Speaking of hornets' nests . . .

Aquajock

Cathlete
I'm curious what others' opinions are on the issues raised in the recent case (here in Minnesota) in which a 13-year-old boy who was diagnosed with Hodgkin's lymphoma underwent one round of chemotherapy, then rejected further treatment along with his parents. His parents claimed that chemo conflicted with their religious beliefs, and also claimed that this 13-year-old boy was an "elder" in their sect. They further indicated that they wished to seek "alternative" methods of treatment. The court of this family's county seat ordered the boy to undergo chemo and ordered the parents to make this happen. About a week ago, the mother fled the area with the boy (and with one and possibly two cohorts), failing to appear at a court hearing. Just today, it has been reported that the boy and his mother will be returning to Minnesota.

What are the ethics here? On the one hand, the vast majority of oncologists have stated that this boy's cancer is eminently treatable, with a 90% chance of survival with conventional treatment. Conversely, without conventional treatment his changes of dying of his illness are profound. And, there is some reporting that the boy is illiterate and it is quite possible he has no true idea how ill he is. On the other hand . . . at what point is it appropriate for the state to determine how parents have their children treated for illness? I must confess I'm uneasy no matter what happens. Personal choices for one's self are one thing, personal choices that affect another's health or very survival are quite another. I just don't know where the lines can be drawn.

I do sincerely hope, however, that in this particular case the boy receives conventional treatment and recovers.

Thoughts?

A-Jock
 
Well, you know I'm always ready with an opinion. :p

I think the law has to protect minors, even against their own parents, until they are old enough to make their own decisions. It's not always easy and there may be times when the law doesn't get it right, but it is needed. The older the child, the more say he or she should have in the decision, but ultimately the law has to assume that a minor simply does not have the competency to make his or her own decision.
 
This is the kind of decision that makes me glad I have nothing to do with making, enforcing, or deciding the legality of laws! Is it fair to go against a patient's religious beliefs to save their life? From the little that I have read, it was the minor who wanted to stop receiving chemotherapy and other conventional treatments. I am not sure if he has the mental capacity to make that decision but if it is against the families religion, should they be forced to receive the treatments? Many religions don't believe in blood transfusions and would rather die without them. Should we force them?

I have read of many cancer patients who refuse chemotherapy. The husband of a former colleague was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. He did one chemotherapy treatment and then refused anymore. Shoudl he have been forced to receive the treatments?

If a person does not want to use conventional treatments, shouldn't they be allowed to investigate alternatives, even if in doing so they quicken their own demise? Couldn't treatments like chemotherapy be said to be against God's plan? Why should it be ok to take one's own life (the other post regarding the Washington state law) but not refuse treatment?

I don't know what the right answer is, or even if there is a right answer. I just think there are many ways to look at this issue and am looking forward to others opinions on it.

Carrie
 
This is the kind of decision that makes me glad I have nothing to do with making, enforcing, or deciding the legality of laws! Is it fair to go against a patient's religious beliefs to save their life? From the little that I have read, it was the minor who wanted to stop receiving chemotherapy and other conventional treatments. I am not sure if he has the mental capacity to make that decision but if it is against the families religion, should they be forced to receive the treatments? Many religions don't believe in blood transfusions and would rather die without them. Should we force them?

I have read of many cancer patients who refuse chemotherapy. The husband of a former colleague was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. He did one chemotherapy treatment and then refused anymore. Shoudl he have been forced to receive the treatments?

If a person does not want to use conventional treatments, shouldn't they be allowed to investigate alternatives, even if in doing so they quicken their own demise? Couldn't treatments like chemotherapy be said to be against God's plan? Why should it be ok to take one's own life (the other post regarding the Washington state law) but not refuse treatment?

I don't know what the right answer is, or even if there is a right answer. I just think there are many ways to look at this issue and am looking forward to others opinions on it.

Carrie

In the United States, it is perfectly legal for a competent adult to refuse treatment of any kind.
 
I am relieved to hear that Nancy! I guess the issue herer is that it is a 13 year old refusing treatment/his parents refusing the treatment for him?

On the flip side, could allowing him to NOT receive treatment on religious grounds negate some cases of child neglect? I am a cynic at heart and think some parents might use this type of case to excuse their neglect.

Carrie
 
I am relieved to hear that Nancy! I guess the issue herer is that it is a 13 year old refusing treatment/his parents refusing the treatment for him?

On the flip side, could allowing him to NOT receive treatment on religious grounds negate some cases of child neglect? I am a cynic at heart and think some parents might use this type of case to excuse their neglect.

Carrie


That's why the parents were ordered to have their son undergo the treatment... they appear to be putting their beliefs ahead of their son's best interest... which, since he is 13, he is not legally capable of determining for himself. (At age 13 he legally cannot make a decision.)
 
I would agree that the law should err on the side of life and if chemotherapy woud offer cure I'd be all for it! I think this is wrong on several levels.

What's most astonishing about the mainstream reaction to the forced chemotherapy of Daniel Hauser is not merely that they believe states now own children, but that they believe in the entire world there exists only one single treatment for cancer, and it happens to be the one that makes pharmaceutical companies the most money. The arrogance and ignorance of the government claiming that poisoning a teenager is the one and only way to save his life is and that those who seek other healing modalities for their children should be arrested and imprisoned.

There was a time when people's diseases were treated with mercury. The quackery of those doctors prescribing mercury wasn't hard to miss: People taking the mercury would get extremely ill. Their hair would fall out, they would lose their appetite and experience extreme loss of body weight, many would simply die from the toxicity. Remarkably, these are the same side effects produced by chemotherapy. And today, chemotherapy doctors describe these side effects in precisely the same terms as the mercury quacks of a century ago, claiming the effects are "part of the healing process" and encouraging patients to just go through with it.

Using mercury to treat people was the state of the art treatment back then, just as chemotherapie is today. But poisoning patients will never produce healing. Period!

As to the "90% cure rate", this is complete and utterly bogus. It is true that this cancer has one of the higher "cure rates" of cancer. In order to understand that it is necessary to know that "cure" in conventional cancer treatment means that you are still breathing after 5 years. Hardly what the average person views as cure! And even with that the 5 year survival rate for children under 15 according to SEER is 72 %.

To quote Benjamin Disraeli, the prime minister of England: “There are three kinds of lies in the world: lies, damn lies, and statistics.” That statement is even more true (and dangerous) when applied to medical studies. In order to understand why this is such a problem one needs to understand how medical statistics are manipulated. What you normally hear are relative numbers not absolute numbers. To give an example: There were several articles about a particular drug cutting the risk of reoccuring breast cancer by 49 %. Sounds like a no-brainer, right? Not so fast! Looking past the statistics in that study, the odds of breast cancer reoccurance without the drug was 1.3 %, with the drug 0.68 %. A difference of a whopping 0.62 %, actually entirely within the statistical margin of error but in the twisted statistics of the cancer industry the absolute number of 0.62 % becomes the relative number of 49 % because 0.62 % is 49 % of 1.3 % :eek:

Most people only hear about chemotherapy causing temporary side effects like hairloss, weightloss and nausea/vomitting. What is usually left out is that the majority of chemotherapy drugs are listed as carcinogenics by the WHO, meaning they are causig secondary cancers, they are mutagenics, mutating cells which can accalerate the growth of cancer, it is also a immune depressant, meaning patients can die from the common cold. And then there is chemo brain, neuropathy, heart failure, blindness, impaired hearing, sterility, etc.

Chemotherapy drugs are cytotoxic meaning they poison the cells in our body that multiply the most rapidly, which is how the majority of cancer cells perform. But chemo also covers rapidly dividing healthy cells (i.e bone marrow that produces blood cells, hair follicles, etc) in our body. For those whose “healthy” cells are multiplying faster than the cancer cells, there isn’t even a theoretical chance of success. For the majority of people who have healthy cell division, chemo may end up killing the body before the cancer. For instance, there is a high probability that certain fast multiplying immune system cells including our T and B lymphocytes will also die, contributing to our body's inability to fight opportunistic diseases that arise as a result of the treatment.

Knowing about the manipulated statistics, lifethreatening side effects and ineffectiveness of chemo in many cases, I completely understand the parents of Daniel Hauser. What else could they have done? To appear in court and submit their child to chemical injections of a toxic substance would amount to child abuse. They are doing what any sensible parent would do: They are protecting their child! The government has no business mandating what medical treatment I seek as a parent, particularly if we are talking about a highly toxic treatment and questionable cure rates. This case really makes me cringe and makes me wonder what kind of society we live in where parents are forced to have their kids injected with toxins against their will, with their freedom being taken away and their parental rights trampled upon beyond recognition. And where the majority of people finds nothing wrong with that but instead hopes that the boy will be injected with poison.
 
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Carola, If I were to ever get cancer I would want to move in with you and let you be my doctor! Your wisdom and eloquence never cease to amaze me. I am in awe of the bravery you had/have in forgoing the medical trend. My hat is off to you! I appreciate all of the insight you bring to these boards.
 
I bet the parents were actually relieved that the state took over and made this decision, so they wouldn't have to choose between their religion and their child.
 
Well, you know I'm always ready with an opinion. :p

I think the law has to protect minors, even against their own parents, until they are old enough to make their own decisions. It's not always easy and there may be times when the law doesn't get it right, but it is needed. The older the child, the more say he or she should have in the decision, but ultimately the law has to assume that a minor simply does not have the competency to make his or her own decision.


ITA with you Nancy.
 
I would agree that the law should err on the side of life and if chemotherapy woud offer cure I'd be all for it! I think this is wrong on several levels.

What's most astonishing about the mainstream reaction to the forced chemotherapy of Daniel Hauser is not merely that they believe states now own children, but that they believe in the entire world there exists only one single treatment for cancer, and it happens to be the one that makes pharmaceutical companies the most money. The arrogance and ignorance of the government claiming that poisoning a teenager is the one and only way to save his life is and that those who seek other healing modalities for their children should be arrested and imprisoned.

Ok. I agree that in the case of minors, the courts have to make decisions in the best interest of the children.

What I have a problem with in your "fact-filled" statement is that you complain about the side effects of chemotherapy and that the use of this treatment is basically only for the benefit of the companies that produce it. You very briefly mention "alternative treatments," but don't give any statistics or name any viable and effective alternative treatments that could be used besides chemotherapy that would provide the child with this type (or any other type) of cancer with a "cure" or even better chance of a quality life.

There are other poisons out there that in high doses will kill, but in modified, lower doses are healing. It's too early in the morning to think of them (my coffee hasn't circulated yet), but they have been used for centuries and are still in use.

So, all I want to say is that if you're going to put down one therapy and claim there are others, then name some of the others and give statistics as clear and precise as the ones you gave for your argument against. That's what's wrong with debates these days. Everyone can come up with their reason against something, but, for some reason, can never or will never put up the information to support their other claims that make their view better.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I believe that alternative treatments like reiki, reflexology, meditation, etc. are helpful, but they don't cure anything. They are good for pain management and that's about all. I don't know of any alternative treatments that are safer than chemo and would produce the same or similar results. I'd be interested in knowing what they are if you know of some.

I have a friend who went through all that and survived and is still cancer-free. No alternative treatments, just the standard chemo/radiation therapies.

More info please!

Tricia
 
Oh Tricia, you have no idea what you are asking for! I have no doubt that Carola can and will provide you with all of the information you have asked for, and a great deal more! I sense a flame war coming on very quickly!
 
Oh Tricia, you have no idea what you are asking for! I have no doubt that Carola can and will provide you with all of the information you have asked for, and a great deal more! I sense a flame war coming on very quickly!

Geez! Flame war about what?
 
Tricia,

I dont have facts, but have done some reading on alternative therapies.

One alternative therapy that I have read of is Gerson Therapy. Not enough studies have been done to showcase statistics. The success rates for this treatment reduce dramatically for patients who have had chemotherapy versus those who havent.

My reading also indicates there are some types of cancer that respond to chemo (such as luekemia) and some that have low rates of response (such as brain or pancreas), and that for a number of cancers chemo is not a cure. For them, it is a disease management, cancer growth inhibition and life prolongment strategy.

Here is an article on homeopathy and cancer:
http://www.canceractive.com/page.php?n=292
So far though, in Europe oncologists who train as homeopaths are using it in conjunction with traditional treatment and to alleviate the side effects of cancer treatment.
 
Number 1: The type of cancer the boy has, at the present stage, has a 95% cure rate. To not save this boy is, in my view, child abuse - a result of irresponsible behavior by the mother that will surely cause her son's death. Were that to happen, I'm sure a case could be made against the mother for manslaughter.

Number 2: A person can have any religious beliefs they choose - FOR THEMSELVES. And while I grant there is some concern regarding the government interfering with a parent/child relationship, ultimately, it is the job of our society to protect ALL children. Were that not the case, parents could legally commit all manner of heinous acts against their children (giving them drugs... pimping them out when they need to pay the rent... molestation could become perfectly legal if a parent claims it's part of their religion...).

I think the anti-government types (I'm SURROUNDED by them at work) need to step off. Father (or mother) doesn't always know what's best. These cases, in my opinion, need to be judged on their individual merits, on a case-by-case basis, simply because the law cannot possibly address every conceivable (alleged) trespass. But a 95% cure rate? That's a no-brainer. What kind of mother, knowing the facts, would say no to life-saving treatment for her child? By the way, no child wants to risk losing the love of a parent by going against what the parent believes and he is a CHILD. He's far too young to be able to fully grasp his own situation and thus, make an informed choice. And he's more than likely going to side with his mommy. Don't most children, when mommy's being picked on?
 
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Ok. I agree that in the case of minors, the courts have to make decisions in the best interest of the children.

What I have a problem with in your "fact-filled" statement is that you complain about the side effects of chemotherapy and that the use of this treatment is basically only for the benefit of the companies that produce it. You very briefly mention "alternative treatments," but don't give any statistics or name any viable and effective alternative treatments that could be used besides chemotherapy that would provide the child with this type (or any other type) of cancer with a "cure" or even better chance of a quality life.

There are other poisons out there that in high doses will kill, but in modified, lower doses are healing. It's too early in the morning to think of them (my coffee hasn't circulated yet), but they have been used for centuries and are still in use.

So, all I want to say is that if you're going to put down one therapy and claim there are others, then name some of the others and give statistics as clear and precise as the ones you gave for your argument against. That's what's wrong with debates these days. Everyone can come up with their reason against something, but, for some reason, can never or will never put up the information to support their other claims that make their view better.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I believe that alternative treatments like reiki, reflexology, meditation, etc. are helpful, but they don't cure anything. They are good for pain management and that's about all. I don't know of any alternative treatments that are safer than chemo and would produce the same or similar results. I'd be interested in knowing what they are if you know of some.

I have a friend who went through all that and survived and is still cancer-free. No alternative treatments, just the standard chemo/radiation therapies.

More info please!

Tricia


The question was not what alternative methods are available to treat cancer. The question was about that boy and chemotherapy and if it is right to force chemotherapy against his and his parents will. As far as I know he had already had 1 "treatment" and after HE refused to take any more. Aside according to abcnews the parents and the boy had asked for a less 'rigorous' chemothreatment than what the doctors wanted to give.

I am glad to hear that your friend went through all the standard treatments, survived and is still cancer-free. I don't know any details on what your friend's diagnosis, how long ago that was, so i can't really comment on that but I am happy for her. I think as long as people are aware as to what the risks are in oppose to the actual benefits I have no problem with the decision of going through chemotherapy. What I do have a problem with is that people are NOT given a choice and the decision is made for them. Maybe i have a different risk assessment than my doctor and maybe I have different priorities, just like those parents. But that doesn't seem to important.

I was diagnosed with breast-cancer, had a bilateral mastectomy and decided against the advice of conventional oncologists to forego chemotherapy/radiation and instead opted for alternative / naturopathic treatments after looking at the actual statistics of "cure" rates of chemotherapy which are pitiful if you look past the trumped up claims.

There are many different alternative therapies and to go into those in detail would be a book in itself. Aside I moved out of my house on Friday and am staying at a friend's house until I find a place of my own so I don't have any access to my computer files or books. I will just stick to the basics and point you to some books that may be worth reading for people who interested in alternative therapies. Reiki, reflexology, meditation don't do anything to "kill" cancer cells and is only used in conjunction with other treatments not as a standalone.

High-dose vitamin C http://www.naturalnews.com/022200.html
Modified Citrus Pectin http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FDN/is_6_5/ai_68727255/
LDN (low dose naltrexone) http://www.lowdosenaltrexone.org/ldn_and_cancer.htm
Vitamin D http://www.healthbulletin.org/cancer/cancer33.htm
Zyflamend http://www.cumc.columbia.edu/news/press_releases/zyflamend.html
Immunetherapy
Chinese Traditional Medicine
Protocel
Detoxification
Gerson Therapy
Coley's Toxins http://www.cancerguide.org/coley.html

You won't find many "clinical trials" when it comes to alternative therapies, the reason being that there is not much much money in alternative therapy and research costs money, lots of it. With chemotherapy, the pharmaceutical industry funds 75 to 90 % of the clinical trials. The question is how unbiased is the research if the ones who make the money on the drug are the ones who fund the research?

The major complaint of conventional medicine is that alternative therapies are "unproven" and don't adhere to the gold standard of RCTs (randomized clinical trials). If you realize how clinical trials are run and how they are reported I don't find much of a gold standard.

For a chemotherapy drug to be approved by the FDA it has to show that it shrinks the tumor by 50 % over a period of 28+ days. If shrinking a tumor would heal cancer, it would be great but unfortunately that is not the case. If you then also know that the drug companies can pick and choose which trials they submit to the FDA for drug approval, they only need two studies that show with statistical significance that the drug is working. In other words, they can have 10, 50 or 100 failed attempts that the average person will never know about, as long as they have two that showed that it worked in a few people, the drug will be approved.

The patients who drop out of the clinical trials due to side effects or because they die are not considered in the final analysis of the study. To me that is not very scientific and in fact really deceiving.

Now, when i went to my first conventional oncologist, he told me that chemotherapy only works in 10 % of people but they don't know which ones so they give it to everyone. According to their own numbers 1 out of 10 benefits from chemotherapy and still almost everyone who is diagnosed with cancer receives chemotherapy and people can die from the side effects of the treatment. Does everyone die from the effects of chemotherapy? No, of course not! Does everyone die from smoking cigarettes?

Of course there are always people who survive cancer and attribute it to one or the other. In the case where there were only primary tumors that were removed through surgery and no detactable metastasis how do you know that people survived cancer BECAUSE of chemotherapy or did they survive DESPITE of it? I don't know the answer to this but neither does the medical community!

What I will say though is that what those people who do survive cancer whether they use chemotherapy or alternative medicine have in common is that they change their lifestyle and diet because after all whatever treatment people decide they want to do, i think everyone is very clear about the fact that cancer is a disease where the immunesystem at some point broke down. To deplete your immune system even further does not make much sense to me.
Chemotherapy does not work on the underlying cause, it shrinks tumors at least shortterm. Chemotherapy works like spraying a pesticide, there will always be some bugs that survive and become immune against further treatment and can come back with a vengance. If chemotherapy such has such tremendous cure rates why is it then that so many people who go through chemotherapy have reoccurances?

Are there cases where chemotherapy may be warranted? Sure! But I still think it is a personal choice and should not be forced by the government or the medical community.

Recommended books / movies

Questioning Chemotherapy by Ralph Moss
The Politics of Cancer and How to Win the Losing Cancer War by Samuel Epstein M.D
Cancer - Step Outside the Box by Ty Bollinger
Chemotherapy Heals Cancer and the Earth is Flat by Lothar Hirneise
Comprehensive Cancer Care: Integrating Alternative, Complementary and Conventional Therapies by James Gordon and Sharon Curtin
The China Study by T. Collin Campbell

Healing Cancer from the Inside Out (can be downloaded on iTunes)
 
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Number 1: The type of cancer the boy has, at the present stage, has a 95% cure rate. To not save this boy is, in my view, child abuse - a result of irresponsible behavior by the mother that will surely cause her son's death. Were that to happen, I'm sure a case could be made against the mother for manslaughter.

Number 2: A person can have any religious beliefs they choose - FOR THEMSELVES. And while I grant there is some concern regarding the government interfering with a parent/child relationship, ultimately, it is the job of our society to protect ALL children. Were that not the case, parents could legally commit all manner of heinous acts against their children (giving them drugs... pimping them out when they need to pay the rent... molestation could become perfectly legal if a parent claims it's part of their religion...).

I think the anti-government types (I'm SURROUNDED by them at work) need to step off. Father (or mother) doesn't always know what's best. These cases, in my opinion, need to be judged on their individual merits, on a case-by-case basis, simply because the law cannot possibly address every conceivable (alleged) trespass. But a 95% cure rate? That's a no-brainer. What kind of mother, knowing the facts, would say no to life-saving treatment for her child? By the way, no child wants to risk losing the love of a parent by going against what the parent believes and he is a CHILD. He's far too young to be able to fully grasp his own situation and thus, make an informed choice. And he's more than likely going to side with his mommy. Don't most children, when mommy's being picked on?

Where do you find that this cancer has a 95 % cure rate?

So if the government knows best, where is the government when it comes to empovered children when they are starving, no education, being homeless?? Where is the government providing health care? if the government wants to force the treatment against their will, they better step up to the plate and pay for it but they won't.

Don't you think a 13-year-old has a full grasp of how he feels going through the treatment? My 13-year-old does NOT do what I want him to do, he challenges me every single day. They are trying teenagers as adults when they commit a crime, so why can't a 13-year-old have a say in what treatment he wants to get.

'What kind of mother, knowing the fact, would say no to lifesaving treatment?' Do YOU know the facts? Apparently not because the 'cure" rate is NOT 95 % and the side effects are horrendous! What if the boy dies from the treatment? Is everyone just shrugging their shoulders and say 'oh well'? Or is there a case to be made against the government for murder?

It is also reported that the boy has said to resists his doctors by kicking and punching and that doctors will use physical restraints and/or inject him with sedatives. I am absolutely stunned that people think that this is acceptable, it kind of reminds me of Gestapo methods!
 
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