How much protein?

[hiitdogs]

Hey Carola,

I'm sorry I was so bitchy (I'm having a very bad weekend). I wasn't calling your opinion foolish, so much as the information itself. It wasn't new to me; I've heard it many times before and I think it just doesn't make sense. I'm not convinced that one study is definitive; I think so often we just hear of one or two studies with new information, and it is supposed to change everything about how we think. So many studies are not done to a high standard, but we rarely hear about it if the study can't be replicated with the same results.

For most of the past 23 years as a vegetarian I did not get enough protein of any kind. I did not combine my vegetable-sourced proteins carefully and in general was in very poor health. Once I started really focusing on making protein a priority in my diet, I noticed a huge difference in how I felt. However, I also made many other healthier choices at the same time, so it would be hard to single out the protein as the only cause of the increased well-being. For me, more protein feels way better than less, but I get my protein from all kinds of sources, including dairy, beans, soy, veggies, etc.

No apology necessary. I am sorry you had a bad weekend. I hope you are doing better now!

I have read several studies about the same subject, I just thought that one was the most credible, at least for me.

I think we all have our stories and events that effect our lives more profoundly than any study ever could and maybe we view any study through our own spectrum of biases.

I grew up in a culture were meat was almost daily on your dinner plate, back then no one knew much about nutrition nor did anyone really care. I had to eat veggies but most of them had any life (vitamins, enzymes, etc.) cooked right out of them I became more interested in nutrition and exercise in my 20s, I pretty much ate like I am eating now, mostly raw plant-based food.

When I moved to the US my weight started spiraling out of control after I had been put on a nutrition plan that added a lot more dairy and animal protein into my diet by a clinical dietician during my second pregnancy. Even after doing lousy on all the high protein diets like Atkins, SouthBeach, Zone, etc. I still bought into the notion that protein is necessary for a healthy diet and weightloss. For a while I did a diet recommended by a German Health and Fitness guru which promoted protein shakes and increased protein intake. Sometimes I really need to be flogged with a wet noodle.

All that happened was that I felt worse and worse, no energy, my blood work getting worse and worse and my weight was exploding. And I still didn't get it, whereas in the last few years I hadn't bought into the Atkins notion of limiting carbs (veggies and fruit) I thought maybe I needed more yogurt, more protein shakes .... you get the picture

Then last year I was diagnosed with breast cancer. I was pretty discouraged by what conventional medicine had to offer and started doing research for weeks, 8 to 10 hours a day. Boy, was that a rude wake up call! I am 100 % positive that my protein intake responsible for my cancer growing out of control.

Literally everyone who had beat the odds had the common denominator, they changed their lifestyle and their diet. All of them without exception cut out dairy, animal protein, ate a diet of mainly raw whole foods. The more I read the more evidence and studies I found that whereas animal protein doesn't cause cancer, it promotes cancer growth. Cancer development goes through 3 stages, initiation, promotion and progression, an analogy would be planting a lawn, initiation is when you plant the seed, promotion is when you water, fertilize and it starts to grow, progression is when the grass gets out of control, overgrowing the driveway, sidewalk and shrubbery.
We have no control over the initiation, it can be chemicals that we are exposed to, smoking, drinking alcohol, etc. There are thousands and thousands of known carcinogens. What we do have control over in the majority of cases is to stop the promotion.

Aside from what I read, I can point to other people who are close to me but I never put it together until I had a light bulb moment a few months ago.

• My grandmother, diagnosed with colon cancer in her 60s, she did chemo but also changed her diet, the cancer went into remission for 6 years when she decided she had enough of the diet. 2 years later the cancer came back with a vengance and killed her in less than a year.

• A friend at my Naturopathic Oncologist's office was diagnosed with stage IV esophagual cancer and he was given 6 months to live. That was 3 years ago, all the metastasis in the bone, liver, stomach previously growing out of control have been non-detectable 1 year after chemo and within 6 months of him changing his diet.

• My parents both in their mid 60s, chain smokers all their life, heavy drinkers at least until recently, their diet is pretty good, almost no dairy, lots of veggies, occassional seafood for protein. As unbelievable as it is with all 4 of their parents dying of cancer in their 60s and 70s combined with my parents' history of chain smoking and heavy drinking, I am convinced that their diet is their saving grace.

There are about 100 that I personally know of, not to mention the thousands who I have read about, it is absolutely amazing but they never really are covered or even mentioned by the mainstream media, I am sure it has nothing to do with the fact that drug companies are a big part of the media's revenue

If I look at my own bloodwork now, in only a few months after eliminating animal protein and dairy, my cholesterol is down to 150, my good cholesterol is higher than my bad cholesterol, all inflammatory markers have been cut in half, my tumor marker is down to 6 (it's supposed to be below 38), there are no cancer cells detectable in my blood stream and my estrogen levels have come down by half without drugs. And I didn't eat unhealthy before, at least according to the general nutrition guidelines

I can't cite all the studies here but read the book "The China Study", it is mind boggling, even if you only believe a fraction of what he talks about! It is very scientific and evidence based, by the way, I was captivated by it and couldn't put it down.

So knowing what I know and what I have seen, I cringe every time someone gives the advice to increase their protein intake. I don't want to be overly zealous but on the other hand I don't want anyone else or anyone else's family to have to face a diagnosis like this because let me assure you, for a while this is pulling the rug out from underneath you. Prevention is much easier and a lot less strict sticking to a eating plan than curing cancer.

I don't want to sound preachy and I apologize if it comes across that way. And sorry for hijacking your thread, fitat49!

 

[morningstar]

From Tom Venuto's website

http://www.tomvenuto.com/asktom/protein_grams_per_meal.shtml

Q: Dear Tom: I know approximately what my protein needs are by bodyweight and activity level (about 180 grams), but the question I have always had is: how much protein can I eat/drink at one time? I have heard that only 30 grams can be digested at a time. I eat 5 times a day like you recommend, but supposing I only ate 3 times a day; that would be 60 grams of protein per meal. Would half of the protein be wasted?

A: Thirty grams of protein per meal seems to have become one of those "nutrition rules of thumb" that has been passed around so long that it has become accepted as an "unbreakable nutrition law." Some people claim that the human body can only digest 30 grams of protein per sitting (others claim the limit is 40 grams).

There has been a lot of research done on protein needs, although not much of it has focused specifically on the maximum amount digestible per meal. There have been studies where a large bolus of protein was eaten at one time rather than in small, frequent meals, and yet positive nitrogen balance was achieved. This would suggest that the 30 grams per meal limit does not exist and that 60 grams over three meals would allow your body to utilize the majority of that 180 grams.

30-40 grams per meal may be a pretty good rule of thumb for bodybuilding diets with an eating frequency of 5-6 small meals per day (slightly less for females). However, I have never found any research which says that the body has a "30 grams at a time" absolute limit and it doesn't seem likely that one fixed amount could apply to every person in every situation, with no accounting for body weight and activity level.

Nutritional needs - including protein - are highly variable depending on the individual. For example, are the protein needs for a 250-pound bodybuilder the same as a 105-pound ballerina? Are they the same for a 17-year-old football player and a sedentary 70-year-old? The obvious answer is no, and this is why you should look at dietary recommendations made as "absolutes" with caution. Instead, it's optimal to think in terms of customization for each individual.

The best way to figure out how much protein you need in one sitting is to first calculate your total daily protein needs. One gram per pound of bodyweight is a common recommendation (for active, strength-trained individuals), although total protein needs should be customized according to age, gender, body size, lean body mass, activity levels, energy status (deficit or surplus) and personal goals. Then take your daily needs and divide that amount by the number of meals you eat each day; usually five or six in a bodybuilding-style nutrition program.

As a bodybuilder or someone participating in regular strength training, the one gram per pound of bodyweight guideline is a pretty good estimate for daily protein needs (although some competitive bodybuilders go as high as 1.25 to 1.5 grams per pound on reduced carb pre-contest diets). If you weigh 180 pounds and you’re eating six times per day, then bingo – there’s your 30 grams. (180 grams divided by 6 meals). If you’re a 240-pound male bodybuilder, and you eat six times per day, now you’re up to 40 grams per meal.

If you’re a 125 pound female athlete, then 125 grams a day would suffice; spread over 5 meals a day, that’s 25 grams per meal. On a pre contest fitness or figure competition diet, many women eat up to 150-175 grams of protein per day, which, over five meals, is 30-35 grams per meal.

Some people think that the 30 grams of protein "rule" was started by protein supplement company marketing because thats the amount of protein they put into each serving of their product. However, looking at these examples, you can see that 30-35 grams of protein per meal is pretty close to the average amount that's consumed on a typical bodybuilding diet. My belief is that this is where the 30-gram "rule" came from - it's simply an average figure. But just because the "average" comes out to around 30 grams per meal, doesn’t mean that 30 grams is the most that you can digest.

The digestibility rate of high quality protein sources is 94 to 97% and even the protein in grains and beans is 78-85% digestible. Generally what happens with a large meal, including a large protein intake, is that the meal will simply take longer to digest, but the body will increase the rate of gastric emptying and nutrient absorption in response to the larger food intake. So while the 5 or 6 small meals a day is an accepted practice among bodybuilders, there doesn't seem to be any proof that you couldn't utilize the protein if you took it across only 3 meals instead.

On the other hand, if the total amount of protein exceeds what your body requires and if you are in a caloric surplus, you can convert the excess into body fat. Although protein is the least likely of the macronutrients to be converted to fat (due to an energy inefficient conversion process), a caloric surplus will always lead to fat deposition, even if the surplus comes from protein. In a caloric deficit, protein consumed beyond the body's needs for skeletal muscle and body tissue protein synthesis can be converted to glucose through a process called gluconeogensis.

Bottom line: Even large protein servings can be digested and absorbed, and it appears there is no 30 gram absolute limit. On the other hand, huge servings of protein at one time are not necessary for muscle growth. Beyond what is needed for growth, repair and energy, an excess of protein can get "wasted" if you are referring to being stored as fat or burned for energy.


References
1. Plant proteins in relation to human protein and amino acid nutrition. Young V. and Pellet P., American Journal of clinical Nutrition. 59. pp 1203S-1202S. 1994

2. Protein pulse feeding improves protein retention in elderly women. Arnal, M, et al. American Journal of clinical Nutrition. 69. 1202-1208. 1999

 

[hiitdogs]

http://www.tomvenuto.com/asktom/protein_grams_per_meal.shtml

Q: Dear Tom: I know approximately what my protein needs are by bodyweight and activity level (about 180 grams), but the question I have always had is: how much protein can I eat/drink at one time? I have heard that only 30 grams can be digested at a time. I eat 5 times a day like you recommend, but supposing I only ate 3 times a day; that would be 60 grams of protein per meal. Would half of the protein be wasted?

A: Thirty grams of protein per meal seems to have become one of those "nutrition rules of thumb" that has been passed around so long that it has become accepted as an "unbreakable nutrition law." Some people claim that the human body can only digest 30 grams of protein per sitting (others claim the limit is 40 grams).
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On the other hand, if the total amount of protein exceeds what your body requires and if you are in a caloric surplus, you can convert the excess into body fat. Although protein is the least likely of the macronutrients to be converted to fat (due to an energy inefficient conversion process), a caloric surplus will always lead to fat deposition, even if the surplus comes from protein. In a caloric deficit, protein consumed beyond the body's needs for skeletal muscle and body tissue protein synthesis can be converted to glucose through a process called gluconeogensis.

Bottom line: Even large protein servings can be digested and absorbed, and it appears there is no 30 gram absolute limit. On the other hand, huge servings of protein at one time are not necessary for muscle growth. Beyond what is needed for growth, repair and energy, an excess of protein can get "wasted" if you are referring to being stored as fat or burned for energy.


References
1. Plant proteins in relation to human protein and amino acid nutrition. Young V. and Pellet P., American Journal of clinical Nutrition. 59. pp 1203S-1202S. 1994

2. Protein pulse feeding improves protein retention in elderly women. Arnal, M, et al. American Journal of clinical Nutrition. 69. 1202-1208. 1999

The references that Tom Venuto uses are a 1994 article which over 10 pages discusses the digestibility of plant based proteins vs. animal based proteins. It deals with the issues of

1) Is plant protein complete protein?
2) Is plant protein as good as animal protein?
3) Imbalances can be cause by supplementation
4)Are plant proteins as digestible as animal protein

and the second reference, a 1999 article which discusses a study of protein anabolism in women over 68 and if a pulse feeding pattern of uneven amounts of protein was preferable to spread diet. Those women were observed for 14 days.

Nowhere in these articles is ANY research done on how much protein can be absorbed by the human body in a day, in one meal, etc. Not even a little blurb. Nor does it discuss the potential long-term effects of protein overconsumption.

I am not sure why Tom Venuto even put those references in because they really have nothing to do with the question or his answers. He says that it "appears" that larger amounts than 30 g can be absorbed but has zero research to back it up.

His article offers nothing than HIS personal opinion which I admit is good enough for many people. He apparently is not as hard-core as many other people in advising high protein amounts.

I think there is a difference between being healthy and looking healthy. Looking at the insanity that some bodybuilders take their body through, including steroids, I am not sure that a body builder would be the first person I would turn to get advice about a healthy lifestyle and how and what to eat.

I guess it all depends on what the individual is looking for. Some people will do anything and not stop at unhealthy practices to achieve their goal of a killer physique and some people are concerned about the long-term effects to their body because there has been very clear and undisputed scientific evidence by highly respected researchers (see The China Study) as to the adverse health effects of protein overconsumption.

I guess people need to do whatever floats their boat

 

[morningstar]

Just as an FYI, Carola, Tom Venuto is a bodybuilder against steroids, and only advocates bodybuilding naturally. Very many people on this forum take his words quite seriously, simply because he is a tremendous source of accurate information as well as someone who gives all sides to information that he presents. Many of those same people have had wonderful results following his advice.

 

[chammer]

Personally, i think there's a lot to be said for our body's innate wisdom and tuning into how we feel from consuming certain foods and/or certain macronutrient ratios. I think we can do a lot more damage to our systems with all the excess sugars (not to mention artificial sugars) and processed foods than is likely from consuming marginally excess protein - assuming it's QUALITY protein...nonGMO, no hormones/steroids/etcetc..grass fed, etc... and assuming you're consuming a good balance of other healthy natural foods. Consumption of sugar drops your immunity for several hours following each occurrence...and sugar incidentally feeds cancer like crazy.

I've monkeyed around a good bit with my macros and definitely feel best (and my food choices very naturally gravitate toward) a 25/25/50 to 30/30/40 (protein/fat/carb) ratio. This works out to about 1g/lb for me and I have the most consistent energy (no hi/lows) with more protein, quality natural fat sources, very limited sugar of any kind (including limited fruit), good doses of wide variety of non-starchy vegetables and leafy greens.

My metabolism functions most optimally with a good balance of animal protein as well - and i've tried mixing it up with more vegetarian (natural items beans, legumes, quinoa - not tofus and such) protein sources, etc.... and frankly, I gain weight that route. That said, too MUCH protein and I feel sluggish...I have to listen to my body.

So...all that rambling....and I guess my point is back to: our bodies are highly individual, packed with innate wisdom, and each of us has to learn to listen to that Research, guidelines and formulas can be a great education, but they don't account for a myriad of individual factors !

Good luck to everyone in finding what works for you !

 

[hiitdogs]

Just as an FYI, Carola, Tom Venuto is a bodybuilder against steroids, and only advocates bodybuilding naturally. Very many people on this forum take his words quite seriously, simply because he is a tremendous source of accurate information as well as someone who gives all sides to information that he presents. Many of those same people have had wonderful results following his advice.

I know who Tom Venuto is. I have read his book. Chill, I wasn't talking about him in regards to steroids. I said : "His article offers nothing than HIS personal opinion which I admit is good enough for many people. He apparently is not as hard-core as many other people in advising high protein amounts.

I think there is a difference between being healthy and looking healthy. Looking at the insanity that some bodybuilders take their body through, including steroids, I am not sure that a body builder would be the first person I would turn to get advice about a healthy lifestyle and how and what to eat."

The word body builder did not refer to Tom Venuto, I refered to "some bodybuilders". For some bodybuilding is an obsession with building muscle which sometimes is opposite to health and fitness.

Just because a good amount of people take Tom Venuto seriously doesn't mean I have to take everything he says without questioning it, especially if he uses references that don't apply to the question and answers. So spare me your condenscending "Just as an FYI Carola ...."

 

[story1267]

I've been following this thread with some interest as I too struggle to find my own "magic numbers"....

It's been a long time coming but I think I've finally realized that I really need to bring my calories down - for me it looks like around 1400 per day.

So that leaves me in the protein puzzle along with the OP.

I'm just shy of 5'2", about 130 lbs., medium frame, I'll call myself moderately active. I'm 41.

ahealthyme.com gives me the following to lose weight.

1400 calories
30% fat = 47 grams total but not more than 16 grams saturated
15% protein = 53 grams
55% carbs

So, I'll submit myself as an experiment.

I own BFFM, and have learned a lot from it, and really enjoyed The Body Fat Solution.

From Carola's previous posts I just checked out The China Study and will read that with great interest.

At the moment I guess I'm "protein neutral" but interested in maximizing my health with a ripped physique as a secondary goal.

I'll try using the macros from ahealthyme for a couple of weeks. See what happens.

 

[morningstar]

So spare me your condenscending "Just as an FYI Carola ...."

That was so wonderfully bitchy! I was laughing my ass off when I read it!

 

[hiitdogs]

That was so wonderfully bitchy! I was laughing my ass off when I read it!

I am glad I made you laugh! It sounds like you don't have much fun these days

 

[icumom]

That old hat 1 gram per pound is excessive and has become in vogue with the body building focus of the past few years....the actual need for most is one gram per KILOGRAM, which is one gram per 2.2 lbs.....adjusted of COURSE for if one is body building or going for a certain look....

I can tell you that at NIH and another major cancer center, if you are in cancer treatment, they want you OFF all animal products,,,,,especially red meat.............as a long term Cardiac ICU nurse, I NEVER could buy into preferring animal protein with its toxin rich fat to a plant based diet...

 

[SirenSongWoman]

I used to always read that one gram of protein for pound of actual body weight is usually about right but I know recently I've also read that that's actually too much. I can't tell you how many grams per day I get but I can tell you that since I started Precision Nutrition I do as Dr. Berardi suggests: Eat 5 or 6 times per day and get roughly 20 grams of LEAN protein at each "meal" (along with 2 servings of vegetables). Doing this has rapidly accelerated my weight loss and my lean muscle mass (thanks also to Cathe/STS) is really visible now, too.

 

[hiitdogs]

I've always read that, generally, one gram of protein for pound of actual body weight is usually about right.

The official recommended dietary allowance (RDA) for protein in adults is 0.8 grams per kilogram (=2.2 lbs) of body weight. If switched over to pounds, this would be 0.37 grams of protein per pound of body weight. A convenient way to estimate your daily protein requirement is to count 11 grams of protein for every 30 pounds of body weight.

There was an article in the November 2008 issue of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition found that this is a reasonable number for younger and older adults, and for both men and women. http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abs...INDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

ETA: Great job on your weightloss, Stacey!!! YOU GO GIRL!!!!!!!

For me it was the opposite, I lost weight when I cut out dairy and meat and started eating a diet of mostly raw and plant based whole foods. I guess everyone is different.

 

[LaughingWater]

I'm on the verge of finishing Meso 1. I think I'll lower my protein to the 50-60 range, reduce dairy, and see what happens.

I'll miss milk and cheese, but I'm quite disciplined, so if cutting it out works for me, I'll have little trouble walking away. I've never been much of a carnivore, so avoiding animal protein won't be difficult.

Anyone read anything about plain, organic yogurt?

 

[hiitdogs]

Anyone read anything about plain, organic yogurt?

Many think yogurt is healthy. Not according to Professor T. Colin Campbell of Cornell University who says casein, a protein in milk and thus in yogurt, promotes cancer.

Campbell found that the lowest amount of casein needed to switch on tumor growth averaged about 10% of the diet. The typical American diet averages about 17% protein, but not all of that comes from casein.

E.J. Hawrylewicz, research director at Merry Hospital and Medical Center in Chicago, found that laboratory rats were more likely to develop breast cancer when they were fed casein than they were when given soy protein. He discovered that to produce significant tumor growth he had to feed the rats a diet consisting of 20% casein. Yet Hawrylewicz believes casein is not harmful if consumed in modest amounts. Both scientists agree that a wise anti-cancer plan is to follow a diet emphasizing plant protein instead of the animal variety.
A study of U.S. women published in the May 9, 1998 issue of Lancet linked insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) with breast cancer. The study showed a 7-fold increased risk of breast cancer among pre-menopausal women with the highest levels of IGF-1 in their blood.

I have cut ALL dairy out, including my beloved Fage yogurt, although I have said before anyone who wants to restrict my Fage will risk serious injury . I think my situation is a little different though, at this point I am not willing to take any risk. For anyone who is not effected by any disease I would think that it is okay to eat organic yogurt occassionally but maybe not every day.

I have heard that organic raw milk yogurt is better because the pasteurisation and homogenisation process destroys not only vital enzymes but also the homogenisation process alters the fat molecules causing that instead of being digested it goes through the stomach lining directly into the blood stream, thus clogging the ateries. I haven't found any studies that I found credible to support that, however, my thought is in many cases whenever we start tinkering with a natural product not much good comes out of it.

 

[LaughingWater]

Thanks for the info, Carola. I'm going to hunt down Campbell's book. I hope there are follow-up studies in the works.

As you know, DH is undergoing treatment for testicular cancer. I've had some funky readings on my mammograms, and my 13 y/o is now hinting as some very early signs of Lupus. While I still respect traditional clinical medicine, I'm also intimately aware of its limitations, and it certainly doesn't hurt to arm oneself with as much knowledge about the body as possible. I'm open to all options.

 

[syzygy314]

Okay, I can't seem to find it at this particular moment, but I believe the standard for most people is .36 grams per pound of body weight. If I remember correctly (it's been a while since I studied Fitness Science), this is the guideline by the American College of Sports Medicine (ACSM), a highly respected research and certification group. No one other than extreme athletes require more protein than this to maintain or improve general muscle mass. So, unless you are training for Mr. or Ms. Universe, I would eat protein based on this and it really isn't that much! As everyone else has stated, it is a fact that too much protein puts and excessive amount of stress on the kidneys. That is why I hate when friends talk about being on high protein diets. These are not diets one can stay on longterm because of the detrimental affects of high amounts of protein on the kidneys.

But I digress . . .

 

[pink_fortitude]

CAROLA!!!

I am very intrigued by your posts in this thread. I am absolutely amazed at the results you have had in regards to fighting cancer and, really!, my hats off to you!!! Doctors should be more open minded about treatments involving what you have done than what is mainstream, and they should be lining up to learn what they can from people who have survived the way that you are. (I have watched people die while fighting cancer with chemo and I have told myself that I will NEVER do that to my body, I want to fight it the natural way)

I have read "The China Study" a couple of years ago and was convinced about the entire case he presented against dairy (being lactose intolerant only made it easier to cut the cheese... no pun intended ;]). But what I am really interested in is what your average day looks like: what do you eat and what are your workouts like? Would you feel comfortable sharing your average meal plan for the day with us and if not, would you pm it to me? My eating is mostly plant based with little to no dairy and some meat, but I would love to see what you do. Do you eat breads/cereals; what kind? Sorry for the third degree, you just seem to have really researched this out. My biggest concern with taking away animal proteins completely is that I do tough workouts and I want to make sure that I am giving my body an adequate amount of complete proteins for recovery.

TIA!
Missy

 

[story1267]

Missy, I hope Carola will chime in a little with her own regimen if she cares to. I've been struggling to find minutes here and there for The China Study but my main reaction so far is "where was I when this came out?" There is info in this book that would have changed my life years ago but I didn't know, or knew and couldn't accept. Not sure.

For years back in the late 80's and early 90's I was a "bad" vegetarian. So, I didn't eat meat but the rest of my diet was primarily cheese, butter, and white flour pasta.

Not suprisingly now, in hindsight, makes sense why I was so fat, and sluggish, and exhausted all the time.

I went back to meat eating on the advice of an anthroposophic practitioner and actually felt better. Since then it's been a meandering journey to find a way to eat that makes me feel good and is good for me.

Over the past few days I've been looking at cutting back my protein and it's actually harder than I thought! Those grams just add up so quickly even at 1400 calories.

I'm really at a turning point here in my life - about to get re-married, moving in with my DF, and we are both interested in maximizing our health. He's indicated some interest in increasing his vegetarian meals (although, admittedly, he is the grill-master and I don't think we'll be going totally vegan anytime soon).

So, this is a lot of yada, yada to say.....

Carola, would you please tell us what you eat? I understand your decision to eliminate all animal products (hugs to you for giving up the Fage ).

Thanks!

 

[hiitdogs]

I will! I just got sidetracked yesterday and I need to run to my Friday doctor appointment to get poked in the arm . I will be back later this afternoon.

 

[hiitdogs]

Okay, I am back

I don't want to denigrate any individuals choice of treatment or experience. Cancer is far to complicated and serious to allow for dogmatism. What I do advocate though is prevention and any patient's right to get full information and disclosure to be able to make an informed choice. Unfortunately right now most patients don't.

I have found that most conventional doctors do not believe in nutrition or anything else than drugs. I have heard doctors say that nutrition has NOTHING to do with cancer let alone curing/healing and I have heard that I shouldn't eat too healthy because as I get stronger so will the cancer Sure, congratulations, cancer dead but so is the patient
In all fairness to doctors it is really hard to weed through the medical information and clinical trials and find the ones that are unbiased and relevant and many doctors are just as mislead by "scientific" papers and the drug companies as we are. Doctors know diseases but they are no drug researchers. And as in every profession there are the really good ones who genuinely care bur there are also the ones who only care for the economic incentive, they are making a LOT of money from the chemo drugs.

My surgeon asked me and I have heard that many times "Don't you think if there was anything that could cure cancer they'd be using it by now and get rich?" Sure they would, as long as the drug can be patented and it is something that can treat cancer like a chronic disease over the long term. They are not interested in a vitamin or diet that can't be patented and doesn't make them much money over the long run. Unfortunately cancer research is not the altruistic endeavor that we are lead to believe.

I read a book this morning that I picked up at the library at the recommendation of another forum member and I wanted to mention it because it pretty much is how I eat. It is very no-nonsense and explained in simple terms. The Raw Food Detox Diet by Natalia Rose. And she doesn't ask or even suggest 100 % raw like many of the other raw food books. I have one warm meal on most days.

I went pretty much cold turkey when I changed my diet but Natalia Rose has several transition levels in that book. And she has a hierarchy of foods (1=best, 11=worst)

1. Raw fruits and vegetables (preferably organic), raw honey, stevia
2. Lightly steamed, low-starch vegetables (all vegetables except white potatoes, acorn squash, butternut squash, pumpkin), maple syrup, agave nectar - corn and legumes are starches
3. Organic raw nuts and seeds
4. Raw stone-pressed or cold-pressed plant oils (olive oil, hemp seed and flax seed oil)
5. Cooked starchy vegetables
6. Raw unpasteurized dairy products (especially goats and sheep)
7. Whole grains (brown rice, millet, whole wheat, buckwheat, etc)
8. Pasteurized dairy and meat (preferably limited to organic fish and minimal organic meat and poultry)
9. Non-whole grain flour products
10. Cooked animal fats/hydrogenated oils (lard, cooked oils, etc), mainstream meats, poultry, soy products
11. Chemicals, artificial coloring and sweeteners

Eating within levels 1 to 8 is acceptable in the Raw Food Detox program, recommended is to eat within levels 1 to 5 (which is what I do but I eat whole grains and some fish - once or twice a week)

I do journal what I eat but I don't count calories, fat grams, protein or carb content and I don't measure my food, I eat when I am hungry and if I am not hungry I skip a meal even if it is mealtime. I only scribble down what I eat and put it in a journal at night because my doctor wants to see it, otherwise I wouldn't because I think about nothing but food when I put what I eat in fitday or Cathe's program and fiddle around with my macro and micronutrients. If someone says the word diet, I want to eat, food was the center of my universe when I used those calorie counting, macronutrient tracking software programs, let alone any diet. Things have to be simple for me and I don't want to know 3 weeks ahead of time what I will be eating in 21 days or chase all over town to find ingredients for a meal.

This is what a typical day will look like

Before Workout: Green lemonade (juiced romaine, kale, whole organic lemon, 2 apples, ginger) or green smoothie with hemp protein, berries, spinach, spirulina, banana, fresh orange juice)

After workout: Lime juice w/ coconutwater and a pinch of cayenne pepper (for rehydration)

Breakfast: Fruit, Lara or Dr. Weil bar or oatmeal with berries and almond milk, Go raw cereal with fruit and almond milk

Snacks: Fruit, fresh fruit or veggie juice, raw crackers or crusts, nuts or trail mix, veggies and hummus, ezekiel bread w/ almond butter .....

Lunch: Salad or Sandwich (vegan with hummus, sprouts, avocado, cucumber, carrots, mushrooms, etc or tuna salad) + fresh veggie juice or brown rice sushi

Dinner: Steamed veggies plus fish and salad or rice, lentils and veggies or tortilla w/rice, beans and fresh salsa or whole wheat pasta with pesto and salad or veggie lentil stew, various soups and stews etc.

Most of my protein comes from spirulina (which I eat every day), rice and beans, hemp protein powder, nuts and seeds. I have one tsp of bee pollen and 4 Tbsp of ground flax seed, probiotics and fish oil every day, plus some supplements that are specific for my cancer treatment but I don't take any multi vitamins. I drink at least 10 glasses of water and 5 to 8 cups of green tea.

My exercise is

• 6 days of cardio (mainly running with my dogs between 3 and 10 miles, 3 or 4 of them are Cardio Coach and one day of kickbox)
• 3 days of weightlifting (currently a Slow and Heavy rotation)
• Yoga and Qi Gong on alternating days
• Jumping on my rebounder for 15 to 20 minutes every other day (mainly for detox - with my surgery they took 25 of my 40 lymph nodes underneath my arm - and to avoid lymphedema)
• 30 minute evening walks with my dogs on non-rebounder days

I think that covers everything. If you have any additional questions, ask away, either here or pm me.

HTH