If you use botox: something to think about (FYI)
- Thread starter kathryn
- Start date
LauraMax
Cathlete
I did do my own research Beavs, which is why I posted the link to the article, which you clearly chose not to read b/c apparently YOU know everything on the topic.
You know, I was thinking about this thread last night & I realized why I reacted the way I did to it. Call it getting personal if you like. I feel ugly & insecure without botox. Botox makes me feel pretty & self confident. Yes, I do resent feeling guilty & defensive about something that is important to me. And I resent even more being judged for it, which is what many of you are doing.
I also feel that the original post was preachy & inappropriate. This forum is for support, encouragement, exercise & fun. It is not for furthering anyone's political or social agendas. I was afraid to post my thoughts on Michael Moore's latest movie b/c I didn't want to offend anyone, for crying out loud. It's a shame some of you don't have the same consideration.
I'll let this thread die now. In fact, perhaps it's time for me to take a break from this forum. I'm extremely offended by several of these posts & I don't think I want to have any interaction with people who are so judgemental & insulting to those who don't walk their line.
Thank you & happy holidays to you all.
You know, I was thinking about this thread last night & I realized why I reacted the way I did to it. Call it getting personal if you like. I feel ugly & insecure without botox. Botox makes me feel pretty & self confident. Yes, I do resent feeling guilty & defensive about something that is important to me. And I resent even more being judged for it, which is what many of you are doing.
I also feel that the original post was preachy & inappropriate. This forum is for support, encouragement, exercise & fun. It is not for furthering anyone's political or social agendas. I was afraid to post my thoughts on Michael Moore's latest movie b/c I didn't want to offend anyone, for crying out loud. It's a shame some of you don't have the same consideration.
I'll let this thread die now. In fact, perhaps it's time for me to take a break from this forum. I'm extremely offended by several of these posts & I don't think I want to have any interaction with people who are so judgemental & insulting to those who don't walk their line.
Thank you & happy holidays to you all.
Fit_mommy
Cathlete
Laura,
I am not going post here again after this as I am the one who suggested we let this thread die but I just want to say this first...
I would hate to see you go but I also can't say I blame you.
While I believe we all have a right to voice our opinnions, I also believe there is ALOT to be said for how we choose to go about voicing it. I always try my hardest NOT to offend others but it seems others don't neccessarily do the same. I have considered leaving these forums more then once for this reason and I finally decided, for the most part, to stay out of the controversial discussions around here. Avoidance is the best policy for me. I will read but as a rule I usually *try* not to post. Sometimes I just can't help myself though! }(
Anyway, do what you feel is best. I just hope to see you back here again some day soon!
Take care!
I am not going post here again after this as I am the one who suggested we let this thread die but I just want to say this first...
I would hate to see you go but I also can't say I blame you.
While I believe we all have a right to voice our opinnions, I also believe there is ALOT to be said for how we choose to go about voicing it. I always try my hardest NOT to offend others but it seems others don't neccessarily do the same. I have considered leaving these forums more then once for this reason and I finally decided, for the most part, to stay out of the controversial discussions around here. Avoidance is the best policy for me. I will read but as a rule I usually *try* not to post. Sometimes I just can't help myself though! }(
Anyway, do what you feel is best. I just hope to see you back here again some day soon!
Take care!
dorothyrd
Cathlete
>Very enlightening article. I was thinking about using botox
>for my excessive sweating.... but now I'll wait until Allergen
>develops alternative testing techniques that don't involve the
>LD50 test.
I am curious, how does it work to help this?
Botox can help migraines, which I have, but I just cannot see using it. But then you just have to look at my personality and the way I live my life. I spend about 2 minutes on my hair in the morning, and maybe a dab of make-up, unless I am going to somewhere very special. So to me, spending money on something like this....not interested, happy the way I am.
I know lots of people who spend a lot more time on their hair, make-up, who knows, maybe they are using Botox. Don't know, don't care, they seem happy, so all is good. Each to their own drummer. If I would get something "cosmetic" it would be Lasiks, so I could quit losing my glasses when I take them off!
>for my excessive sweating.... but now I'll wait until Allergen
>develops alternative testing techniques that don't involve the
>LD50 test.
I am curious, how does it work to help this?
Botox can help migraines, which I have, but I just cannot see using it. But then you just have to look at my personality and the way I live my life. I spend about 2 minutes on my hair in the morning, and maybe a dab of make-up, unless I am going to somewhere very special. So to me, spending money on something like this....not interested, happy the way I am.
I know lots of people who spend a lot more time on their hair, make-up, who knows, maybe they are using Botox. Don't know, don't care, they seem happy, so all is good. Each to their own drummer. If I would get something "cosmetic" it would be Lasiks, so I could quit losing my glasses when I take them off!
story1267
Cathlete
Mmm. I hesitate to wade in to a hot topic but I will.
Animal testing is one of those things that is very hard to accept but it has indeed saved countless lives - I'm sure my son is one of them after having endured two cardiac surgeries as an infant and countless medications since.
When it comes to strictly "cosmetic" issues then it's a matter of personal responsibility and preference. I'm not saying that botox is strictly cosmetic because it's used for many purposes. And there are many who use it for their looks but in ways that run far deeper than mere vanity. I would hesitate to judge anyone until I'd walked a couple of miles in their shoes.
For someone on the fence about whether to use it or not then the issue of animal testing might help them decide.
But, for most of us living in the world, going truly "cruelty-free" is a near impossibility. That would mean vegan in every possible aspect of life. It can be done but it takes an incredible amount of energy and dedication.
Probably our best bet is to encourage alternative testing, and be mindful consumers, and to be kind to each other regardless.
Animal testing is one of those things that is very hard to accept but it has indeed saved countless lives - I'm sure my son is one of them after having endured two cardiac surgeries as an infant and countless medications since.
When it comes to strictly "cosmetic" issues then it's a matter of personal responsibility and preference. I'm not saying that botox is strictly cosmetic because it's used for many purposes. And there are many who use it for their looks but in ways that run far deeper than mere vanity. I would hesitate to judge anyone until I'd walked a couple of miles in their shoes.
For someone on the fence about whether to use it or not then the issue of animal testing might help them decide.
But, for most of us living in the world, going truly "cruelty-free" is a near impossibility. That would mean vegan in every possible aspect of life. It can be done but it takes an incredible amount of energy and dedication.
Probably our best bet is to encourage alternative testing, and be mindful consumers, and to be kind to each other regardless.
kathryn
Cathlete
>For someone on the fence about whether to use it or not then
>the issue of animal testing might help them decide.
Thank you, this was the point of my post, not to get into a debate about animal testing for medical purposes. I was appalled when I found out about the testing for Botox, and thought others might like to be informed about it.
As for those who use Botox for cosmetic reasons: this was meant to give you information you might not know about. Not to be "preachy" (Laura, I take offense to your qualifying it as that...if I wanted to be 'preachy' about it, I certainly would have phrased my post a different way).
It's everyone's personal choice to continue to use it or not, though those who do use it are possibly in a more influential place than a non-botox user to put pressure on the manufacturer to develop testing alternatives. (A suggestion I didn't put in my original post, because I left if up to everyone reading it to do what their own conscience dictated).
>the issue of animal testing might help them decide.
Thank you, this was the point of my post, not to get into a debate about animal testing for medical purposes. I was appalled when I found out about the testing for Botox, and thought others might like to be informed about it.
As for those who use Botox for cosmetic reasons: this was meant to give you information you might not know about. Not to be "preachy" (Laura, I take offense to your qualifying it as that...if I wanted to be 'preachy' about it, I certainly would have phrased my post a different way).
It's everyone's personal choice to continue to use it or not, though those who do use it are possibly in a more influential place than a non-botox user to put pressure on the manufacturer to develop testing alternatives. (A suggestion I didn't put in my original post, because I left if up to everyone reading it to do what their own conscience dictated).
andtckrtoo
Cathlete
I never know when to keep my mouth shut, so here goes...
If you do any research, you'll realize that the issue at debate here is not actually botox, but the LD50 test, which is used to determine the toxicity of a chemical (not just Botox, but many chemicals). The LD50 is used to determine at what dose 50% of the animals tested die. It's a barbaric and highly unreliable test, but as it's cheaper than the alternatives available, many companies, including Allergen, the maker of Botox refuse to consider the alternatives. Science had proven time after time that toxicity that kills animals does not accurately transfer to humans. The 50, out of 100 animals that are killed during this testing (which is done for every batch of Botox created) do endure some horrific suffering before they die (the normal test period is 3-4 days - and any animal that is not dead is ethunanized at that point - but not before - no matter how badly they are suffering).
I understand that Botox is very helpful in many circumstances, but there are alternative testing methods available that are actually more reliable, however they are more costly. And if botox is being used strictly for cosmetic purposes, I personally feel that if one is an animal lover, one should avoid using botox until alternative methods are used. But that is a personal opinion. Others may think differently.
While I agree that going cruelty-free is impossible, I do feel that where cruelty can be eliminated it should be. It's too easy to say, "Oh well, that's the way things have always been done."
If you do any research, you'll realize that the issue at debate here is not actually botox, but the LD50 test, which is used to determine the toxicity of a chemical (not just Botox, but many chemicals). The LD50 is used to determine at what dose 50% of the animals tested die. It's a barbaric and highly unreliable test, but as it's cheaper than the alternatives available, many companies, including Allergen, the maker of Botox refuse to consider the alternatives. Science had proven time after time that toxicity that kills animals does not accurately transfer to humans. The 50, out of 100 animals that are killed during this testing (which is done for every batch of Botox created) do endure some horrific suffering before they die (the normal test period is 3-4 days - and any animal that is not dead is ethunanized at that point - but not before - no matter how badly they are suffering).
I understand that Botox is very helpful in many circumstances, but there are alternative testing methods available that are actually more reliable, however they are more costly. And if botox is being used strictly for cosmetic purposes, I personally feel that if one is an animal lover, one should avoid using botox until alternative methods are used. But that is a personal opinion. Others may think differently.
While I agree that going cruelty-free is impossible, I do feel that where cruelty can be eliminated it should be. It's too easy to say, "Oh well, that's the way things have always been done."
LauraMax
Cathlete
>As for those who use Botox for cosmetic reasons: this was
>meant to give you information you might not know about. Not to
>be "preachy" (Laura, I take offense to your qualifying it as
>that...if I wanted to be 'preachy' about it, I certainly would
>have phrased my post a different way).
Errr umm sorry, but you didn't have to phrase your post in a different way for it to come off as preachy as it already did. Too bad you took offense but sometimes the truth hurts. Suck it up & deal with it.
And when you do, maybe you'll stop spewing your constant psuedo-knowledge of all things earthly. Sometimes people who DO stuff actually know more than those who've only READ about it.
>meant to give you information you might not know about. Not to
>be "preachy" (Laura, I take offense to your qualifying it as
>that...if I wanted to be 'preachy' about it, I certainly would
>have phrased my post a different way).
Errr umm sorry, but you didn't have to phrase your post in a different way for it to come off as preachy as it already did. Too bad you took offense but sometimes the truth hurts. Suck it up & deal with it.
And when you do, maybe you'll stop spewing your constant psuedo-knowledge of all things earthly. Sometimes people who DO stuff actually know more than those who've only READ about it.
Amy Steppe
Cathlete
I refuse to put any form of botuylism (sic) into my body.
I plan to age as naturally as possible.
Thank you for the info, Kathryn.
I plan to age as naturally as possible.
Thank you for the info, Kathryn.
hiitdogs
Cathlete
Why is the focus is so much on using botox or not? I do understand that there are reasons why people want to/need to use it.
Whereas I don't think I personally would use botox for cosmetic reasons as there are well-documented negative side effects, there may be circumstances were it would be necessary.
I had no idea about the LD50 testing on animals and I am glad Kathryn posted a thread about this. Whatever we do with this information it is our own choice.
It sounds like there are other ways of testing botox and other drugs/cosmetics, etc, the manufacturer just doesn't want to do it because it would cut into their profits.
I guess that would be my focus. There were so many threads about writing to HomeDepot, the NFL, Nike and Aunt Tilly about our disgust with Michael Vick (rightfully so). It could be done with those manufacturers, if there was a public outcry, I am sure they would consider changing it.
Wishing all of you Happy Holidays!! Hope you get lots of presents
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_2_81.gif
Whereas I don't think I personally would use botox for cosmetic reasons as there are well-documented negative side effects, there may be circumstances were it would be necessary.
I had no idea about the LD50 testing on animals and I am glad Kathryn posted a thread about this. Whatever we do with this information it is our own choice.
It sounds like there are other ways of testing botox and other drugs/cosmetics, etc, the manufacturer just doesn't want to do it because it would cut into their profits.
I guess that would be my focus. There were so many threads about writing to HomeDepot, the NFL, Nike and Aunt Tilly about our disgust with Michael Vick (rightfully so). It could be done with those manufacturers, if there was a public outcry, I am sure they would consider changing it.
Wishing all of you Happy Holidays!! Hope you get lots of presents
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_2_81.gif
dogs2birds
Cathlete
Kathryn,
Thank you so much for the information. My sister was planning to get botox in the very near future and I have been toying with the idea. But after reading this, I can tell you that neither of us will do it now. We both do as much as we can to avoid using products that are tested on animals (including cleaning products), ESPECIALLY for vanity's sake. I really appreciate your post.
Suz
"Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened." - Anatole France
http://www.picturetrail.com/dogs2birds
Thank you so much for the information. My sister was planning to get botox in the very near future and I have been toying with the idea. But after reading this, I can tell you that neither of us will do it now. We both do as much as we can to avoid using products that are tested on animals (including cleaning products), ESPECIALLY for vanity's sake. I really appreciate your post.
Suz
"Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened." - Anatole France
http://www.picturetrail.com/dogs2birds