Clinton or Obama

I maybe wrong but I really don't think for the vast majority of Americans gender or race has anything to do with their preference.

I do agree that there will always be some knuckleheads who will not vote for a woman and I do think there are still even more knuckleheads who will not vote for an African American or a person of color, male or female. I think it is very sad that someone showed up at a Clinton rally with a sign saying "Iron my shirts", but I also find it sad that in states like West Virginia and Kentucky, the exit polls said that for 1/4 of the voters race played a role and that 80% of those voted for Sen. Clinton. We already know if 25 % admitted to that, there is an even larger number who thinks the same way but won't admit it.

That being said, I think Hillary Clinton went into this race with an enormous advantage of name recognition and the fundraising and political machine of Bill Clinton behind her. I do believe, that Sen. Clinton would have won the nomination against ALL of her male competition, if Sen. Obama hadn't entered the race and struck a cord with a lot of voters. I think it is a phenomenal American story that this guy came out of nowhere, with no name recognition, in fact, a name like Barack Obama and won a (narrow) victory over one of the most known names in Democratic politics. I think both candidates, Sen. Clinton and Sen. Obama are brilliant, as were the majority of the other contenders, I could have supported any of them, well, with one or two exceptions.

In fact, I would have even supported Sen. McCain, the long-time senator from my home state who I always respected until a few months ago. What I hear from him now makes me cringe and the prospect of him getting elected, whoa, Canada or Australia here I come. I just don't think we can afford another stubborn, temper tantrum throwing, foot stumping, narrow-minded, it is my way or the highway kind of leadership. America likes to call itself the greatest nation on earth, but we can't go it alone and we need other nations to cooperate with us. Ronald Reagan understood it and he has made an undeniable impact on this country and many other nations, putting America in a position of moral leadership which has been squandered over the past 7 years by our current administration.

Leadership is not achieved by threatening and showing a superiority demeanor. Just ask yourself at your work, who are you willing to give more to, the one who constantly throws his/her superiority in your face or someone who realizes great things can only be achieved TOGETHER. I had a couple of superiors who thought they needed to throw their status or superiority in my face and put their foot down, on the surface I would do what they asked me to do, BUT any chance I get I would double cross them. I think great leadership is someone who can find common ground, work on win-win outcomes with the end result in mind without giving up their principles.

All of that being said, I like and admire Hillary Clinton, always have. As much as I was rooting for her in the beginning, I think she has surrounded herself with the wrong people in this campaign and they didn't have a plan B, or plan B wasn't executed fast enough to adjust. I hated how she was pivoting around, changing her message, attacking her oponent, coming up with fuzzy math. This is where she lost me.

This is just my opinion, I understand and respect that someone else could look at the same and come to a different conclusion. I just truly hope that people will realize that there is a lot more that unites us than divides us, that the partisan bickering HAS to stop and we all unite for the sake of the generations that come after us.
 
And WHAT experience does Hillary have? A senator who has done nothing for NY! I am a republican, but I hope Obama has the nomination. Until it is official, you never know, the Clinton machine is EVIL!
Ann Marie
 
Clinton

*♥´¨)
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(¸.•♥´ (¸ ;.♥•Jennie•♥


Smoke free since: 2/05/08
 
Why support the lesser evil? Cthulu 2008}( }( }( .

Honestly I don't like any of them. I'll probably pull the lever for McCain, but I won't give him any money or campaign for him. If I was forced to choose a Democrat, I would have preferred Hillary over Obama, but it looks like he's got the nomination and probably the election.

Now the question before me is how is my lower/middle class family going to survive all the tax increases:-( ?

Maggie
Just a red state girl living in blue state hell.
 
You worry about the tax increases????? Worry about $ 5 to 6 a gallon of gas and how it effects what we pay for groceries and everything else, dropping home prices and then the money we spend for a senseless civil war in Iraq. According to VP Cheney oil will pay for it, that sure worked NOT! As of this point $ 700 billion and more than 4,000 lives lost. Think about that before you pull the lever for the war monger John McCain.
 
I despise extremism (liberal or conservative) but have voted Democrat my whole life, trying to stick with moderates. Oddly, after 8 years of watching my country be destroyed by greedy Republican oil men who, evidently, cared only about themselves and their friends, I was ready to vote Republican - as long as Giuliani was The Republican. I felt he could have fixed so much that's wrong with this country but, I think, for myriad reasons, he didn't want to go the distance. I never trusted Hillary ("Hail of gunfire" anyone?) and felt four years of her would be another four years of lies and focus on her ho-of-a-husband's scandlous (sp?) doings. This country is headed down the toilet and the descent has to be stopped NOW so we really don't have time for that crap (which is why I DON'T want her as a running mate, with she and her husband getting in Obama's way and creating behind-the-scenes trouble). I think McCain is a decent man (which, I promise, really counts with me); he doesn't lie so I find him, personally, credible. However, he has his head up his bum if he thinks we ever belonged in Iraq (I served in the Persian Gulf during the first Gulf War so I have some first hand knowledge), chasing after Sadaam with a full-fledged military when we should have used our special forces to get Osama, instead. On that note, I'm amazed how many Americans STILL think Sadaam Hussein and Osama bin Laden have ever had anything to do with one another and that, somehow, by killing one we've hurt the other. Unbelievable. Our country has been on credit forever and the bill is finally coming due, only now, nobody can afford to pay (literally and metaphorically). If McCain gets in we'll be at war with Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran and North Korea. We can't afford the big messes we're already involved in. If our leaders get us in any more messes our country is surely doomed. Obama, I really don't know about him either and I wonder why so many of my African-American co-workers seem wary of him. Nobody seems to 100% support anyone. Will Obama be good? I don't know. But I DO know I want out of all wars (and the insane spending accompanying them and sending this nation into a RAPID decline) and I don't want someone in there whom I already know to be a liar. For me, Obama gets my vote... by default, unfortunately. But if McCain wins, I'll pray hard for the parents of draft-age sons; and thank God I'm childless.
 
>I also think Obama speaks beautifully, I just wish he would
>SAY something. The man is brilliant at completely avoiding
>direct answers to any question. On an amusing note, my
>friend's 92 year old Korean grandmother is thoroughly
>convinced he's the AntiChrist.
>
>Laurie, If McCain wins I may just join you in Canada! It's
>getting to the point where I'm not sure if I'll ever be proud
>to be American again. What happened to us? :-(

I agree about the pride issue. Abu Gharib broke my heart. Remember when Americans used to stand for right? My late mother was World War II era and I heard first hand about the way this country pulled together, out of depression, when attacked at Pearl Harbor. We are not that country anymore. In less than 50 years, look how low we've sunk. My God.
 
>Put this in perspective. Suppose you had to choose between two
>candidates, one had spent 20 years in Congress plus had
>considerable other relevant experience and the other of whom
>had about half a dozen years in the Illinois state legislature
>and 2 years in Congress. Which one do you think would make a
>better President?
>
>If your choice is # 1, congratulations, you just picked James
>Buchanan (one of the worst presidents EVER) over Abraham
>Lincoln. 'nuff said!
>
>
Excellent point.

And I love your little pooch. Sorry to get off track but I'm a pet person :)
 
Siren Song Woman,

I love your persepective of moderation and on the war.

I dont understand why in the civilized world we still need war. People die on both sides in a war. Humongous money is spent when there are so many issues that need funds - AIDS cure, poverty, global warming.

The Iraq war has sent most of the world into an economic tizzy. When fuel prices spiral, inflation goes trough the roof. All goods need to be distributed - that needs fuel - so everything becomes expensive.

~* Vrinda *~
 
SirenSong,

The draft might actually do more good than harm. The war would suddenly become the front burner and the heat would be on our politicians to end it if there was a draft or if they were even thinking about it. Of course we shouldn't allow deferments for politicians kids, If the British can send a prince then why not?

Currently it is being fought by volunteers who represent a small slice of our population. If that sampling was more universal and more people owned a portion of the war (besides having to pay for it) I think there would be a lot more focus on ending it

It's amazing that for 8 years Clinton was a "draft dodger", but we allowed Bush, a "vet" from the Texas Air Guard and of course Dick "I used 5 deferments to dodge Viet Nam" Cheney to be our leaders. Oh well 1/20/09 is coming. I wonder how soon Cheney will go back to working for Halliburton? My Bad, he never stopped working for them.
 
"I wonder how soon Cheney will go back to working for Halliburton? My Bad, he never stopped working for them."


}( }( }(
 
I just want to congratulate everyone for having such a civilized political thread. I am impressed at how it's not descended into chaos and flaming. Excellent job, folks.

Also, kudos to Carola and Dave for some great posts.

Personally I voted for Obama in the primary, though Hillary is my senator here in NY. My husband might even vote for Obama over McCain, though he's a staunch Republican. (Even I'm not exactly sure why, but he doesn't care for McCain.) I am actually glad McCain is the choice rather than some of the other Republican dudes; he's not too bad, but still not my choice.

[font face="comic sans ms" font color=green]***Lainie***
fitness blog: http://fitnessfig.blogspot.com
http://bestsmileys.com/exercising/7.gif
"If you want to give God a good laugh, tell Her your plans."[/font]
 
I agree, Lainie. This is a great thread. And thanks to Carola for some great perspective. I'm personally doing a little happy dance this morning now that Obama is the presumptive Dem Candidate. :) It's the first time since Gore that I really believe in a candidate and will pull whole-heartedly for him.
 
I voted for Hillary in the primary. I think that once we have a female president, in four years we can vote for the best woman for the job.
 
I think many of us forget that not just ONE person runs the government. That is why we have Congress and that is why we all should vote. It seems easy to blame Bush, or Clinton or whoever, but in reality it is the goverment as a whole that makes the decisions that guide our lives. Bill Clinton or Ronald Reagan are not solely responsible for the good and George Bush isn't solely responsible for the bad.

Time will tell about Obama or McCain, but no matter I'm sure someone will find much to blame either of them for if they win the election in November.

It's the American way to whine and put blame on someone else. :-(
 
Yes, I am concerned about tax increases. I am concerned about everything that cuts into our income at this point. I am concerned about high gas prices and how they are causing the price of everything else to rise. (thanks biofuel) How is raising my families taxes going to help us live within our means? How is more money going out going to help?

As far as the war, somehow stupid and inept George Bush managed to hoodwink many intelligent and thoughtful Democrats into approving the war and then into funding it. You guys have had control of the house and the senate for over a year now. You could stop it all if you really wanted to. CONGRESS approves the funding, not Bush. And if McCain wins, which I doubt, the Democrat controlled congress could yank the funding on him too.

Our country is controlled by a system of checks and balances, not just one man, so McCain won't be able to do anything without the approval of the Democrat controlled congress.

Maggie
 
"There is no way on God's green earth I'm voting for McCain. That man scares the crap out of me."

Exactly! Actually I was scared throughout the Republican debates. During New Hampshire, when Ron Paul dared to mention the fact that U.S. foreign policy has in fact shaped how the world (including the Middle East) views us, he was attacked by every other candidate. They didn't even refute it, just laughed it off to drown him out. Well, Guiliani did offer his brilliant insight that terrorists do in fact hate us because they hate our freedom. Yeah...not the fact that we've set up some of the most despicable dictators and funded their wars. Or that extreme poverty has any influence on a person's support for extremists. I was blown away by the severe and willful ignorance on display. That kind of attitude is the reason we are where we are now, and in my opinion, we can't afford another 8 years of the same.
 
Definitely Obama. I truly believe he is this country's only hope. Hillary is done, she lost and she should concede and get behind Obama. If not, we may be looking at 4 years of John (George) McSame. God help us if that happens.
 
>I think many of us forget that not just ONE person runs the
>government.


True. And yet the reason we got in this mess to begin with was because we and everyone in government were told Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. It's The American Way to stand together when being attacked from outside. Trouble is, Congress and the people were LIED to. We went to war on a lie. A full-scale, all-out war because someone at the top just wanted to get a foothold in oil country. What did people think would happen if they elected a Texas oil man to run this country? I'm a political moron and even I saw it coming so why didn't everyone else? For the first four years George and his buddies were just praying for an excuse to take troops into the middle east and just take over, which is exactly what ordinary people there were afraid of (It's like those old westerns where a town is being terrorized by outlaws so the citizens pool their resources to hire badder guys to get rid of them - and they do. Then the badder guys take over and things are worse than ever. WE are the badder guys in this scenario). Somehow, after four lame years, around half the voters in this country voted for George AGAIN and he got his second chance. He may have wanted to just go home but his handlers were thrilled at having a second chance to get rich and gain power at the expense of all the rest of us. Then 9/11 happened and blaming it on Sadaam Hussein was so easy. The whole "weapons of mass destruction" thing was just insurance, in the event anyone pointed out that Osama and Sadaam are from separate tribes who've been at war with one another from the beginning of Islamic history and, thus, would be unlikely allies, even against us. Of course, now that they're over there and the people there who never trusted us -and now despise us as occupiers - are joining up with terrorist groups in massive numbers never imagined (something even they never thought they'd do) and are making life Hell for us and people all over the world, they're trying to keep us from seeing how jacked up the whole mess was from the beginning; shifting to "Oh, we're there for humanitarian reasons (which so many Americans ARE buying without asking "What about Darfur and...")." Congress agreed to this war because of a lie uttered from our president (fed to him by HIS handlers) and, thus, acted on good faith. They're not completely blameless because they should have suspected ulterior motives and not agreed to anything without concrete proof but, in the end, the American government still is a chain-of-command organization: It's the top guy who must accept responsibility for the actions of his subordinates. Bush is the top guy and this mess is on him. Period.

Here's a scary one for you: A few months back the subject of the Dixie Chicks Texas anti-GB rant came up in conversation at work. One of the nicest guys I know made a nasty remark and It came out he's a big GB supporter. I laughed because I thought he was joking (gas prices hadn't yet skyrocketed) so I asked "You're joking, right." "No. He's a great man." "You're kidding?" "No." "In what way is he a great man?" to which he replied "He got even with Those Guys for flying planes into our buildings." Again, he's a sweetheart of a guy but... as long as Americans are THAT ignorant about something as widely discussed as 9/11 and people with a thirst for vengeance AT ANY COST and no matter who it hurts are doing the electing what hope does this country have? We could have gotten Osama and all his henchmen a long time ago if we'd used special forces and not gone in with massive troops. Sadaam Hussein should have been a completely separate issue and hardly qualified as a top issue, in light of the FACTS of 9/11. Also, at some point soon we need to understand that the U.S.A. literally cannot afford to be the police of the world. As it is, we're a nation living on credit and everyone's in financial trouble. If we aren't solvent (Katrina, anyone?) how can we assist anyone else? Our borders are bleeding, we're in debt up to our ears, and we're involved in several never-ending, unwinable wars (more, if McCain gets in). And half of ordinary Americans still don't fully understand how the choice they make in November (based on racism, sexism, ellitism, whatever) will decide whether our nation SURVIVES at all. We all must put aside petty nitpicky issues (everything's nitpicky in comparison) to save ourselves NOW.

Here's something to think about as you drift off to sleep: One day I was discussing the topic of illegal aliens with my Russian (naturalized) sister-in-law and she mentioned something about Russian illegal aliens HERE. I was stunned. "How are they getting here?" I asked. She replied "Through Mexico." If Russian illegals are coming into the United States through Mexico don't you wonder who else is, and why they're coming, and what they're planning? We don't even know where they are or who they are and probably won't, until the next 9/11. 9/11 should have changed everything but our borders are still unsecured. We're trying to help everybody and we don't even know who WE are. Is this a nation which needs to wake up or what?
 

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