So What's the Story on SQUATS??

pebblesus

Cathlete
So I always hear Cathe to squat parallel to the ground.. however a lot of people and site (powerlifting and such) refer a lot to going just BELOW parallel and even butt-to-the-ground..

What is the pros and cons of each?

Not that I could ever do either of the latter.. my knees are so bad and my legs are so twisted that I couldn't even do ONE with no weights at all and with my hand on a chair or something lol!
 
Well, if your knees are telling you something I recommend you listen to them. My ortho told me that squats are basically one of the worst things you can do for your knees- lunges are practically knee friendly compared to them. It has to do with the angle. Once you go past ninety degrees, your knees are just not going to be happy with that. If some people can do it and manage to remain injury free, more power to them, but the thought of going butt to the ground just makes me wince.
 
I don't have anything to say about squats. Just wanted to ask how you are doing? Does it still hurt to move your arms?

Wendy
 
Hi Wendy,
Thanks for checking up on me :)
I guess there was no real damage (although it really felt like I RIPPED or TORE every fiber in my upper body lol.. err.. couldn't move for two days. I took 800mg IBU.. not sure if just a liitle of that made a difference or if it was just timing via REST, but I slowly felt more movable as the week progressed.
Yesterday I went to the local gym to do legs (I figured I could at least do lower body as I wasn't ready for upper yet and the squat rack was perfect as I wasn't ready to lift db's r bb's yet).
Today I did a "test" workout.. PUB with about half the weight I would normally use.. to test it out.
All went well so I think by weeks end I will be back to normal for lifting.
You know its funny.. while OC for the week it got me thinking about how many people have dreams and before they can even TRY to persue them, some freak accident happens, and then their dreams are shorted forever..
I was scared to death that I might have torn a ligament and would need surgery or something (which I can't afford) and wouldn't be able to lift heavy again.. and I have recently been considering getting into Fitness Modeling and/or competing nn the next couple years.
Although I have a long way to go, I was just a couple weeks into a "bulking phase" when this happenend. Wasn't sure if I should pause it (can't eat like that if you're not doing the work eh?)..
So Im glad it was just some intense strain *pun* and not any permanent damage that could hamper my goals forever.
Although I didn't neccessarily learn a "lesson", I DID find out how much weight to use on the machines (I overdid it cuz I haven't used them in two years and had no idea what weight I would need.. should've started out lighter- I guess that would be the lesson learned go figure :T
Sorry for rambling, just a quick glimpse into all that flashed before my eyes in three days hehe ;)
 
I don't understand going beyond 90 degrees either. I was always told to never do that. My osteo doc said that lunges were worse than squats (yes, I still do both!). Funny that the opposite was mentioned above- who knows! I just try to always be mindful of my form, and how my knees are feeling on the particular day that I am doing leg work.
 
>Well, if your knees are telling you something I recommend you
>listen to them. My ortho told me that squats are basically one
>of the worst things you can do for your knees- lunges are
>practically knee friendly compared to them. It has to do with
>the angle. Once you go past ninety degrees, your knees are
>just not going to be happy with that. If some people can do it
>and manage to remain injury free, more power to them, but the
>thought of going butt to the ground just makes me wince.

Interesting. My DH is a physical therapist and we have many ortho friends. Almost all of them (at least all of the younger ones) believe that squats can be incredibly beneficial for the knee as they strengthen all of the muscles around the knee joint. I squat to parallel but many competitive lifters go below parallel. They do it in a controlled and highly practiced way that makes it safe for them. I would add that squats are also important because we inevitably do them in everyday life (lifting objects, picking up children/furniture/groceries) so the more you 'practice' them in your workouts, the more likely you can do them without incident.

As an example, my MIL was having issues with leg pain and getting in and out of her car. She's also a gardener and is constantly getting on her knees and getting up again. When she visited, Jason and I gave her an exercise program that included squats (she's over 60 BTW) and low and behold, after a few months of squatting, she is moving more efficiently in every way. And her leg pain went away.

From what I've read, squatting (and weight training in general) can be more beneficial for maintaining flexibility than stretching (and a recent study came out that showed that squatting works the core more than traditional core exercises as well!). This makes perfect sense to me as you are practicing going through a range of motion, usually with a resistance. Having the ability to perform tasks with a good range of motion is usually more important than being able to hold a stretch for a long time and the results are more sustainable.


Just my thoughts here...
Carolyn
 
>Interesting. My DH is a physical therapist and we have many
>ortho friends. Almost all of them (at least all of the younger
>ones) believe that squats can be incredibly beneficial for the
>knee as they strengthen all of the muscles around the knee
>joint. I squat to parallel but many competitive lifters go
>below parallel. They do it in a controlled and highly
>practiced way that makes it safe for them. I would add that
>squats are also important because we inevitably do them in
>everyday life (lifting objects, picking up
>children/furniture/groceries) so the more you 'practice' them
>in your workouts, the more likely you can do them without
>incident.
>

>Just my thoughts here...
>Carolyn
>
>
>
I agree that the weight training is incredibly beneficial, and squats are a great way to strengthen the legs. In my case, I'm already a seasoned exerciser, and have plenty of muscle in my legs (and have done plenty of squats). The only area I really need to improve is the vastus medialis, which really doesn't get much action when you're doing a squat. For me, I 'practiced' them a little too much, so now I'm laying off of them. Of course I've got the whole checklist for biomechanical predispositions to knee problems checked off, so that's just my situation. Since there's plenty of other moves I can use to keep my legs strong, I choose others with less strain on the knees. For someone with minimal leg muscle, I agree that squats are probably one of the quickest ways to build it up.

I'd be interested in hearing more orthopedic surgeons' opinions on this though. I was told that > 90 degrees is and incredible amount of strain. I know personally it's way more than I can handle, but obviously others can do it their whole lives without a hitch. I think at the end of the day it's up to everyone to listen to their own bodies.
 
>I agree that the weight training is incredibly beneficial, and
>squats are a great way to strengthen the legs. In my case, I'm
>already a seasoned exerciser, and have plenty of muscle in my
>legs (and have done plenty of squats). The only area I really
>need to improve is the vastus medialis, which really doesn't
>get much action when you're doing a squat. For me, I
>'practiced' them a little too much, so now I'm laying off of
>them. Of course I've got the whole checklist for biomechanical
>predispositions to knee problems checked off, so that's just
>my situation. Since there's plenty of other moves I can use to
>keep my legs strong, I choose others with less strain on the
>knees. For someone with minimal leg muscle, I agree that
>squats are probably one of the quickest ways to build it up.

You are right that they can be overdone (like anything else, I guess). I continue to do them because I wish to maintain flexibility in my knees and hips (and of course to stay strong). I guess I'm confused as to what sort of squat we're referring to here. Cathe does mainly back squats (bar on the back) so I suppose that's what we're talking about. I also recommend (to clients) doing front squats, bulgarian squats, sumo squats and lateral squats as well and I believe they all have their place in a balanced and efficient workout plan. I also practice 'getting up' from a kneeling/sitting position - going up and down changing the lead leg. It's quite a workout! :)

To be honest, I'm not sure how knowledgeable ortho docs are about resistance exercise in general. I don't think they get a lot of exercise science related material (and what they do get is probably more rehab related). I've had more than one experience with orthos (and docs in general) who don't even know how to squat properly. Of course there are those that take a personal interest in weight training and they are usually quite knowledgeable. I think though it's rather 'old school' to think that squats in general are 'bad' for the knees.

Carolyn
 
I'd really like to see an actual STUDY with DATA that proves that squatting past parallel damages the knees.

Anecdotally(sp), I've been doing most of my squats (weighted and unweighted - good form only) going past parallel for the last year and have had no knee issues, not even a twitch...and this is post ACL reconstruction.

<<My ortho told me that squats are basically one of the worst things you can do for your knees>>

So I gotta ask...if squats are so bad, how does your ortho manage to sit on the toilet?? }(

Sorry, couldn't resist...
 
Gayle! LMAO!

I agree, parallel squats are not harmful to the knees. In fact, if done properly they should strengthen the supporting muscles & tendons & generally be good for the knees. I think most of us experience knee damage from high impact cardio moves, but since we also do squats we end up blaming the wrong exercise.

As far as the a$$ to grass squats, I'm not making any judgement calls on that, other than to say I'd rather shave my head with a cheese grater than do them. ;-)
 
>I think most of us experience knee damage from high impact cardio
>moves, but since we also do squats we end up blaming the wrong
>exercise.

Excellent point, LM!! :)
 
I feel your relief. It is scary. I can understand where your mind can go while taking a break. Glad to hear you are feeling better. When I started looking for an orthopedic/sports medicine doctor about my rotator cuff, they recommended doing exactly what you did -- ice, inflammatory reducing medicine, and rest. If you were still in pain after a few days, then make the appointment. Best wishes for staying injury free!!!

Wendy
 
Yeah I guess the > 90 is for powerlifters and significant to strength for them.. as I said, I can't do them even weightless (I used to go out dancing with a lot of "floor moves"-- can't do that anymore either hee)
Ive always just done lite floorwork or kickboxing for leg work but the past two months decided to start training heavier. I started with GS Legs (and my own variations of) for a few weeks and now Im going to the gym to use the squat rack for all my squats and lunges.. I want to be like those girls that can squat in the hundreds lol!
I know that may never happen for me as I have a twisted leg (rotated hip points my knee and foot out sideways) so I just like to build the muscles more.
There's no doubt about it that strengthening the (quads particularily) stabilize the knee joints making everyday things easier for them. Being genetically predisposed to leg and knee nightmares I want to take every precausion I can and stretching and strength I believe will help dramatically.
Im also wondeirng if having the structural misalignment could cause stress on my training or develope the muscles differently (in a negaive way)-- any thoughts on that?? (I know its harder for me to do a lot of leg work pointed in the right direction lol)..
 
<<<There's no doubt about it that strengthening the (quads particularily) stabilize the knee joints making everyday things easier for them. Being genetically predisposed to leg and knee nightmares I want to take every precausion I can and stretching and strength I believe will help dramatically.>>>

Hi pebblesus,

This is from experience - You need to work ALL of the leg muscles to stabilize the knee, not just quads. Make sure the the hamstrings, adductor, abductors, glutes, calves, etc, etc are getting just as much work.

Focusing on the quads, which I think a lot of workouts tend to do, will set you up for muscles imbalances that will make your knee nightmares worse.
 
pebblesus, do you have a Smith machine at your gym? I would suggest at least beginning on that rather than the squat rack. I don't use anything but the Smith machine for squats OR lunges, mostly b/c it really forces you to use proper form & reduces the risk of injury. Just my 2 cents, but I think you'd really like it compared to the traditional rack.
 
>I'd really like to see an actual STUDY with DATA that proves
>that squatting past parallel damages the knees.
>
I'd be the first to reinforce that having strong balanced muscles is the best thing you can do for your knees, but I don't see how anyone could do such a study. Everything from your hips to every bone in your foot, genetic predispositions to cartilage weakness, etc. is going to affect how your knees behave and what they can tolerate, and the variations in physiology from person to person would just be massive. The only thing I know for certain is that for me, it's just unnecessary harm in exchange for benefits I could get from other exercises. For everyone that can do unlimited squats, BE GRATEFUL.
 
>>I'd really like to see an actual STUDY with DATA that
>proves
>>that squatting past parallel damages the knees.
>>
>I'd be the first to reinforce that having strong balanced
>muscles is the best thing you can do for your knees, but I
>don't see how anyone could do such a study.

They could look at the incidences of knee injuries among athletes who squat past 90 degrees.

Carolyn
 
Hey Carolyn!

Is there a website that illustrates proper form for all the squat and lunge variations? I've had trouble finding demos for anything much beyond your basic squat or forward lunge. TIA :)
 
>Hey Carolyn!
>
>Is there a website that illustrates proper form for all the
>squat and lunge variations? I've had trouble finding demos for
>anything much beyond your basic squat or forward lunge. TIA :)
>

Hi Michele! :)

My husband likes the free training videos on the NSCA website (you can watch in slide show or video format). I trust his opinion on this one. I looked at it and it looks good to me although I couldn't find a lunge demonstration. Here's the website link:

http://www.nsca-lift.org/videos/displayvideos.asp

This next website does show an animated figure doing lunges that I thought was decent:

http://www.healthatoz.com/healthato...stURI=/healthatoz/Atoz/hl/fit/demo/lunges.jsp


Here's another website that I thought offered some good info but limited pictures:

http://exercise.about.com/cs/butthipsthighs/l/aa092900a.htm

HTH!!:)

C
 

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