Speaking of hornets' nests . . .
- Thread starter Aquajock
- Start date
syzygy314
Cathlete
Not looking for a war, just the other side! I always believed that as long as the person is competent, of legal age and is informed they should be allowed to make their own choice! However, in the case of a minor, they can't make these decisions for themselves.
I just get tired of hearing the "why not" without the "why" side of every debate. I guess you can tell I watch way too many political debates! They NEVER give their reasons or the "how!"
Tricia
syzygy314
Cathlete
Carola,
Thanks for your info and the links! I will definitely be looking into these! It is amazing how much more cancer is out there as we "progress" forward. The more research can be done on better treatments that provide better results or similar results with higher quality of life, the better! Too many of my friends have been lost recently to cancers under traditional treatments.
I appreciate it! I do like getting both sides and the follow up! I need follow up! (Watching too many political debates where you get absolutely nothing but sound bites!) It's nice to find people with real knowledge!
Thanks again!
morningstar
Cathlete
Carola,
TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine) does NOT have a cure for cancer. The best a TCM practitioner can do is provide support to the patient undergoing chemotherapy, radiation, etc. Any TCM practitioner that claims to have cured cancer should be reported to their regulatory body, if there is one in their area, and to the Better Business Bureau, if there isn't one. I know this for a fact. Without talking too much about myself and giving away private information, I can't explain why I know this, but it is true.
TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine) does NOT have a cure for cancer. The best a TCM practitioner can do is provide support to the patient undergoing chemotherapy, radiation, etc. Any TCM practitioner that claims to have cured cancer should be reported to their regulatory body, if there is one in their area, and to the Better Business Bureau, if there isn't one. I know this for a fact. Without talking too much about myself and giving away private information, I can't explain why I know this, but it is true.
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fit_fairy
Cathlete
I'm trying to find where you are quoting her from. I see her talking about alternative therapy and TCM, but I don't see where she said it cures cancer.
morningstar
Cathlete
She mentioned it in a list of alternative therapies related to their ability to treat cancer, and carefully mentioned three of those therapies not having the ability to cure cancer (thereby implying that the other therapies mentioned do have that ability).
fit_fairy
Cathlete
I don't see her implying that at all.
morningstar
Cathlete
As long as it's clear that TCM does NOT cure cancer.
hiitdogs
Cathlete
Not entirely true! If you read the story of Anne Fonfa, a patient advocate who runs the AnnieAppleseedProject, her path of treatment was the Gerson Therapy and TCM.
It also depends on what you consider "cure". If you are talking about shrinking cancer cells there are a few Chinese herbs which reportedly do just that. I am currently at a friend's and have no access to the books and computer at my house but I know there were several references to studies on Chinese herbs and TCM in Ty Bollinger's book Cancer - Step outside the Box.
A holistic approach to cancer is very different to conventional. Whereas conventional medicine is obsessed with the shrinking of tumors, the alternative / holistic approach focuses on more on the underlying cause and activating the body's immune system and have the "troops on the ground' fight the abnormal cells which is what TCM can do. Does it do it in all cases? No! But neither does chemotherapy.
Just to be clear, shrinking cancer cells does not equate cure, nor does it prolong life! Does alternative treatment always work? No, of course not! To quote the conversation with my second conventional oncologist:
Dr: "Ask your naturopath what guarantees he can give you!'
Me: "He hasn't given me any guarantees and I didn't ask for any. But since we are at the subject, what guarantees can you give me with chemotherapy, radiation and tamoxifen?
Dr: "None"
I rest my case!
Cancer is a very complex, multifaceted and complicated disease. There are no surefire treatments and cures. Not in conventional medicine and not in alternative medicine.
Morningstar, the three "treaments" you are referring to are reiki, reflexology and meditation which were mentioned by Tricia as alternative treatments and I stated that these are not standalone treatments. in fact, they are used to improve well-being but probably won't do anything in regards to cancer cells. But the disease cancer does not only consist of cancer cells, cancer cells are merely the symptom of an underlying disease.
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Beavs
Cathlete
Carola...I know you have enough to do right now but should you have time, I'd love to see a resource list (books, websites, any scholarly journal articles, etc) you'd recommend on alternative therapies. Many of us are open minded to what you have to say but need to read the facts for ourselves and make our own decisions.
hiitdogs
Cathlete
I think the books that I mentioned above are a good start but i do have a list of articles on my computer. I am hoping to have my own computer back by the end of the week and the internet connection up by the weekend.
I am not saying that anyone needs to take anything I say at face value. But I am also saying don't take everything you hear in the media or from the medical community at face value. Get as much information as you can get, ask questions and THEN make an informed decision. Whether that is conventional treatment or alternative treatment is really none of my business and i would never judge anyone because they have come to a different conclusion than i have.
morningstar
Cathlete
Again, I want to be very clear: TCM does NOT cure cancer. Carola, you are doing a disservice to people if you are telling them it does.
hiitdogs
Cathlete
I want to be very clear: It can and it has! I have said that there are no surefire treatments, not in conventional and not in alternative medicine. You are just saying 'TCM does not cure cancer' and you have offered not one shred of evidence, backup, etc. to support what you are saying. Do you have any evidence that what I am saying about Anne Fonfa is untrue?
But I will say that under current laws it is illegal to market TCM as a cure for cancer. Since according to the medical community only a drug can cure disease.
And what service are you doing people if you say you know for a fact that TCM doesn't cure cancer but you can't talk any more about it because it's too private? How much is that based on science.
I don't see any problem with people looking into alternative medicine, including TCM. They can make up their own mind! What's wrong with people getting more information? Is there anything to hide?
morningstar
Cathlete
Carola, it is important in this online world we live in to protect our privacy. I know it for a fact because of the work that I do. This is something I know a lot about. I can't give any more detail than that. You can choose to reject what I'm saying, given that I can't give any more detail because of privacy issues, but I hope that I have built enough credibility on this forum that what I have to say is taken seriously, if not agreed with. You are making some very strong claims that even credible, well-trained senior TCM practitioners would not make. TCM is very effective for many things (including helping with the side effects of mainstream cancer treatment), and as I have stated many times, I am a big fan of acupuncture for pain. TCM is not effective for cancer and telling people it is might not only give someone false hope, but might delay their getting treatment that might help.
hiitdogs
Cathlete
I am asking you again! Do you have any evidence that proves what I said about Anne Fonfa wrong?
So if you are in that line of work, whatever it is, it should be easy for you to produce any articles, reports, etc. without divulging anything about yourself.
Senior well-trained TCM practicioners cannot make any claims about curing disease because of the FDA strongarming them. One of my "supplements" had to put a disclaimer on the bottle that it is only a supplement and that it is not marketed to cure cancer although there is plenty of evidence that it does, even now admitted in mainstream medicine. The fact is that any doctor or health care professional could lose their license or go to jail for promoting anything else than chemotherapy and radiation. So much for the land of the free!
TCM does not only consist of accupuncture, accupressure, shiatsu, qigong and the likes! I am not sure why it is that people are so adament that only a high priced, patented, synthetic drug can cure a disease. The fact is that most of our Western medicine drugs don't cure any disease, most of them treat symptoms.
i have no idea why you get so bent out of shape. I have said that there are cases where people after treatment with Chinese herbs are NSD (no sign of disease) but I have also said that there are no surefire treatments and no guarantees in either conventional nor alternative treatments.
It appears you are hell-bent to force a flame war, not only in this thread but in others as well. I am not sure what the reason for that is, but hey, if it makes you feel better!
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morningstar
Cathlete
Carola, this is not a flame war. This is about me actually trying to protect people from exaggerated claims about alternative medicines. And yes, I take this very very very seriously. If you actually knew me and what I do for a living, you would understand why. It has been clear for a while that you are on a mission to get people to use alternative medicines to treat cancer, and I have kept my mouth shut about most of it, but I cannot shut up about TCM curing cancer. It doesn't, and you could actually end up hurting people by convincing people it does.
And incidentally, the FDA has no power in my jurisdiction, and TCM is not regulated where I am. So the FDA is not strong arming practitioners here and regulators are not shutting them up or putting them in jail for making these claims.
And incidentally, the FDA has no power in my jurisdiction, and TCM is not regulated where I am. So the FDA is not strong arming practitioners here and regulators are not shutting them up or putting them in jail for making these claims.
hiitdogs
Cathlete
I am not on a mission to get people to use alternative medicines to treat cancer. That is a choice that I have made for myself based on my particular situation and the research i have done. My mission is to empower patients and for people to have access to more information which I have found to be discouraged by many in believers in conventional medicine.
I have said in this post and many other people need to make their own decisions as to what the right treatment course is for them. If that is conventional, integrative, alternative therapies or nothing at all is none of my business and I will support anyone going through cancer treatment, no matter what choice they make. Cancer is far to serious for dogmatism and playing politics.
It is not like conventional cancer treatment has such stellar success rates and i think people should know about medical studies, clinical trials and actual numbers before they make a risk/benefit assessment because after all it should be the patient's decision and not the doctor's. The doctor's job should be to give information and options not to scare people into conventional treatment.
I also take this very, very, very seriously!
Beavs
Cathlete
People should be asking questions of a trusted healthcare provider and doing the research at their libraries with the help of a reference librarian (no, you cannot find everything on Google or WebMD people!). They should not be taking medical advice from forums. That doesn't mean that the discussions here can't be a starting point for further exploration. I can't say I agree with everything Carola has said and I don't believe she expecting any of us to despite her being very opinionated on the subject. Still, there is an interesting discussion here.
carres1973
Cathlete
But where to find a trusted librarian???
Carrie
Carrie
pixiesis
Cathlete
Morningstar, would you consider dropping the attitude toward Carola? I don't necessarily agree with everything she says, nor do I think she is telling people what kind of treatment they should get. She's being honest when she says that she thinks people should do their research and make informed decisions.
Are you forgetting that these choices she's made are not exactly the kind of choices one ever wants to make?
Carola, I wish you all the best!
Amy
Are you forgetting that these choices she's made are not exactly the kind of choices one ever wants to make?
Carola, I wish you all the best!
Amy