Anti-Gay Sentiment Surprise. An "Ugh" rant.

[pixiesis]

Amen, A-jock! What a great comparison! That awful, backward, child-abusing FLDS sect has resumed its crimes against those unfortunate enough to be born within their prisons/compounds. And yet! The government continues to interfere in the private lives of peaceful, contenting adults. Why oh why oh why?

 

[workoutaholic]

I understand that this is not a popular belief among this thread (or at least it doesn't seem to be), but I am a Bible-believing Christian, and just felt the need to post. The number one command from God in the Bible is to love God, and then love your neighbor as you would love yourself. Christians who take it upon themselves to hate others who we believe are engaged in sin (and I know most people do not believe it is sin), or go after them, or harp and harp on certain sins do not understand what Christ tells us, or what his life was about.

There is no reason to go after someone who we believe has committed a sin, b/c as Christ has told us, we have ALL committed sin against him (again I know a lot of you are rolling your eyes). We are not the judges, the executioners, and all that stuff. As a Christian, we are supposed to be concerned with loving that person and helping to direct (not push/threaten/etc.) him/her to a relationship with Jesus, but never to attack, accuse, and think that we are better than anyone else. Christians keep getting this wrong over and over, and maybe they really aren't Christians at all.

Also, most of us do question what we are taught. I actually wasn't raised in a religious environment at all. After reading, learning, and answering, I decided to become a Christian about 9 years ago. However, I doubt myself all the time because I'm human. I doubt myself every time I hear someone say I am ignorant, ridiculous, that science has proved the Bible wrong, the Bible has contradictions, etc. I do not think the Bible says we are damned if we doubt. So I read books like Bones of Contention, and then I also read arguments against Christ/the Bible. But I have not been convinced yet that it isn't true. So I just wanted to give you guys a different picture.

Thanks, and I respect all of you.

Nyx

 

[LaughingWater]

I do believe it's a choice. As a Bible believing Christian, I believe engaging in gay sexual acts is a sin, and therefore is a choice. I'm not pointing any fingers, as I am not without sin--just trying to explain why I believe it's a choice.

But do you believe being heterosexual is a choice? Is your attraction to men natural...innate...or do you choose to be attracted to men?

 

[kathryn]

On choice: it is a lifestyle choice to hang out in gay bathhouses having sex with strangers and go to clubs where you can watch a guy getting fisted vs. going out on dates and becoming involved in a committed relationship. It is not a lifestyle choice to be attracted to whatever sex one is attracted to.

I think perhaps that often those who think being gay is a sin only envision the first kind of gay lifestyle, thinking of being 'gay'' not as what someone is, but as what someone does.

 

[pixiesis]

Nyx, you and Fitlulu both said you are "Bible-believing Christians". Can you explain this term? Thanks!

Nyx, thank you for describing your faith. I have another question, you talk about doubt, and how you don't feel that it's a sin for you to doubt. I agree! I think doubt is essential to reason, which is essential to our humanity.

In that case, do you ever doubt some of the specifics of the Bible (homosexuality being a sin being a huge specific, along with some other specifics that Christians have long discarded--rules pertaining to diet, agriculture, slavery, seemingly minor sins punishable by death, etc)? If someone affirms the general, broad tenets of the Bible and rejects certain notions, is this sinful?

Christian or not, we all have to concede that none of us knows any absolute, ultimate truths. Given this, isn't it better to err on the side of acceptance and love rather than judgment and condemnation, certainly in cases where no one harms another? This kind of "wager" seems consistent with the main tenets of Christianity, to me anyway.

 

[fitlulu]

Nyx--beautifully said.

LaughingWater--my attraction to men is natural, but I can admit that I have looked at other women before and have been attracted to them. I know that doesn't make me gay, but I know tendencies are there and that is natural too.


kathryn--I treat everybody the same. In thinking about what a gay person "does" vs. "is", I'm only saying that I believe the act of homosexuality is the sin. To "hang out in gay bathhouses having sex with strangers and go to clubs where you can watch a guy getting fisted" is not the only vision I have of a homosexual, as I know several gay families. And, there are a lot of heterosexual practices out there that are just as unappealling and sinful.

pixiesis--as a Bible believing Christian, I believe the Bible is the word of God, and doesn't change with the times. I look to the Bible for instruction on how to live my life. As far as "isn't it better to err on the side of acceptance and love rather than judgment and condemnation" that's pretty close to what I've been saying. I may not approve of the gay lifestyle (yes I'm still calling it that), but I do still love the person and do not pass any judgment or condemnation on anybody. I am no better than anybody else.

 

[autumn]

LaughingWater ~ Did the woman seem embarrassed she had used that awful word when you told her your brother is gay? How does your daughter feel about her friend using a deragotory name to describe homosexuals?

 

[rjroubi]

It still amazes me how people use their interpretations of the Bible to support their bigotry. It's no wonder everyone still doesn't have equal rights under the law.

I agree with A-Jock, the world is indeed an absurd and tiresome place.

 

[pixiesis]

pixiesis--as a Bible believing Christian, I believe the Bible is the word of God, and doesn't change with the times. I look to the Bible for instruction on how to live my life. As far as "isn't it better to err on the side of acceptance and love rather than judgment and condemnation" that's pretty close to what I've been saying. I may not approve of the gay lifestyle (yes I'm still calling it that), but I do still love the person and do not pass any judgment or condemnation on anybody. I am no better than anybody else.

Thanks for the explanation fitlulu. Do you believe in every word of both the Old and the New Testament?

And I have to disagree. Labeling homosexuality a sin is both a judgment and a condemnation. Ask any gay person and they will tell you this. Because you still "love" them doesn't really change the reality of things. I don't think a gay person could accept this "love" anyway, knowing that they are loved in spite of who they are, rather than because of who they are.

 

[Gayle]

And I have to disagree. Labeling homosexuality a sin is both a judgment and a condemnation. Ask any gay person and they will tell you this. Because you still "love" them doesn't really change the reality of things. I don't think a gay person could accept this "love" anyway, knowing that they are loved in spite of who they are, rather than because of who they are.

Amy - When I grow up, I want to be as articulate as you.

 

[LaughingWater]

LaughingWater--my attraction to men is natural, but I can admit that I have looked at other women before and have been attracted to them. I know that doesn't make me gay, but I know tendencies are there and that is natural too.

So you think that one man being attracted to another man can be considered natural?

I'm not trying to bust your butt or anything. I'm truly curious as to how you view homosexuality. For example, some see it as faulty wiring, a disease of some sort. Others think we all have certain tendencies, but some have better luck suppressing these feelings than others.

Autumn, the mom didn't seem embarrassed, but I could be wrong. She scowled a bit, and then we changed the subject. My daughter didn't hear the entire conversation, but we discussed it on the way home in the car, and we both feel the same way: We like this family a lot and hope this doesn't become an issue.

 

[steppin out]

Let me start by saying I have not read ALL of the posts on this thread, but wanted to put in my two cents.

When I was a teenager (I'm 40 now), the idea of gay people seemed strange to me and made me feel uncomfortable. As I "grew up", I have come to realize that sexual preferences don't matter, it is how I feel about the person AS a person. Just because people are more used to men and women being "together" than two people of the same sex doesn't make that the only option. If someone is happier with someone of their own gender, that is more important!

I work with two homosexuals (one guy and one lady). When we have company functions, they each bring their partner the same way a married person would bring their spouse. People where I work seem to all be OK with that too - and I think it is great!

Who are we to judge?

 

[fitlulu]

pixiesis--yes I believe both the Old and New Testament. If you have a specific question about it, please PM me, because I won't be replying to this thread again.

LaughingWater--I don't think it's faulty wiring, or a disease of some sort.

I only replied to this thread because I took offense at Christians being called ignorant. We are not ignorant--trust me, there are plenty of people out there always trying to tell us why we are wrong, ignorant, bigots, etc. Believe it or not, some of my views on this subject have evolved over time (I know that must make some think I was REALLY a Neanderthal!) I'm hoping at this point to agree to disagree, and just let this go.

 

[LaughingWater]

Thanks, Lulu. Again, I don't mean to hammer at you. I'm simply trying to figure out how you see things.

I knew one guy who fell into the latter category of my two examples. He was a devout Catholic and, in my opinion, drove himself nuts trying to avoid committing all kinds of "sin" ~ that's a whole different thread .

Anywho, he was of the opinion that it's all natural but should be suppressed. I found that interesting (and actually a small improvement over those who think it's a psychiatric disease).

 

[LauraMax]

I don't think any of us who support gay rights as "faulty wiring" or a "disease." I think we see it as normal & OK.

Just out of curiosity, those of you who state that you don't support homosexuals b/c the bible says it's a sin, who wrote the bible? God didn't write the bible. Jesus didn't write the bible. So who?

If your answer is: a number of aging old men who've either never had sex, or had it even though God says they shouldn't, do you think those men can not only give you valid opinions re. what's right & wrong when it comes to sexuality, but also instruct you on what's right & wrong when it comes to sexuality?

Yeah I know, God supposedly spoke through them. He supposedly speaks through Pat Robertson & Jerry Falwell too.

See, this has always been my problem when it comes to religion. While I think religious institutions have done a lot of good in this world, I also think they've done irreparable harm just b/c a bunch of repressed old men put their opinions in writing, all in the name of God.

 

[Liann]

Lol Laura, a bunch of celibate priests didn't write the Bible! Most of the authors were married with TONS of children. And heck, several of them had more than one wife so they were definitely sexual! Not defending just getting a good giggle out of the repressed writer's image.

 

[LaughingWater]

Anyone remember Ted Haggard?

When that story broke, at first it seemed easy to think, "Ha! Hypocrite!" However, I have a lot of sympathy for him. It's obvious he's gay, yet because of his religious beliefs and the life he chose, he's forced to live as a straight man.

If you're straight, can you imagine being forced to live as a gay person? Going to counseling to "fix" your attraction to the opposite sex? What a nightmare.

 

[LauraMax]

Lol Laura, a bunch of celibate priests didn't write the Bible! Most of the authors were married with TONS of children. And heck, several of them had more than one wife so they were definitely sexual! Not defending just getting a good giggle out of the repressed writer's image.

Ha! You cannot convince me Paul wasn't repressed. I don't know much about his personal life, but that dude sure did hate women!

So Liann, what you're saying is, it was OK for those men to have more than one wife & a ton of kids, but it's not anymore, right? I guess that "new rule" came with the new testament? Therefore, it was OK at one point, but not at another point?

There are more inconsistencies in the bible than there are in the US constitution, & that's saying an awful lot.

 

[LauraMax]

Anyone remember Ted Haggard?

When that story broke, at first it seemed easy to think, "Ha! Hypocrite!" However, I have a lot of sympathy for him. It's obvious he's gay, yet because of his religious beliefs and the life he chose, he's forced to live as a straight man.

If you're straight, can you imagine being forced to live as a gay person? Going to counseling to "fix" your attraction to the opposite sex? What a nightmare.

There's a very interesting documentary running on HBO this month called "Ougraged," about a bunch of conservative politicians who're gay & insist on denying it, regardless of all the documentation & witnesses to the contrary. Very interesting TV viewing. I can't say I feel sorry for them b/c their public behavior vs. their private behavior is disgusting. But quite an eye opener.

 

[Liann]

Uhm, no I'm not defending any of it. I think the bible especially the Old Testament is kind of a mess - at least in the way it is sometimes interpreted. I have a really hard time respecting most of the "Great Men of the Bible". Their home lives were a disaster and most of them made Clinton look like a moral paragon. Trust me, I have no defense for any of it. Just had to laugh thinking of some of the writers like Abraham, Solomon, David etc... and then the celibate writer reference.