London bombings

B

Bunbun

Cathlete
This is terrible and tragic. Scary, too--first Madrid, then London. How long before it happens again in the US, too? I hate that I have to take the subway in NY to work every day, but my BF tells me that even with a terrorist threat out there, mass transit is still safer than driving a car, statistically. Just that you *think* you're in control and safe when you're driving a car.

Well, on that lovely and depressing note, I'm off to work. :(
 
Very scary....I have a neice over there...:(...My SIL contacted the group her daugher is with. They are safe but it still scares me...Not sure I feel comfortable at all leaving the country right now...Carole
 
Those people went from elation yesterday after the Olympic Bid was awarded to this today . . . .

Light Candles and Pray. Stay strong W and Tony . . .
Dawn
 
This is what the mayor of London said:


"I want to say one thing, specifically to the world today - this was not a terrorist attack against the mighty and the powerful, it was not aimed at presidents or prime ministers, it was aimed at ordinary, working-class Londoners, black and white, Muslim and Christian ... young and old ... that isn't an ideology, it isn't even a perverted fate, it is an indiscriminate attempt at mass murder."

"They seek to divide London, they seek Londoners to turn against each other ... this city of London is the greatest in the world because everybody lives side by side in harmony. Londoners will not be divided by this cowardly attack."

Livingstone also had words specifically for the terrorists: "I know that you personally do not fear to give your own life in exchange to taking others [that is why you are so dangerous] ... but I know you do fear you may fail in your long-term objective to destroy our free society ... in the days that follow, look at our airports, look at our seaports and look at our railway stations ... you will see that people from the rest of Britain, people from around the world, will arrive in London to become Londoners, to fulfill their dream and achieve their potential ... whatever you do, however many you kill, you will fail."
 
This really makes me sick. Al-Qaida is nothing more than a desperate, warped, hate-filled group whose ideas went out with the middle ages.
 
I won't justify terrorism in any form. Attacking and killing innocent people is horrendous.

As we criticize these people for trying to destabilize our structure and way of life ask yourself if we are any better attacking other nations to force democracy and our way of life down their throats.

Al Qaida was a a bunch of thugs that the US trained to harass the Russians when they invaded Afghanistan ( the enemy of my enemy is my friend?). We sophisticated them and now they attack us. Now we have no option but destroying them. They seem to be like the mythological creature the Hydra, cut off it's head and two more grow back.

my 2 cents

Dave
 
A few facts I think people often miss on this subject:
We aren't forcing democracy down anyone's throats, despite what you may think you know from watching the mainstream media. The fact is the majority of Iraquis want democracy. Saddam was a threat, one that even Clinton and Kerry acknowledged. He used weapons on his own people, and had connections to terrorists. These are cut and dried facts.
It is true that people and countries that you may have worked with once before may later become enemies. It's just the way it is in the political world.
I question a way of life, Islamic extremism that is, that states that people and cultures who are not like them should be eliminated.
The whole process of undermining the war, and Bush in general, by the libs is endangering us all. It's ok to criticize constructively but to just baselessly rant and whine while undermining an important task is hurting all of us in the end.
The U.S. bends over backwards to try to do things right and be considerate of others, even captives like at Gitmo. We always pay the price for that. Perhaps we need to be tougher on people and countries.
The only thing you really need to know is that these people like Al-Quaeda and their ilk want you dead. Just by existing you anger them. They need to be eliminated before they eliminate us one day.
 
Nice on Ice:

Thanks for your words. People don't seem to want to understand that Islamic fundamentalists don't want to get to know us, or come over on Sunday for potluck and a game of whist. Many of these fundamentalists are from well-off, educated families. A good portion have been educated in the West (US, UK, Germany). They know our way of life and are repulsed by it. As far fetched as it sounds to us, they want to destroy the way we live and establish a khalifah under shariah (Islamic law). They are actively working towards that and people need to wake up.

I spent a good many happy years living in Saudi Arabia. I have no hatred for Arabs, Muslims or Islam. But the bottom line is that our two cultures are in conflict and we need to be prepared to protect ourselves, our children and our way of life.

Off the soapbox. Now I need coffee....


Sparrow













__________________
www.scifichics.com
 
My opinion isn't from watching mainstream media, I haven't turned on my TV in ages. This tool called the "internet" gives you access to news outlets throughout the world, a refreshing break from conservative or liberal based reporting.

I fully agree on the problems of fundamentalism especially when it is tied to religion. Islamic extremism isn't the only extremism that denies other cultures or ideas.

We should hunt these people down and stop them.

However we ARE trying to force our way of life down other peoples throats...

Whether it be the war in Iraq (remember the quest for the WMDs that didn't exist) or the previous administrations "if you don't improve your record of human rights we won't offer you "most favored nation" status"

If a group of people get tired of the way their government or leader treats them, they overthrow them. We did it in the 1770s, the French did it, the Russian people tossed one of the most powerful governments in history. Haiti does it every other year. There is no "retirement plan" for despots and dictators. People will determine their own soveriegnty, people will decide their form of government. People will eventually detest the outside interference of their "liberators."

We need to protect our way of life as well as honor others ways of life.
 
The only thing I'd add is that WMDs DID exist in Iraq and still exist elsewhere. There is plenty of sattelite evidence that tracked movement across the border into Syria. Much of the evidence was shipped across the border and sold for scrap metal. This comes straight from people familiar with that border, many of whom were on Saddam's payroll. Saddam was allowed too much time by the ridiculous UN inspections and during that time much of the evidence was destroyed.
People forget that he used WMDs against his own people.
Enough said on that. The London bombings are tragic but no one should be shocked. People cannot let their guard down for a second.
 
>If a group of people get tired of the way their government or
>leader treats them, they overthrow them. We did it in the
>1770s

Remember that we got help from France. We didn't do it all by ourselves.

What about Hitler? He slaughtered millions of Jews, and who was it that was able to "overthrow" him? The Jews? No, it people of other nations. Should the world have sat back and let him destroy an entire religion and then said, "Oh, well. Maybe they will finally stand up for themselves." They were not militant, they had no weapons. Same with Iraq.

We absolutely must respect others way of life! I absolutely agree 100%. Noone wants to live in oppression and fear everday of their life and Saddam was not a leader who was looking out for the best interest of his country. Oppression is not a way of life. He should not still be in power and IMO he shouldn't even still be alive. Iraqi's make up more than 90% of those fighting for a free Iraq, so they must want freedom and democracy. Immigrants leave countries like Iraq/Haiti/Cuba/African countries to come to America because we are democracy and everyone is equal and free and can build their own life.

I will never understand how someone would want to harm people that don't live the way that they think they should. My thoughts and prayers are with everyone involved in the London bombings.
 
Hi!

Can you clarify what you mean by 'forcing our way of life down other people's throats?' Are you talking about cultural hegemony or trying to establish democratic governments? I would disagree about the former: no one forces Chinese citizens to eat at McDonald's or Saudis to buy satellite dishes by the thousands so they can watch Baywatch, which, last I heard, was the top rated show in the Middle East. And if other countries want these things, who are we to say they can't have them? We have fast food, comfy homes, air conditioning...I think it's arrogant and paternilistic to enjoy these things ourselves but then turn around to other countries and say, "but you can't have them, because we enjoy the notion of your "primitive" cultural superiority and want to force you to preserve it, even if you'd enjoy an easier way of life." (not saying that is what you are saying, just using it to illustrate my point.) If people don't want these things, they will not indulge in them and traditional cultural practices will flourish.

If you are talking about establishing democractic governments, I feel we must do this. What is the alternative? Communism? Totalitarian regimes? Democratic countries tend towards prosperity and peace (especially with their neighbors and other democracies) and IMHO we should assist other countries down the democratic path. In order to do this in the Middle East we need to flush out the fundamentalists.

Interested to hear your thoughts!

Sparrow













__________________
www.scifichics.com
 
My thoughts are these. First and foremost violent attacks against another peoples ways of life should be condemned and the perpetrators brought to justice.

People will choose the government they want. If the majority of the people want democracy then they will demand democracy and get it, recent examples East Germany, the Soviet Union.

If people are of the minority in their wishes they will emigrate to where they feel at home. Charles Darwin described this as adapt, migrate or die.

We have no right to insert our way of life or build our regimes elsewhere in the world. If other people choose our way of life, welcome to the club.

As far as the reference to Hitler and the Jewish people he tried to exterminate, bad choice of historical example, the world indeed sat back and let him do just that. I spent a week in April in DC and visited the Holocaust museum a solemn reminder of pure evil.

It's amazing that when the a democrat was in the White House conservatives were upset about the UN usurping our national soveriegnty, now with the pendulum swinging the other way it's ok to usurp other nation's soveriegnty. (one of these days I got to learn how to spell that.)

Dave
 
we were not "foisting our way of life" on iraq until SADDAM HUSSEIN invaded our ALLY kuwait, with whom WE had a treaty of defense. he was defeated, and signed CEASE FIRE agreements which he REPEATEDLY broke. we were justified in reentering iraq at any time after he threw out the inspectors.

perhaps you should read the "iraqi liberation act of 1998" signed into law by bill clinton after hussein violated the cease fire agreement that ended the gulf war


http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/libera.htm


in which he clearly states that we are going to help the dissident faction of iraq overcome saddam hussein and were going to "help them back in to the community of nations", ie foist our way of life on them

i cant imagine the kind of cruel heart that sees people ground into the dust by polpots, castros, husseins, stalins, maos of the world and says "hey, if they didnt like it theyd change it or move, not my problem". you are obviously so spoiled by the safe free world you live in that you dont even think its remotely necessary to understand the circumstances that obtain in other countries.

you think the people of iraq "chose" to be ruled by saddam hussein??? you think they were free to move about as they wish? make money and save it in nice stable banks like you and just hop on a plane and leave? you must then think other countries dont need to have "our way of life" foisted on them because they already HAVE it. they do not.

in order for the people of a country to choose their leaders there have to be certain elements in place, political liberty, stable rule of law, private property rights vouchsafed by a judicial system based in predictable procedural due process and most importantly, a system of government in which the GOVERNMENT is answerable to the people, NOT the other way around. very few countries in the world have these elements and iraq had NONE of them.

the greatest examples ever of "foisting our way of life on people" was the resounding success of the marshall plan after world war 2. you think japan and west germany became stable, first world democracies overnight after the war ended? should we have left them under the yoke of nazi totalitarianism and the emperor? how far do you extend your sink-or-swim attitude? should the world have hassled south africa into ending apartheid?


the president of the US is the commander in chief of our armed forced. he is required to get the advice and consent of the US CONGRESS before going to war, NOT the "UN", and he DID. he laid out 26 reasons for going to war, only 2-3 of which dealt with WMD, and congress voted to authorize the war. see? thats how it works. the UN in an advisory body of diplomats that ATTEMPTS to solve world disputes with talk. it is NOT a world government that has a higher authority of the US than our own constitution. the UN is a made up, ideologically driven human instution of dubious genesis and short history. like the league of nations, it will be a distant memory one day
 
First off let me say that I am not speaking about Iraq specifically but more generally about the disaster that is the Middle East. IMHO we absolutely have the right to "foist" our way of life on others when they and their leaders, religious and otherwise, are fostering and encouraging radicals and terrorists who blatantly state that they are working for the death of the "great satan," us. We have a responsibilty to prevent that from happening. They are essentially attempting to usurp our way of life and I see nothing wrong with defending ourselves. We must be proactive here. (I could make the argument that if Clinton had been MORE proactive with this sort of thing we wouldn't be where we are now, post 9/11. Good domestic president IMHO but an international coward: just ask the Tutsi's). If we don't fight them there we will end up fighting them here. People have this notion that terrorism will go away if we simply adopt an isolationist philisophy. Bull. We could pull out of every country in Asia, both our military and culture, and Bin Laden and his cronies would *still* be after us. They would *still* be working for the establishment of the khalifah. That is what they want, and we are standing in their way, religiously and philosophically.

By that argument of not interfering, we should also not introduce any sort of help that smacks of cultural interference as well: vaccinations, birth control, equal rights literature etc. Isn't it funny too that many of these people are screaming for the US to mind its own business are also screaming for more of our money?

More I could say but I am off to a picnic.

Sparrow










__________________
www.scifichics.com
 
I live in the UK, about 1 hour and 20 minutes from London. To say this is disgusting is an understatement. Five days before the bombs went off i was in Cardiff, and all the town was closed due to a bomb scare.

When i turned on the TV and saw terror, fear and deaths all because of a few evil people it makes me sick. London really is a great place, where so many people, different colours, races, sexuality, live side by side, with little problems, and this happens.

I rarely watch the news due to this very topic, as i find it all very depressing.

I do not have a solution to stop this, but i pray that it ends, for good.

I
 
All politics aside, the murder of innocent men, women and children like that is despicable.

By the way, Ickle, a bunch of people have been posting, looking for you and wanting to know if you're ok. The post is on page 2 at this point, I think.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Our Newsletter

Get awesome content delivered straight to your inbox.

Top