STS & NROL4W

[Diane15]

For those who are familiar with or have read either of the New Rules of Lifting books, I am wondering what are your thoughts on doing the STS rotation with the cardio Cathe has posted? I’ve been reading the author’s ideas about building muscle & that too much or intense cardio diminishes the amount of muscle one can build, & since STS is designed to maximize muscle building I’m wondering if doing Cathe’s suggested cardio may be counterproductive. I really want to see how effective the STS program will be for building muscle & wonder if it may be better to do less intense cardio. Any thoughts?

TIA,
Diane

 

[chefkate]

I've never readthe book, but.....

Personally, after years of doing hour-long cardio sessions I'm becoming a big fan of short and sweet.

I've been doing 20 min of HIIT on my versaclimber and I love it!
Or if I'm doing 30-40 of Cathe cardio I can REALLY put my all into it knowing I don't have to make it 60+ minutes.

My scale has NOT gone up as a result of cutting my cardio - quite the opposite. I had a baby 3.5 months ago and I am below my pre-pregnancy weight.

Hope you find something that works for you!

 

[Runcrazy]

I’m not familiar with the book you mentioned, but I know for me personally (and years of experimenting) what matters is having enough HIIT. Prior to starting STS, I had been doing four day splits (about 30 minutes each) combining two 30 minute HIIT on two of those weight days and then two more 50-60 minute cardio sessions and still have one full day of rest. I usually make at least one of those longer sessions interval spinning and one steady state cardio. (It doesn’t mean they are all high impact!) That’s about the right amount of cardio for me. Less then that I don’t see any changes, much more than that (consistently) is counterproductive. But sometimes I do feel like doing more cardio - it’s when I do excessive cardio week after week that my results diminish. (I usually do more cardio after I’ve been eating bad!)

From what I looked at in the rotations Cathe has mapped out, it’s about the right amount, at least for me. But I’ll probably tweak it here and there. I think for the most part you have to experiment.

Jo

 

[carres1973]

For those who are familiar with or have read either of the New Rules of Lifting books, I am wondering what are your thoughts on doing the STS rotation with the cardio Cathe has posted? I’ve been reading the author’s ideas about building muscle & that too much or intense cardio diminishes the amount of muscle one can build, & since STS is designed to maximize muscle building I’m wondering if doing Cathe’s suggested cardio may be counterproductive. I really want to see how effective the STS program will be for building muscle & wonder if it may be better to do less intense cardio. Any thoughts?

TIA,
Diane

Diane,

I really enjoy the NROL books and am currently doing the rotation described in the book while waiting to start STS. In the rotations, you do cardio starting with the Stage 2 workouts. The cardio prescribed to start with Stage 2 is interval training. That is also the majority of what Cathe suggests for adding cardio with STS. IIRC, the book specifically mentions LONG steady state sessions (i.e. walking on the treadmill at 3.5 mph) as not being necessary for fat loss. This is one of those situations where you have to find what works for you. If you know longer sessions work and you haven't seen any decrease in strength doing then, I would think you could keep doing that. A lot of people have found that 20-30 minutes of true HIIT burns the same amount of calories as 60 minutes of steady state. I believe HIIT has also been shown to improve cardiovascular strength and endurance. I know for me, doing Cardio Coach modified HIIT workouts have vastly improved my cardiovascular endurance. I think that is the point NROL4W is trying to make - you don't need the long cardio sessions to see results. Good luck with finding what works best for you!

Carrie

 

[SirenSongWoman]

I'm not doing STS they way it's designed for a different reason. Both Lou Schuler and Alwyn Cosgrove (authors of The New Rules), as well as virtually all the writers over at FigureAthlete.com (and many at T-Nation) have cited studies that indicate Full Body workouts are infinitely better for fat loss than splits. In Cosgrove's article "Hacking Your Strength Training" (T-Nation.com) he cited a study that indicated working muscle groups three times per week (using far fewer exercises) vs. once per week (as in the 3-day split) resulted in 62% greater strength gains. I posted about this over on the STS board. I've had my greatest success ever since switching from a 3-day split to full body workouts (after pre-ordering STS...) and I just can't go back. Thus, I'm looking to take the STS workouts and turn them into full body workouts. I know this is not what Cathe intended and I've really agonized over this. But the studies are pretty definitive and, after several years of trial and error, I know what my body responds best to now. But, in the end, I doubt there's much in STS I won't use. The moves are tough (I'm sore from all the 1rm testing... those plastic plate moves... and I have, indeed, been lifting way too light!) and I feel I can take the workouts as presented and combine them to create many new, innovative, and interesting ways to get what I need. I even plan on working my favorite other workouts into my rotation (Muscle Max, AOS Providence, Amy Bento).

I was wondering if anyone here is planning on doing likewise? I won't exactly be freestyling-it but will definitely be approaching STS differently, and I think I'm going to get great results doing this. Anyone?

 

[Havingfun]

research

Hi,

I've done a variety of different weight lifting techniques over the last several years, and always integrated 3-4 days of varied cardio. I have all of the muscle that I want and my body fat is very low. Honestly, I think it has more to do with consistent diet and training than anything else. Within that consistency, I change my training program and eating habits every 3-4 months to shock my body.

More importantly, I think that you have to be an educated consumer of all of this training specific research (or any research for that matter) and question how big the test group was, what body type did they have, what was their fitness level to begin with, how old were they, etc. etc. It is very difficult to generalize (apply to the general population) research results unless test groups are large, samples are random, and/ or the results have been obtained numerous times with different test groups, plus a host of other research specific criteria. After getting my doctorate a few years ago I realized one thing. There is always research to support anyone's perspective and viewpoint about anything. It is important to keep that in mind as you decide what is right for you.

Tracy

 

[SET]

For those who are familiar with or have read either of the New Rules of Lifting books, I am wondering what are your thoughts on doing the STS rotation with the cardio Cathe has posted? I’ve been reading the author’s ideas about building muscle & that too much or intense cardio diminishes the amount of muscle one can build, & since STS is designed to maximize muscle building I’m wondering if doing Cathe’s suggested cardio may be counterproductive. I really want to see how effective the STS program will be for building muscle & wonder if it may be better to do less intense cardio. Any thoughts?

TIA,
Diane

I'm reading the NROL4W right now (about half way through). I think the authors make a good point about cardio, and I wondered exactly the same thing -- whether Cathe's suggested cardio rotation is too much. Since STS is a stand alone program, I don't plan to follow Cathe's cardio suggestions and instead will do two 30 minute high-intensity interval workouts a week, plus maybe a longer steady state workout (mainly because I'm addicted to steady state; hopefully this won't hurt my results!). Thanks for asking an excellent and timely question -- I'll be very interested in hearing everyone's opinions!

 

[jansherman]

Stacey,

I agree completely with your post, and I am going to do exactly what you're doing. Through trial and error many times over, I've found that full body and HIIT are the things that my body responds to best. When I feel like one area needs extra work, I put in some extra exercises for that area at the end of my full body workout.

That's one of the many benefits that we all gain from this forum and all the reading we do on fitness - it gives us the knowledge to experiment and find what works for us, with the knowledge that we don't have to follow anyone or anything exactly.

 

[petramom]

More importantly, I think that you have to be an educated consumer of all of this training specific research (or any research for that matter) and question how big the test group was, what body type did they have, what was their fitness level to begin with, how old were they, etc. etc. It is very difficult to generalize (apply to the general population) research results unless test groups are large, samples are random, and/ or the results have been obtained numerous times with different test groups, plus a host of other research specific criteria. After getting my doctorate a few years ago I realized one thing. There is always research to support anyone's perspective and viewpoint about anything. It is important to keep that in mind as you decide what is right for you.

Tracy[/QUOTE]

Well said, Tracy.

 

[kathryn]

It depends on what your goals are.

I'm sure Cosgrove's advice is directed towards those who want MAXIMUM MUSCLE GROWTH.

I personally want fat burning, and strength, and to use weight training to burn calories and keep me fit, functional and fitting in my jeans! I do NOT want maximum growth, so I wouldn't avoid cardio.

 

[jansherman]

Actually, the things I've seen from Cosgrove promotes major fat burning. I haven't seen him say to avoid cardio, he just advocates doing less steady state, long cardio and replacing it with shorter, higher intensity sessions. His Afterburn program is all about major fat loss, while lifting "heavy" weights (depending on what is heavy for you for certain exercises.

 

[SirenSongWoman]

I've actually had great results alternating Cardio Coach HIIT on treadmill with short, super fast-paced (20 minute) runs (per Chad Waterbury, a neurophysiologist who knows his stuff). I'm obsessed with continuing/accelerating the already great results I've been getting very recently by cleaning up my diet, doing 3 body workouts per week, alternated with the two aforementioned types of cardio by tailoring STS for my purposes.

I just read one of Cosgrove's articles over at T-Nation.com where he said most of his clientele are people who need to get the fat off so that's become his big focus (same with Schuler, Waterbury, Berardi, even Valerie Waters).

 

[Diane15]

Thanks for everyone's replies! I personally love to do cardio & will always do it in some form or another, if only for its mood-enhancement qualities. I also agree with what was stated that there is always research to support most anyone's viewpoint. So I tend to take many things with a grain of salt, & stick with more traditional wisdom. However, if much research tends to be saying that muscle growth is impeded by doing excessive amounts of cardio, & IF my goal is to build more muscle, then maybe I should try cutting out some cardio from STS.
Kathryn, I think what Cosgrove is saying is that his clients, while following his program, have seen major decreases in fat. I think he argues that strength training results in greater afterburn than cardio, & thus burns more overall calories than does cardio. I don't know if you've read his book, but actually he stresses weighttraining movements that correlate to real life activities.
Anyway, I guess I just need to experiment & enjoy the new series!! Thanks again for all your thoughts.

Diane

 

[kathryn]

I don't know if you've read his book, but actually he stresses weighttraining movements that correlate to real life activities.

Yes, I've read two of his books (NRL and NRL4W).

 

[bonvivant]

I just read one of Cosgrove's articles over at T-Nation.com where he said most of his clientele are people who need to get the fat off so that's become his big focus (same with Schuler, Waterbury, Berardi, even Valerie Waters).

That's what sells. Everybody and their grandmother is looking to drop fat. All those people you named do big business on the internet selling self-published works claiming their method gets rid of body fat. (I realize some of the authors also have traditional books.) Their methods are like everyone else's -- works for some people and doesn't work for others. It's not gospel. It's a training approach.

Your best bet is to figure out your goals and be specific as possible. Once you do that, you will find training methods to help you reach those goals. Just remember to be specific. It will also help you eliminate training principles that won't work for you.