

 

[fit44]

If I knew that my dog would attack and kill other dogs or other animals, I would never let them out in my own yard unsupervised and I would work on obedience and leave it command every single day until they get it.

Absolutely right on!
I agree with everything you said Carola, but this can't be stressed enough. A fenced yard is a helpful tool, but it doesn't mean we should not supervise our pets while they are in the yard.
You wouldn't allow a two year old child (who doesn't know any better) in the backyard unsupervised. It's the same thing in my eyes.

 

[NY25]

Just one other thing to consider - it your off-leash "killer' (your words) dog killed my animal, and you knew of your dog's behavior patterns (which you do based on the laundry list of slaughter you've enabled), I'd sue you from here to next year. And I know I'm not the only one. Not only are you encouraging bad behavior in your dog, but he/she goes after someone's pet or child, you open yourself up for legal action in a BIG way. Get a harness, get a leash, get some obedience training and use them.

 

[joejack]

Just one other thing to consider - it your off-leash "killer' (your words) dog killed my animal, and you knew of your dog's behavior patterns (which you do based on the laundry list of slaughter you've enabled), I'd sue you from here to next year. And I know I'm not the only one. Not only are you encouraging bad behavior in your dog, but he/she goes after someone's pet or child, you open yourself up for legal action in a BIG way. Get a harness, get a leash, get some obedience training and use them.

This post is unneccesarily harsh. JMO.

 

[joejack]

Cynthia-I don't think the comparison of supervising dogs and children in the backyard makes sense. I'd never equate the two in any way.

For the sake of discussion, because I'm getting really tired of watching my dogs so closely:

Carola/Cynthia-My dogs are were both puppies of pregnant strays. They are 8 and 6 yrs old, well trained, (they do know "leave it" BTW), great around kids and people. They are walked 5-6 days a week for 4-5 miles and are spoiled with attention by our kids.

They have killed exactly one cat in all of these years. What if I don't have the time at this point in my life to supervise their every waking moment in our yard? Should I give them away? Should they be put down? They are well contained.....my husband doesn't think this incident should change the way we treat the dogs, the vet doesn't either.

The dogs are part of our life...not our whole life, so I'm leaning toward agreeing with the vet and my husband given the pain in the rear it's been keeping them inside so much more than they are used to.

 

[fit44]

Cynthia-I don't think the comparison of supervising dogs and children in the backyard makes sense. I'd never equate the two in any way.

Really? I think a dog is very similar to a young child except children will grow to be independent. Dogs are a full time commitment.

 

[hiitdogs]

Cynthia-I don't think the comparison of supervising dogs and children in the backyard makes sense. I'd never equate the two in any way.

Maybe you should when it comes to supervision! I think Cynthia's comment makes a lot of sense. Just because you don't like it doesn't make Cynthia's comment invalid.

For the sake of discussion, because I'm getting really tired of watching my dogs so closely:

You get tired of "watching the dogs so closely"? Well, maybe this sounds harsh but if you can't watch your dogs to make sure that they don't cause any harm to anyone, other animals or humans, maybe than you shouldn't have gotten dogs but a goldfish instead! You took on the responsibility of owning a dog, then do what is necessary to keep other animals and humans around out of harms way.

Carola/Cynthia-My dogs are were both puppies of pregnant strays. They are 8 and 6 yrs old, well trained, (they do know "leave it" BTW), great around kids and people. They are walked 5-6 days a week for 4-5 miles and are spoiled with attention by our kids.

As someone who trains dogs I can tell you that spoiling dogs with attention is what causes most of the problems. Dogs need leadership, they need discipline, rules, boundaries and limitations and affection and praise if they behave, not the other way around.

They have killed exactly one cat in all of these years. What if I don't have the time at this point in my life to supervise their every waking moment in our yard? Should I give them away? Should they be put down? They are well contained.....my husband doesn't think this incident should change the way we treat the dogs, the vet doesn't either.

The dogs are part of our life...not our whole life, so I'm leaning toward agreeing with the vet and my husband given the pain in the rear it's been keeping them inside so much more than they are used to.

My dogs are part of my life, they are not my whole life but if I knew that they killed another creature I would keep them confined when I am not able to supervise. That's what kennels are for. If you don't want to confine them, at least put a muzzle on.

They "only" killed one cat in all that time? That you know of!

By the way, vets are not dog trainers or dog behaviorists. My vet's dog was the worst behaved dog I have ever met because she thought it would be enough to just love the dog. And every day they would go for a "walk", ummh the dog walking the owner, not exactly helpful.

I wonder what kind of pain in the rear it was for the cat being killed. But aside from that, if they are so well-trained and well-exercised, why is it a pain in the rear to keep them inside?

 

[joejack]

Maybe you should when it comes to supervision! I think Cynthia's comment makes a lot of sense. Just because you don't like it doesn't make Cynthia's comment invalid.



You get tired of "watching the dogs so closely"? Well, maybe this sounds harsh but if you can't watch your dogs to make sure that they don't cause any harm to anyone, other animals or humans, maybe than you shouldn't have gotten dogs but a goldfish instead! You took on the responsibility of owning a dog, then do what is necessary to keep other animals and humans around out of harms way.



As someone who trains dogs I can tell you that spoiling dogs with attention is what causes most of the problems. Dogs need leadership, they need discipline, rules, boundaries and limitations and affection and praise if they behave, not the other way around.



My dogs are part of my life, they are not my whole life but if I knew that they killed another creature I would keep them confined when I am not able to supervise. That's what kennels are for. If you don't want to confine them, at least put a muzzle on.

They "only" killed one cat in all that time? That you know of!

By the way, vets are not dog trainers or dog behaviorists. My vet's dog was the worst behaved dog I have ever met because she thought it would be enough to just love the dog. And every day they would go for a "walk", ummh the dog walking the owner, not exactly helpful.

I wonder what kind of pain in the rear it was for the cat being killed. But aside from that, if they are so well-trained and well-exercised, why is it a pain in the rear to keep them inside?

Why assume my dogs are overly spoiled (I was trying to communicate that they are well loved), or that they are difficult to have inside? They are really nice family dogs and very calm inside and outdoors. They just love being outside. It seems like you'll twist my posts to make me sound like a bad dog owner no matter what I say.

If I hadn't adopted them, they would both be dead. Is that better than the life I've attempted to describe to you? Should only dog behaviorists attempt to adopt dogs? I never had dogs before these two, I've done my best to learn the best way to care for them. I'm open to looking at what I'm doing wrong and changing it.

You are very passionate about this and from what you say an expert in the field...but with your your passion comes a lack of grace that makes it tough to have a conversation or learn anything from you. Bummer.

 

[hiitdogs]

Why assume my dogs are overly spoiled (I was trying to communicate that they are well loved), or that they are difficult to have inside? They are really nice family dogs and very calm inside and outdoors. They just love being outside. It seems like you'll twist my posts to make me sound like a bad dog owner no matter what I say.

If I hadn't adopted them, they would both be dead. Is that better than the life I've attempted to describe to you? Should only dog behaviorists attempt to adopt dogs? I never had dogs before these two, I've done my best to learn the best way to care for them. I'm open to looking at what I'm doing wrong and changing it.

You are very passionate about this and from what you say an expert in the field...but with your your passion comes a lack of grace that makes it tough to have a conversation or learn anything from you. Bummer.

I don't think I have twisted anything you said. You said your dogs are spoiled with attention and I said it is a common problem with dog owners. Most people don't realize that dogs need a lot of training, leadership and discipline and that love without proper discipline will undoubtedly lead to problems in many dogs. You were the one who said that it is a pain in the rear to keep them inside. I just asked why it would be a problem if they are so well-trained and exercised? What did I twist?

I never said only dog behaviorists should adopt dogs, what I am saying is that people who adopt dogs need to realize that they have a potentially dangerous weapon on their hands and that the cuddly family dog can turn in a split second but people refuse to believe what their dogs are capable of and keep making excuses. The killed cat was a warning that I'd take seriously if I was you.

What really rubbed me the wrong way with your posts about your dogs is what I perceived as a lack of taking responsibility, blaming others and saying well I don't have the time and I am tired of supervising them. If you think that is a lack of grace, well, as far as I am concerned maybe it's just an inconvenient truth.

I have seen a lot of problems with dogs that were preventable and I am saddened to see how many good dogs turn bad because their owners refuse to get educated about their dogs or seek professional help.

My neighbors' dog used to kill birds and they didn't want to listen, the dog ended up biting my then 7-year-old son in the face. But of course, it was not the dog's fault

 

[joejack]

. If you think that is a lack of grace, well, as far as I am concerned maybe it's just an inconvenient truth.


My neighbors' dog used to kill birds and they didn't want to listen, the dog ended up biting my then 7-year-old son in the face. But of course, it was not the dog's fault

The following is an example of a post that lacks grace, or maybe it's just an inconvenient truth.....

If you knew the neighbor's dog was killing birds and thought it could progress to biting a child, why would you let your 7 yr old anywhere near it? Maybe it's partially your fault for not supervising your child when you knew there was a potentially dangerous dog close by. Shouldn't a child be supervised at least as closely as one would supervise a dog?

 

[PhyllisG]

Years ago talking to a breeder/trainer she mentioned the similarities between a dog and a 2 year old. Her question was--"Would you leave a 2 year old unsupervised? That is how you have to look at your dog". That comment really stuck in my head. It made me look at crate training, being alone outside, being off leash in a different way. I agree with Cynthia's comment about 2 year olds and it is good to keep that in mind when deciding what you can allow your dog to do.

 

[Lynn M.]

While this thread, is already kind of controversial, I can't help but add one more stick to the fire, that I've not seen mentioned yet in the other threads...

Additionally, I'd be concerned that if my dog was attacking wild animals that they may get bitten themselves and get rabies or some other horrible disease. Leashing the dog not only protects the prey, but your dog too. While most of us, have our pets vaccinated for rabies, there is so many other diseases that wild animals have that could be a threat to our pets.

Lynn M.

 

[fit44]

JoeJack,
Closing your eyes to what it going on in your backyard is irresponsible. Have you even considered the dog may get out of the yard? Dogs escape fenced yards all the time.

If you can't handle the situation, you need to seek professional help.
Nine times out of ten behavioral issues are directly related to how the human is handling the dog. That's a fact.
We can encourage a negative behavior without knowing we are doing it. A professional will give you a laundry list of safety precautions and exercises to follow. It is imperative when you are dealing with aggression.

 

[hiitdogs]

The following is an example of a post that lacks grace, or maybe it's just an inconvenient truth.....

If you knew the neighbor's dog was killing birds and thought it could progress to biting a child, why would you let your 7 yr old anywhere near it? Maybe it's partially your fault for not supervising your child when you knew there was a potentially dangerous dog close by. Shouldn't a child be supervised at least as closely as one would supervise a dog?

The dog was running outside without a leash. Let me get this straight, the dog owner has a dangerous weapon on their hands, lets her run loose, bites my kid and it is my fault because I am not supervising my child enough.

This is exactly what is wrong with people like you and my neighbor. You guys don't control your dogs, let them run loose, refuse to get professional help and when something happens it's the other people's fault for not supervising their cat or their child whereas it is YOUR responsibility to make sure that your dog doesn't bite!

It is irresponsible dog owners like you who spoil it for the rest of us with more and more restrictions, laws and control.

Some people really shouldn't have dogs