Fast Food Nation
- Thread starter luvmylabs
- Start date
Muffin Top
Cathlete
I found this entire thread (with the exception of the obvious attacks) to be very enlightening. I enjoyed reading both sides--and it's clear that sources can be pulled to support either side. I have no side. I think people can choose what's right for themselves. Thanks for educating me this afternoon!
kathryn
Cathlete
>You need a B12 supplement? Yes? No? If so, doesn't that tell
>you something? You are on a diet that requires outside
>supplements because of deficiencies you are bringing into it
>because you refuse to eat meat. You refuse to eat meat because
>you feel that humans and animals should be on equal footing I
>assume.
>Just so I understand it, that's all.
If you read my other post on B12, you would see that B12 is necessary to supplement because of our modern lifestyle.
I don't think that animals and humans should be on equal footing (animals shouldn't have the right to vote, for example), but that we should extend our compassion to all living creatures, and we have reached a point in our evolution where we can choose a more humane and environmentally sound diet. We can choose to be caretakers of the animals rather than exploiters of them. That choice alone shows that we are not 'on equal footing,' as animals have no choice in what they can eat.
And I would like to undestand your previous statement aboutthe cells of the intestines, as I have found no information anywhere that confirms it. What cell types were you refering to?
You know that old saying about 'when you assume...."?
>you something? You are on a diet that requires outside
>supplements because of deficiencies you are bringing into it
>because you refuse to eat meat. You refuse to eat meat because
>you feel that humans and animals should be on equal footing I
>assume.
>Just so I understand it, that's all.
If you read my other post on B12, you would see that B12 is necessary to supplement because of our modern lifestyle.
I don't think that animals and humans should be on equal footing (animals shouldn't have the right to vote, for example), but that we should extend our compassion to all living creatures, and we have reached a point in our evolution where we can choose a more humane and environmentally sound diet. We can choose to be caretakers of the animals rather than exploiters of them. That choice alone shows that we are not 'on equal footing,' as animals have no choice in what they can eat.
And I would like to undestand your previous statement aboutthe cells of the intestines, as I have found no information anywhere that confirms it. What cell types were you refering to?
You know that old saying about 'when you assume...."?
kathryn
Cathlete
> The science
>doesn't back up alot of these claims you see here though.
>Having an opinion that is backed up by scientific fact is not
>being defensive. Refusing to look at the scientific data is,
>however, sticking one's head in the sand.
>As someone said, agree to disagree.
In that case, please present your scentific information about intestinal cell types that you mentioned above as an argument from your 'unbiased' reading sources.
>doesn't back up alot of these claims you see here though.
>Having an opinion that is backed up by scientific fact is not
>being defensive. Refusing to look at the scientific data is,
>however, sticking one's head in the sand.
>As someone said, agree to disagree.
In that case, please present your scentific information about intestinal cell types that you mentioned above as an argument from your 'unbiased' reading sources.
kathryn
Cathlete
>Well, the purpose of the appendix was to help our bodies
>digest raw meat...of course, since most people cook it now, it
>is largely unnecessary and that is why it can be removed.
?????
I'm all for discussion of valid information, but since no one knows with 100% certainty what the appendix is for, I don't see how you can make that statement unless you've made some miraculous scientific discovery! (where did this information come from? A particular author? )
In fact, while Wikipedia is not necessarily the most reliable source of information on all things, this is what it says about what is known about the appendix (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermiform_appendix#Function )
"Currently, the function of the appendix, if any, remains controversial in the field of human physiology. It has been known to cause the ability to process bark, leaves and other things of that nature.
There have been cases of people who have been found, usually on laparoscopy or laparotomy, to have a congenital absence of their appendix. There have been no reports of impaired immune or gastrointestinal function in these people.
One explanation has been that the appendix is a vestigial structure with no current purpose.[citation needed] The appendix is thought to have descended from an organ in our distant herbivorous ancestors called the cecum (or caecum). The cecum is maintained in modern herbivores, where it houses the bacteria that digest cellulose, a chemically tough carbohydrate that these animals could not otherwise utilize. The human appendix contains no significant number of these bacteria, and cellulose is indigestible to us. It seems likely that the appendix lost this function before our ancestors became recognizably human."
>digest raw meat...of course, since most people cook it now, it
>is largely unnecessary and that is why it can be removed.
?????
I'm all for discussion of valid information, but since no one knows with 100% certainty what the appendix is for, I don't see how you can make that statement unless you've made some miraculous scientific discovery! (where did this information come from? A particular author? )
In fact, while Wikipedia is not necessarily the most reliable source of information on all things, this is what it says about what is known about the appendix (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermiform_appendix#Function )
"Currently, the function of the appendix, if any, remains controversial in the field of human physiology. It has been known to cause the ability to process bark, leaves and other things of that nature.
There have been cases of people who have been found, usually on laparoscopy or laparotomy, to have a congenital absence of their appendix. There have been no reports of impaired immune or gastrointestinal function in these people.
One explanation has been that the appendix is a vestigial structure with no current purpose.[citation needed] The appendix is thought to have descended from an organ in our distant herbivorous ancestors called the cecum (or caecum). The cecum is maintained in modern herbivores, where it houses the bacteria that digest cellulose, a chemically tough carbohydrate that these animals could not otherwise utilize. The human appendix contains no significant number of these bacteria, and cellulose is indigestible to us. It seems likely that the appendix lost this function before our ancestors became recognizably human."
kathryn
Cathlete
>The types of cells that make up the intestine
>is what counts in general. Humans have cell types and
>receptors that favor eating meat.
What is the source of this information? It doesn't seem to be something that nutritionists or doctors are familiar with. I'm always interested in learning, as you say you are, so I'd like to know what particular 'cell types' and 'receptors' you are talking about (and would also like a reference to where this info is from, because it doesn't seem to be standard information in medical texts).
>is what counts in general. Humans have cell types and
>receptors that favor eating meat.
What is the source of this information? It doesn't seem to be something that nutritionists or doctors are familiar with. I'm always interested in learning, as you say you are, so I'd like to know what particular 'cell types' and 'receptors' you are talking about (and would also like a reference to where this info is from, because it doesn't seem to be standard information in medical texts).
Muffin Top
Cathlete
"The APPENDIX is an extension of the small intestines attached to the top end of the large intestines. The small intestines are the incubator for the body to incubate the bacteria that breaks down the food so the vitamins, nourishment, and minerals the body needs can be dissolved in the water we drink that the body needs when eating raw meat it chewed it up, put in the stomach and mixed with water, acid and bacteria to multiply and break down the food so it can be dissolved in water. But the raw meat takes longer to break down than cooked and ripe food does. The raw meat goes into the APPENDIX and is incubated in the APPENDIX and broken down while the other food goes on down the line. The APPENDIX is the special incubator for the raw meat. The APPENDIX keeps rolling to keep the raw meat mixing to dissolve all the nutrients. When the raw meat gets broken down and soft it comes out of the APPENDIX and goes into the large intestines so the polyps can extract all the water and nourishment. If you would use the energy cleaner and a wrap around energy pad it would stimulate the APPENDIX to roll much more and keep the APPENDIX emptying out to be clean so no old food that didn't break down good enough would become stuck in the APPENDIX and make the APPENDIX sick. Dogs have a large APPENDIX because they use theirs. Humans have very little use for a APPENDIX, if any."
http://www.edkuniversity.com/body.html
It was a doctor who told me Kathryn--namely the Dr. who removed my appendix. I was able to find this from edkuniversity, yet I don't think it would matter my source.
http://www.edkuniversity.com/body.html
It was a doctor who told me Kathryn--namely the Dr. who removed my appendix. I was able to find this from edkuniversity, yet I don't think it would matter my source.
slimmingmom
Cathlete
>
>There are a few points in your statement that I would like to
>address.
>We do actually raise beef. You will never be able to eat a
>T-bone that came from a chicken or a pig. Nor will you be
>able to have a drumstick that originated from a cow.
>I think that we are more connected to our food than most
>people today, including your self as I do now what it takes to
>make the food in our grocery stores. See, we have to right
>the check for the equipment, plus fuel and repairs for the
>equipment, to produce the food that we feed to the cows.
>For all those that think that livestock is terribly
>mistreated. I feel that a few days on an actual working ranch
>may change your opinions. The long sleepless nights up with
>first time mothers. The long cold days out making sure that
>livestock are fed, watered, and have protection in subzero
>weather. All this long before we actually eat ourselves.
>In closing I believe that your last statement is the most true
>of your words and is more directed towards yourself than me.
Although I myself do not come from a farming backgroung, my husband does, and I have been part of it for the last 10 years. So I know where you are coming from. And I know quite a lot about this subject. My husband raised 4 H beef growing up and began working as a farmhand at 13. His sister and her husband ran a feedlot and until recently have run a 275 cow calf operation for years. (BTW my SIL had names for most of the cows and calves as well so they were not just dollar signs to them.) They have raised beef to be sent to slaughter as well as running thier own butcher shop on the farm. (Where we use to get all our beef YUM!) My husband has overseen a 300 cow calf operation himself for years in the past. I know what it's like to be on 24 hour watch during calving season, and I've seen the love ranchers have for their animals. I remember one cold night when a cow would not take to her calf and we had to bring it in. Guess where it slept. In our house. With us up most of the night sitting beside it comforting it. Keeping watch and feeding it. His Mother and step father have raised beef as well until recently when it was too hard for them to work full time and run the farm. My husband hauled cattle, and I can remember many times going with him to help drive or him pushing all his limits because he was out of hours, but didn't want the cattle in the trailer for too long. We lived 5 km from a kill plant. We had a friend that worked there as well so I know what really goes on inside. And as far as his comment about exploited imigrants...I can't speak for what happens in the States because I am from Canada. But I can tell you this. The plant that I lived by as well as most kill plants in Alberta employe minoritys on the kill floor (yes that is what it is called) But, most of these people have come to Canada for a better life. They have no other skills and a very poor grasp of english. Cargill pays these workers well and they are able to give their families an oppertunaty that they would not have without this job. And they are in no way exploited, and very thankful for this job. I eat beef and I'm a proud supporter of the beef industry. I have a story that my MIL wrote about a bad day at the farm, if ranchers were as bad as vegans make them out to be I can assure you that she would not of had this day. I can post it if you want, but it's long.
I have no problem with people who choose not to eat meat, that is your God given choice, but don't look down on us because we do, that is our god given choice.
And here is a link for all you PETA supporters.
http://www.petakillsanimals.com/
Just a little behind the scenes for you.
To the origianl poster, I got the artical as well, and the BIGGEST problem I have with it is he is hypocritical in his own interview. He states at the end that he does not push his views on anybody, but if they ask he will talk about it. THEN WHY THE HECK HAS HE MADE A MOVIE ABOUT HIS VIEWS??????
Quoated from the artical:
I don't eat meat, but I hate to impose my own views on others, even my own family. It's kind of a personal thing. I hate when vegetarians impose their stuff on other people. But if you want to ask me, I'll tell you about it.
Hey I didn't ask!!!
And as far as the fecal matter being in hamburger, well as with anything mistakes can happen, that is why we end up with recalled beef. This is not the norm. And as I recall did we not just have a huge spinach recall for the very same reason?! This is like saying don't ever eat spinach, it has poo on it!
I'm done for now.......Let me know if you want to read My MIL story.
>There are a few points in your statement that I would like to
>address.
>We do actually raise beef. You will never be able to eat a
>T-bone that came from a chicken or a pig. Nor will you be
>able to have a drumstick that originated from a cow.
>I think that we are more connected to our food than most
>people today, including your self as I do now what it takes to
>make the food in our grocery stores. See, we have to right
>the check for the equipment, plus fuel and repairs for the
>equipment, to produce the food that we feed to the cows.
>For all those that think that livestock is terribly
>mistreated. I feel that a few days on an actual working ranch
>may change your opinions. The long sleepless nights up with
>first time mothers. The long cold days out making sure that
>livestock are fed, watered, and have protection in subzero
>weather. All this long before we actually eat ourselves.
>In closing I believe that your last statement is the most true
>of your words and is more directed towards yourself than me.
Although I myself do not come from a farming backgroung, my husband does, and I have been part of it for the last 10 years. So I know where you are coming from. And I know quite a lot about this subject. My husband raised 4 H beef growing up and began working as a farmhand at 13. His sister and her husband ran a feedlot and until recently have run a 275 cow calf operation for years. (BTW my SIL had names for most of the cows and calves as well so they were not just dollar signs to them.) They have raised beef to be sent to slaughter as well as running thier own butcher shop on the farm. (Where we use to get all our beef YUM!) My husband has overseen a 300 cow calf operation himself for years in the past. I know what it's like to be on 24 hour watch during calving season, and I've seen the love ranchers have for their animals. I remember one cold night when a cow would not take to her calf and we had to bring it in. Guess where it slept. In our house. With us up most of the night sitting beside it comforting it. Keeping watch and feeding it. His Mother and step father have raised beef as well until recently when it was too hard for them to work full time and run the farm. My husband hauled cattle, and I can remember many times going with him to help drive or him pushing all his limits because he was out of hours, but didn't want the cattle in the trailer for too long. We lived 5 km from a kill plant. We had a friend that worked there as well so I know what really goes on inside. And as far as his comment about exploited imigrants...I can't speak for what happens in the States because I am from Canada. But I can tell you this. The plant that I lived by as well as most kill plants in Alberta employe minoritys on the kill floor (yes that is what it is called) But, most of these people have come to Canada for a better life. They have no other skills and a very poor grasp of english. Cargill pays these workers well and they are able to give their families an oppertunaty that they would not have without this job. And they are in no way exploited, and very thankful for this job. I eat beef and I'm a proud supporter of the beef industry. I have a story that my MIL wrote about a bad day at the farm, if ranchers were as bad as vegans make them out to be I can assure you that she would not of had this day. I can post it if you want, but it's long.
I have no problem with people who choose not to eat meat, that is your God given choice, but don't look down on us because we do, that is our god given choice.
And here is a link for all you PETA supporters.
http://www.petakillsanimals.com/
Just a little behind the scenes for you.
To the origianl poster, I got the artical as well, and the BIGGEST problem I have with it is he is hypocritical in his own interview. He states at the end that he does not push his views on anybody, but if they ask he will talk about it. THEN WHY THE HECK HAS HE MADE A MOVIE ABOUT HIS VIEWS??????
Quoated from the artical:
I don't eat meat, but I hate to impose my own views on others, even my own family. It's kind of a personal thing. I hate when vegetarians impose their stuff on other people. But if you want to ask me, I'll tell you about it.
Hey I didn't ask!!!
And as far as the fecal matter being in hamburger, well as with anything mistakes can happen, that is why we end up with recalled beef. This is not the norm. And as I recall did we not just have a huge spinach recall for the very same reason?! This is like saying don't ever eat spinach, it has poo on it!
I'm done for now.......Let me know if you want to read My MIL story.
slimmingmom
Cathlete
>>Prickly-Pear = you don't "raise beef" (as if you're tending a
>field of steaks). Beef is a by-product. You raise ANIMALS -
>in your case, cows - living beings that you then sell to
>slaughter for profit. This kind of thinking is what Fast Food
>Nation is about - this disconnected thinking of food not
>coming from an actual place, but rather, just appearing. In
>this country we kill 50-60,000 cows EVERY DAY to feed the
>gluttons that we have become. We grow more corn to feed
>cattle than we do to feed people. And more water is consumed
>for the same purpose. Next time you walk through the grocery
>store, instead of just shopping, look around. Every thing
>came from somewhere. Just imagine the quantities of
>everything it takes to make everything. Check out the freezer
>case of turkeys and see not plastic wrapped packages, but
>actual birds. It is truly eye-opening to consider where it
>all comes from. It actually boggles the mind. Perhaps if we
>each had to slaughter and/or grow our own food, as our
>ancestors did, we would become a more thoughtful and healthy
>society.
>The end (I'm done now). Thanks for your consideration.
And I say AMEN to all the hard working Farmers that supply everything that you have mentioned. Even the vegtables you live off of.
>field of steaks). Beef is a by-product. You raise ANIMALS -
>in your case, cows - living beings that you then sell to
>slaughter for profit. This kind of thinking is what Fast Food
>Nation is about - this disconnected thinking of food not
>coming from an actual place, but rather, just appearing. In
>this country we kill 50-60,000 cows EVERY DAY to feed the
>gluttons that we have become. We grow more corn to feed
>cattle than we do to feed people. And more water is consumed
>for the same purpose. Next time you walk through the grocery
>store, instead of just shopping, look around. Every thing
>came from somewhere. Just imagine the quantities of
>everything it takes to make everything. Check out the freezer
>case of turkeys and see not plastic wrapped packages, but
>actual birds. It is truly eye-opening to consider where it
>all comes from. It actually boggles the mind. Perhaps if we
>each had to slaughter and/or grow our own food, as our
>ancestors did, we would become a more thoughtful and healthy
>society.
>The end (I'm done now). Thanks for your consideration.
And I say AMEN to all the hard working Farmers that supply everything that you have mentioned. Even the vegtables you live off of.
kathryn
Cathlete
The source DOES matter. I would most definitely not take this source as a valid source of medical info.
The following info is from the same site:
"HEALTH FAILURE occurs when the energy channels get plugged from the brain to a group of cells in an organ and the signal from the brain gets weak and the cell slows down and will not cycle well. Letting the energy sludge start to build up in the cells as the energy channels keep building up with the heavy metals from the atmosphere we live in, causes HEALTH FAILURE.The signal from the brain keeps getting weaker until the organ quits working. You have all kinds of body HEALTH FAILUREdepending upon which organ shuts down. Bathe in the Fountain of Youth to gain back your energy to be Healthy-Happy-Young"
The following info is from the same site:
"HEALTH FAILURE occurs when the energy channels get plugged from the brain to a group of cells in an organ and the signal from the brain gets weak and the cell slows down and will not cycle well. Letting the energy sludge start to build up in the cells as the energy channels keep building up with the heavy metals from the atmosphere we live in, causes HEALTH FAILURE.The signal from the brain keeps getting weaker until the organ quits working. You have all kinds of body HEALTH FAILUREdepending upon which organ shuts down. Bathe in the Fountain of Youth to gain back your energy to be Healthy-Happy-Young"
Hello Slimmingmom-
I see you are new here. So welcome.
I'm sure being a farmer is a very tough job and I'm glad there are people who choose to do it. Please understand that veganism is not a slam against farmers. Rather it is a statement about believing in an animal's right not to be killed and eaten. It is essentially a non violent statement.
For me, it took me a long time to get where I am and it was a journey that took a lot of thought and research. I support farmers everyday when I buy produce and I'm sure the farm industry gets millions from vegans around the world. I understand that many farmers take care of their animals and treat them with respect. In fact, there are many vegan farms out there as well. The difference is, vegans believe that animals have a right to live their lives, just as we allow our pets to do. We don't divide animals up into pets and livestock, or those we love and those we kill and eat. We cannot make that distinction. They all have feelings, fears, a desire to live, etc, and so we recognize that.
I understand that people don't understand why vegans seem so forceful in their beliefs. I used to be just as confused. I mean you eat what you want to eat, and let me eat what I want...right? Well, its kinda difficult for us because we truly believe that an animal has a right to live. It's almost as bad as watching someone eating a person and not saying anything. I know that sounds crazy but if you believe, truly believe, that an animal has a right to a life, then it becomes impossible to not voice your opinion. It becomes impossible to not mourn the loss of thousands of lives a day.
Anyway, that's my take on it.
Have a great day!
Carolyn
I see you are new here. So welcome.
I'm sure being a farmer is a very tough job and I'm glad there are people who choose to do it. Please understand that veganism is not a slam against farmers. Rather it is a statement about believing in an animal's right not to be killed and eaten. It is essentially a non violent statement.
For me, it took me a long time to get where I am and it was a journey that took a lot of thought and research. I support farmers everyday when I buy produce and I'm sure the farm industry gets millions from vegans around the world. I understand that many farmers take care of their animals and treat them with respect. In fact, there are many vegan farms out there as well. The difference is, vegans believe that animals have a right to live their lives, just as we allow our pets to do. We don't divide animals up into pets and livestock, or those we love and those we kill and eat. We cannot make that distinction. They all have feelings, fears, a desire to live, etc, and so we recognize that.
I understand that people don't understand why vegans seem so forceful in their beliefs. I used to be just as confused. I mean you eat what you want to eat, and let me eat what I want...right? Well, its kinda difficult for us because we truly believe that an animal has a right to live. It's almost as bad as watching someone eating a person and not saying anything. I know that sounds crazy but if you believe, truly believe, that an animal has a right to a life, then it becomes impossible to not voice your opinion. It becomes impossible to not mourn the loss of thousands of lives a day.
Anyway, that's my take on it.
Have a great day!
Carolyn
slimmingmom
Cathlete
>Hello Slimmingmom-
>I see you are new here. So welcome.
>
>I'm sure being a farmer is a very tough job and I'm glad there
>are people who choose to do it. Please understand that
>veganism is not a slam against farmers. Rather it is a
>statement about believing in an animal's right not to be
>killed and eaten. It is essentially a non violent statement.
>
>For me, it took me a long time to get where I am and it was a
>journey that took a lot of thought and research. I support
>farmers everyday when I buy produce and I'm sure the farm
>industry gets millions from vegans around the world. I
>understand that many farmers take care of their animals and
>treat them with respect. In fact, there are many vegan farms
>out there as well. The difference is, vegans believe that
>animals have a right to live their lives, just as we allow our
>pets to do. We don't divide animals up into pets and
>livestock, or those we love and those we kill and eat. We
>cannot make that distinction. They all have feelings, fears, a
>desire to live, etc, and so we recognize that.
>
>I understand that people don't understand why vegans seem so
>forceful in their beliefs. I used to be just as confused. I
>mean you eat what you want to eat, and let me eat what I
>want...right? Well, its kinda difficult for us because we
>truly believe that an animal has a right to live. It's almost
>as bad as watching someone eating a person and not saying
>anything. I know that sounds crazy but if you believe, truly
>believe, that an animal has a right to a life, then it becomes
>impossible to not voice your opinion. It becomes impossible to
>not mourn the loss of thousands of lives a day.
>
>Anyway, that's my take on it.
>Have a great day!
>Carolyn
>
>
And I can understand that you feel this way, but why should I respect your way of life, when you don't respect mine, and want me to change mine? I think vegans need to understand that if THEY want to live within their views that is fine. But I don't want to live that way, and I don't believe that animals are equals. And for the same reason I would never force you to eat a hamburger, you need to understand and respect that there are people out there that eat meat, that will never change.
>I see you are new here. So welcome.
>
>I'm sure being a farmer is a very tough job and I'm glad there
>are people who choose to do it. Please understand that
>veganism is not a slam against farmers. Rather it is a
>statement about believing in an animal's right not to be
>killed and eaten. It is essentially a non violent statement.
>
>For me, it took me a long time to get where I am and it was a
>journey that took a lot of thought and research. I support
>farmers everyday when I buy produce and I'm sure the farm
>industry gets millions from vegans around the world. I
>understand that many farmers take care of their animals and
>treat them with respect. In fact, there are many vegan farms
>out there as well. The difference is, vegans believe that
>animals have a right to live their lives, just as we allow our
>pets to do. We don't divide animals up into pets and
>livestock, or those we love and those we kill and eat. We
>cannot make that distinction. They all have feelings, fears, a
>desire to live, etc, and so we recognize that.
>
>I understand that people don't understand why vegans seem so
>forceful in their beliefs. I used to be just as confused. I
>mean you eat what you want to eat, and let me eat what I
>want...right? Well, its kinda difficult for us because we
>truly believe that an animal has a right to live. It's almost
>as bad as watching someone eating a person and not saying
>anything. I know that sounds crazy but if you believe, truly
>believe, that an animal has a right to a life, then it becomes
>impossible to not voice your opinion. It becomes impossible to
>not mourn the loss of thousands of lives a day.
>
>Anyway, that's my take on it.
>Have a great day!
>Carolyn
>
>
And I can understand that you feel this way, but why should I respect your way of life, when you don't respect mine, and want me to change mine? I think vegans need to understand that if THEY want to live within their views that is fine. But I don't want to live that way, and I don't believe that animals are equals. And for the same reason I would never force you to eat a hamburger, you need to understand and respect that there are people out there that eat meat, that will never change.
pixiesis
Cathlete
Hi Slimmingmom,
I didn't see any disrespect or desire to change you in Carolyn's post, but then I'm biased since I'm a vegan too and she's my big sister. I think she was just explaining why vegans can come off as adamant about their beliefs, but she's not telling you what you should do. Of course, you have your views and you are free to do as you please. Thank God that we have these freedoms.
A part of me wants this thread to just die already because it's clear, yet again, that we are at an impasse, and a very hostile one at that. But, here I am again! ;-)
I want to share that I actually saw the movie last night and thought it was terrible. Very preachy and just badly made. It really should have been a documentary, it didn't work as fiction at all. So to anyone interested, I would recommend the book but NOT the movie.
I have a thought about this conflict and about the inability, on both sides, to "agree to disagree". Agreeing to disagree is easier said than done. It certainly is necessary in life otherwise you will be miserable, but sometimes it is not appropriate at all. Sometimes there is too much at stake. As an obvious example, a slave cannot agree to disagree with his/her master.
I want to be very clear that I DO agree that we have the choice to eat however we want. What I refuse to agree to disagree about is my belief that we have a responsibility to make informed decisions about what we eat. I think we live in a cynical time and people don't like to think too much about unpleasant things, but I believe that it is our duty to know how our decisions impact others, especially if the impact is negative. This applies to many aspects of life, not just our diets.
I just think that meat-eating people owe it to their "food" to know how it lived and how it died, how it's production affected the environment, etc. If, upon knowing this, you still want to eat meat, that's fine with me. I only think that this decision should be based upon the reality of the situation. Choosing to ignore or to remain ignorant to the reality of how we impact others is just irresponsible. I know I'll get attacked for saying this, but it's what my heart tells me is right. Sorry this is so long.
Amy
I didn't see any disrespect or desire to change you in Carolyn's post, but then I'm biased since I'm a vegan too and she's my big sister. I think she was just explaining why vegans can come off as adamant about their beliefs, but she's not telling you what you should do. Of course, you have your views and you are free to do as you please. Thank God that we have these freedoms.
A part of me wants this thread to just die already because it's clear, yet again, that we are at an impasse, and a very hostile one at that. But, here I am again! ;-)
I want to share that I actually saw the movie last night and thought it was terrible. Very preachy and just badly made. It really should have been a documentary, it didn't work as fiction at all. So to anyone interested, I would recommend the book but NOT the movie.
I have a thought about this conflict and about the inability, on both sides, to "agree to disagree". Agreeing to disagree is easier said than done. It certainly is necessary in life otherwise you will be miserable, but sometimes it is not appropriate at all. Sometimes there is too much at stake. As an obvious example, a slave cannot agree to disagree with his/her master.
I want to be very clear that I DO agree that we have the choice to eat however we want. What I refuse to agree to disagree about is my belief that we have a responsibility to make informed decisions about what we eat. I think we live in a cynical time and people don't like to think too much about unpleasant things, but I believe that it is our duty to know how our decisions impact others, especially if the impact is negative. This applies to many aspects of life, not just our diets.
I just think that meat-eating people owe it to their "food" to know how it lived and how it died, how it's production affected the environment, etc. If, upon knowing this, you still want to eat meat, that's fine with me. I only think that this decision should be based upon the reality of the situation. Choosing to ignore or to remain ignorant to the reality of how we impact others is just irresponsible. I know I'll get attacked for saying this, but it's what my heart tells me is right. Sorry this is so long.
Amy
kathryn
Cathlete
>" Dogs have a large APPENDIX because
>they use theirs. Humans have very little use for a APPENDIX,
>if any."
I was curious about this statement (if true, it would point to the possibility of the appendix being linked to assistance with the digestion of raw meat) so I contacted my vet. According to her, animals don't have appendixes. (THAT is why the source of information---especially information that doesn't seem to be supported by other sources---is important. An erroneous statement like this--a lie, in fact--makes every bit of information---or misinformation--on this web site suspect).
>they use theirs. Humans have very little use for a APPENDIX,
>if any."
I was curious about this statement (if true, it would point to the possibility of the appendix being linked to assistance with the digestion of raw meat) so I contacted my vet. According to her, animals don't have appendixes. (THAT is why the source of information---especially information that doesn't seem to be supported by other sources---is important. An erroneous statement like this--a lie, in fact--makes every bit of information---or misinformation--on this web site suspect).
kathryn
Cathlete
>>I don't believe that animals are equals.
I don't think anyone here believes that animals and humans are equals (do YOU think that one should only treat ones equals with compassion and understanding?) They are, however, living beings, with the ability to feel pain, and the desire to live. There is no way to really understand how much they feel and think, so why not give them the benefit of the doubt. Surely as someone who has stayed up with mother cows as they calf, you have observed yourself the close bond between mother and baby.
This is definitely an area where some people will never change their minds. I certainly won't, nor am I trying to convert the 'unconvertible" (though Howard Lyman, a former cattle rancher, might at one time have said that he would never give up meat), just giving information to those who may feel ready to make a different choice.
(By the way, neither I, nor my family, nor anyone close to me is making any money or profit from people changing to a plant-based diet.)
I don't think anyone here believes that animals and humans are equals (do YOU think that one should only treat ones equals with compassion and understanding?) They are, however, living beings, with the ability to feel pain, and the desire to live. There is no way to really understand how much they feel and think, so why not give them the benefit of the doubt. Surely as someone who has stayed up with mother cows as they calf, you have observed yourself the close bond between mother and baby.
This is definitely an area where some people will never change their minds. I certainly won't, nor am I trying to convert the 'unconvertible" (though Howard Lyman, a former cattle rancher, might at one time have said that he would never give up meat), just giving information to those who may feel ready to make a different choice.
(By the way, neither I, nor my family, nor anyone close to me is making any money or profit from people changing to a plant-based diet.)
pixiesis
Cathlete
Surely
>as someone who has stayed up with mother cows as they calf,
>you have observed yourself the close bond between mother and
>baby.
This actually hurts my brain. How can a person be so concerned for the animals at the beginning of their lives and yet care nothing about how brutally the lives of the SAME animals end? How can you hold the same two feelings at the same time? This is cognitive dissonance. Does not compute...are they living beings deserving of compassion at birth and somehow become our "unequals", a product, at death?
Amy
>as someone who has stayed up with mother cows as they calf,
>you have observed yourself the close bond between mother and
>baby.
This actually hurts my brain. How can a person be so concerned for the animals at the beginning of their lives and yet care nothing about how brutally the lives of the SAME animals end? How can you hold the same two feelings at the same time? This is cognitive dissonance. Does not compute...are they living beings deserving of compassion at birth and somehow become our "unequals", a product, at death?
Amy
slimmingmom
Cathlete
>Hi Slimmingmom,
>
>
>I want to be very clear that I DO agree that we have the
>choice to eat however we want. What I refuse to agree to
>disagree about is my belief that we have a responsibility to
>make informed decisions about what we eat. I think we live in
>a cynical time and people don't like to think too much about
>unpleasant things, but I believe that it is our duty to know
>how our decisions impact others, especially if the impact is
>negative. This applies to many aspects of life, not just our
>diets.
>
>I just think that meat-eating people owe it to their "food" to
>know how it lived and how it died, how it's production
>affected the environment, etc. If, upon knowing this, you
>still want to eat meat, that's fine with me. I only think
>that this decision should be based upon the reality of the
>situation. Choosing to ignore or to remain ignorant to the
>reality of how we impact others is just irresponsible. I know
>I'll get attacked for saying this, but it's what my heart
>tells me is right. Sorry this is so long.
>
>Amy
>
It's taken me a little bit to respond to this, because I don't want to argue, or hurt feelings.
As a vegan I think that your stance in your last paragraph is very responsible. And I think that you are right, if a person is searching for how they want to eat, they should make an informed choice. And I think it is much more fair for you to say that to a person that eats meat than to tell us it's wrong (which I'm not saying you did) See for someone like myself who has seen every aspect of that process, I know I have made an informed choice. And as someone who has seen it first hand from start to finish, I am ahead of even some vegans who are only going by what they read. (Which can be very bias.)
But it is very frustrating for someone like me or the other Cattle rancher (can't remember her name sorry) when people make assumptions and have these facts thrown at them by someone who is on a crusaide to end the killing of animals. Much of the time the information is incorrect or warped or exagerated. (Again, not saying you said this)
But like you said, the agree to disagree doesn't really work in this situation . But what else can we do when they are both views that are right in thier own way. So we will leave it at a friendly you do your thing I'll do mine. Thank you. And I apologize if I came off as harsh in any way...this was never my intention.
>
>
>I want to be very clear that I DO agree that we have the
>choice to eat however we want. What I refuse to agree to
>disagree about is my belief that we have a responsibility to
>make informed decisions about what we eat. I think we live in
>a cynical time and people don't like to think too much about
>unpleasant things, but I believe that it is our duty to know
>how our decisions impact others, especially if the impact is
>negative. This applies to many aspects of life, not just our
>diets.
>
>I just think that meat-eating people owe it to their "food" to
>know how it lived and how it died, how it's production
>affected the environment, etc. If, upon knowing this, you
>still want to eat meat, that's fine with me. I only think
>that this decision should be based upon the reality of the
>situation. Choosing to ignore or to remain ignorant to the
>reality of how we impact others is just irresponsible. I know
>I'll get attacked for saying this, but it's what my heart
>tells me is right. Sorry this is so long.
>
>Amy
>
It's taken me a little bit to respond to this, because I don't want to argue, or hurt feelings.
As a vegan I think that your stance in your last paragraph is very responsible. And I think that you are right, if a person is searching for how they want to eat, they should make an informed choice. And I think it is much more fair for you to say that to a person that eats meat than to tell us it's wrong (which I'm not saying you did) See for someone like myself who has seen every aspect of that process, I know I have made an informed choice. And as someone who has seen it first hand from start to finish, I am ahead of even some vegans who are only going by what they read. (Which can be very bias.)
But it is very frustrating for someone like me or the other Cattle rancher (can't remember her name sorry) when people make assumptions and have these facts thrown at them by someone who is on a crusaide to end the killing of animals. Much of the time the information is incorrect or warped or exagerated. (Again, not saying you said this)
But like you said, the agree to disagree doesn't really work in this situation . But what else can we do when they are both views that are right in thier own way. So we will leave it at a friendly you do your thing I'll do mine. Thank you. And I apologize if I came off as harsh in any way...this was never my intention.
pixiesis
Cathlete
Slimmingmom,
I must have missed your response before. I hear and appreciate everything you said, and agree that people can gather information to suit their own biases, so it's not always easy to get "the facts". I have certainly heard my fair share of silly, unrealistic, and just wrong arguments in favor of veganism and animal rights. You are someone who has made an informed decision, and I think that you are a minority. I think most people have their heads in the sand when it comes to this issue. I like you're thought at leaving this "friendly". Like you, it is not my intension be harsh. It is something I feel very passionate about and that I like to share my thoughts on, but I don't wish to convert the world. Thanks again for your thoughtful response.
Amy
I must have missed your response before. I hear and appreciate everything you said, and agree that people can gather information to suit their own biases, so it's not always easy to get "the facts". I have certainly heard my fair share of silly, unrealistic, and just wrong arguments in favor of veganism and animal rights. You are someone who has made an informed decision, and I think that you are a minority. I think most people have their heads in the sand when it comes to this issue. I like you're thought at leaving this "friendly". Like you, it is not my intension be harsh. It is something I feel very passionate about and that I like to share my thoughts on, but I don't wish to convert the world. Thanks again for your thoughtful response.
Amy