Increasing numbers of child-free by choice people

Buttercup,
You missed my point--I don't think that there is no value in raising children. To the contrary, I think there is a lot of value in it--the problem is that far too many people who have children choose to do just that--have them vs raising them.

I choose not to have children. It is a choice made after much thought and consideration. Unfortunately, a number of people don't give much thought to the responsibilities having them brings. They expect special services and priviledges--not for their children, but for themselves.

I am four-square for paying my tax dollars to educate and provide public service for them--the kids, that is. It is the poor examples of parenting seen all too frequently with which I take issue.
Maribeth
 
Trevor...

This is an economic fact here in France, and this is called "solidarity" : people who are working pay for retired people, and, if I am still here in a few decades, my future children and my neighbour future children will pay for me. This is a concept of social solidarity in France, and it's the same with our social security. We all pay for each other, no matter if you're never ill and won't benificiate for it.
Anyway, apart from being selfish or not, isn't it all about love you give and responsability for us and for others ?
 
RE: Trevor...

Karina: I'm curious, but I keep hearing reports that many countries like France, Germany, Italy and especially Japan are coming up with lots of problems because the population growth has fallen below replacement levels. I've read news articles to that effect and also that there is increasing problems between the native population and the large amounts of immigrants that are outpacing the natives in population growth. I've also seen that Sweden has introduced a cash payment of $5,000 for every child a woman gives birth to to stimulate the population growth. This is what I hear in the US, and I think it is fairly underreported, if true. Can you give me any insight on whether these news accounts are accurate or not?
 
Maribeth: As long as we have children (and I, for one, though I feel quite alone in this sentiment, hope that we always do) we will have people who think somebody or other is not a good parent. I'm sure there are plenty of occasions where you could point to me and say "Goodness, but that woman is a lousy mother." Personally I don't think I'm a lousy mother (of course! Ha, ha!) but, in any given situation anyone can find fault with anyone's parenting skills. And free will being what it is, you could be just about perfect as a parent and still have children who make awful decisions.

But, bottom line, children are our future. No children and our society dies off. That is fact. Sure, there will be losers, drug addicts, Ted Bundys, rapists, murderers etc. in the new batch. They are after all human, too (though some on this thread seem a little reluctant to acknowledge that). But I know the vast majority will lead quite normal and good lives. Some may find them a little too ordinary and boring and maybe having to work "crappy" jobs, but I personally like ordinary and "boring" since I probably fall in that category to most other people (trust me, I don't find my own life ordinary and boring, but then probably no one else does either).

Again, what disturbs me about this overall thread is how blithely a lot of posters air their misanthropy. I mean, if I used the same amount of vitriol towards blacks, gays, women, latinos, etc. there would be much justified outrage. But for some reason it is okay if it is directed toward the younger members of our society. Go figure.
 
Buttercup,
Again I think you miss my point--I have no hatred directed towards children. I don't feel any attraction to nor desire for a baby, period. That doesn't mean I think everybody should think the same way.

I also know nobody is perfect. However, if you choose to have a child, you should know ahead of time there are major sacrifices to be made--anyone not willing shouldn't reproduce. A kid deserves the very best in terms of loving and attentive parents. If an adult is too selfish to give the very best, then be selfless and don't have any.

I don't think our society will die out anytime soon--far too many pairs replace themselves many times over by having more than two children.
Maribeth
 
RE: Trevor...

As I had my daughter in Germany a few years ago, I got three months maternity leave (you have to stop working 6 weeks before due date)with full pay, after that I received about $400 from the government which lasted for three years. The employer is obliged to give you a job with the same pay after three years (not necessarily the same position). There are basically no limits for sick leave if your kids are sick. The father can take the maternity leave/three years to raise them instead of the mother.

Germans have a very low birthrate and it seems the immigrants are taking over the country (it's a lot worse over there than here in the U.S.) Housing is expensive and there are waiting lists for appartments.

With all those benefits, Germans cannot afford kids. Small appartments, bad schools, expensive cost of living are taking a toll on Germans. My brother doesn't have any kids either.
 
We all have to live our lives for ourselves and not worry about being judged by other people. Many people have told me that I should have had more children than two but my husband and I felt that we didnt want any more. I'm happy with my decision to have my children but I can respect the people who choose not to make that life time commitment. We're very fortunate to live in a time where birth control makes it possible for us to live the way we want.

Was I the only one offended by the term "Breeders" applied to people who have children in the article?
 
I just wanted to comment as those remarks stated that people who chose not to have kids are selfish. So does that make people like Mother Teresa and the Dalai Lama selfish? It would be great if everyone respected everyone else's lifestyle choices. No one is obligated to have kids for their survival; having kids only ensures that there is a future human generation. Why is it we have to limit the amount of cats and dogs and other animals in this world through spaying and neutering but we don't apply the same population control measures to our own species? Are we the only species on this planet that has a right to overpopulate and take over every piece of available land and resources?
 
I just wanted to comment as those remarks stated that people who chose not to have kids are selfish. So does that make people like Mother Teresa and the Dalai Lama selfish? It would be great if everyone respected everyone else's lifestyle choices. No one is obligated to have kids for their survival; having kids only ensures that there is a future human generation. Why is it we have to limit the amount of cats and dogs and other animals in this world through spaying and neutering but we don't apply the same population control measures to our own species? Are we the only species on this planet that has a right to overpopulate and take over every piece of available land and resources?
 
Ya know.....

I hate to keep this monster of a thread going but how clear can I make my stance on this? Since the word selfish was used mostly, maybe exclusively, by me, I will assume others who post that they are offended by that word are talking to me.
I think I stated above that you can make a case, depending on your viewpoint, that either side in this argument can be called selfish to some degree or other. I stick by that.
However, if you are going to compare people who choose to be childless because kids might get in the way of their lifestyle to Mother Theresa, then you are really grasping for straws. There is a difference between not having kids and giving your entire life up to try to help mankind, and not having kids so you can have an easier time pursuing your own interests and individual happiness. Anyone who cannot see that is really not thinking clearly in my mind.
Now that's my opinion and I am trying to be respectful. So, if you wanna take issue with me, please read and understand my posts above. Man.....
Trevor :)
 
RE: Ya know.....

What, pray tell, is selfish about recognizing that one does not have the qualities it takes to successfully raise a child and refusing to settle for doing a mediocre job of it?

For that matter, what is wrong with someone wanting something in life instead of a child? What is it about those of us who choose not to have them and refuse to have our rights as individuals trampled on that sets parents on rants worse than those of the Terrible Twos?
Maribeth
 
RE: Ya know.....

Maybe the difference is seeing mankind as something more or seeing mankind as merely like cats and dogs whose population must be controlled.

And where, pray tell, have your rights been trampled on by "breeders?"
 
RE: Ya know.....

Maribeth,
I am just saying don't even compare it to Mother Theresa. I was posting to someone else's response.
I really don't see how your rights being trampled on has anything to do with kids but it's your opinion. If ya wanna be childless go 4 it. Just don't get up in parent's faces about how you are getting screwed ok? It's almost like you all want to form your own special interest group or something ala the homosexuals.
If you wanna be concerned about your rights you should be looking elsewhere believe me. Because I guarantee virtually everyone here is being watched in some form or other by the government. If you use a computer you are being watched, believe me. That should concern you more than the pathetic tax break we get that you don't get. By the way that money goes back into the economy I believe, in many cases anyway. I mean other than that what is it? Did some kid drop his ice cream on your shoe or something and you're now thinking you're being screwed and owed something? This thread is 18 miles long and I still don't get what you all on the childless side want. Define, in list format, all of the rights you think you are supposed to have that are being violated because of people with kids. I am serious. Do that and we can go down the list in a logical way. But don't even think about listing tax break or flex time arguments on there because those two don't even hold water with me.
Please, make a list. I will respectfully look at each item on such a list and think about each thing you name.
Trevor :)
 
I really think terms.....

like "breeders" and "unbelievers" are terms that someone pulled out of a sci-fi book somewhere and started using them behind a cause because they thought they were futuristic and cool sounding words.
Anyone calls me either of these things to my face and I will kick their teeth down their throat, I swear it.
Trevor :)
 
RE: Ya know.....

I have to presume you mean people who have reproduced when you refer to "breeders". There are some groups who refer to heterosexual couples in general as "breeders"--DH and I are a hetero couple, but are not planning to reproduce.

When have my rights been abused by parents--let's see...when a patient's daughter uses our waiting room as her playpen, setting up her infant, numerous toys and blankets on the floor, blocking the way for other patients and clinical staff, in airplanes when parents don't control their kids and there are hours of incessant seat kicking, leaning over the seat into the space in front or behind them, the children who run through retail facilities snatching everything within reach off shelves, throwing them in the floor, the parents who insist on bringing toddlers to weddings even though the couple requests that no children under 12 be present, the parents who think that it is appropriate to bring young children to upscale restaurants at 10pm or later and the tired child shrieks the entire time...should I go on?

And overpopulation is overpopulation, whether by animals of the four-legged variety or those of the two legged sort. Neither can go unchecked as long as there are ones--animals and children--without loving families to care for them.
 
RE: Ya know.....

Trevor,
See the above for a beginning of the list. Again, my issue is with PARENTS, not the children. And nobody is getting in parents' faces for being parents--it's for having children and NOT parenting them that I and others like me get ticked. There are plenty of good parents out there--we just don't hear them spouting self-congratulatory dreck or whining martyrdom over the sacrifices they make.

As long as I don't have to tolerate the result of your or any other person who has chosen to reproduce's irresponsibility, I'm fine. However, why should I have to sacrifice my peace, quiet and enjoyment to put up with the annoyance of a child whose parents are either too lax to teach proper behavior or too selfish to keep the child away from places where their misbehavior is majorly disruptive?

"Ala the homosexuals??" So what's wrong with people of a certain sexual orientation forming groups to protect their rights as well? Their rights to pursuit of happiness will most certainly be trampled should a constitutional amendment be passed banning same sex marriages.
Maribeth
 
RE: Ya know.....

Maribeth,
Every situation you named here has happened to me and was actually done by some adult a-hole. Inconsiderate adults do the same things, believe me. I almost killed a guy on a business trip once because his goddamn lap top was halfway over onto my seating area.
And anyway, these are all public places. I didn't realize we all had a right to have a clean retail store. LOL! I admit the parents of these kids in these situations should have shown better judgement/parental skills but I don't really think it's your "right" to not have these inconveniences when you go out in public, yes PUBLIC, places. We all have to deal with inconveniences everyday in public because of our fellow man. It's part of the deal I am afraid.
It's also my opinion, as I said above, that these situations are just small potatoes compared to bigger issues, such as how much alot of these kids will give back to society as adults. Hell, one of those kids may cure a disease you come up with as you get older. Compare that with the very minor things you mentioned. I don't believe they stack up. It's about the bigger picture, not about who blocked the shoe department at the mall.
Trevor
:)
 
RE: Ya know.....

Ok Maribeth, I will actually agree with your first paragraph. LOL! Dang did the world end or what? :)
Again as I stated above, I understand your beef with certain parents. But we put up with the same stuff in public from adults too.
You know, people in here were complaining about the tax "break", and this flex time issue, and those were the ones that really set me off. Your grievances, like the messed up retail store, kind of delve into the bad parenting arena. And you do have a point like I said. But like I said above, I think going into public nowadays actually deprives us of certain things we'd like to see a certain way. And adults are as bad as kids in that regard, perhaps worse.
I am not even going to start up a homosexual thread. This one wears me out! LOL!
My problem with any group like that is they rail and whine about wanting to be like the rest of us, all the while CALLING ATTENTION TO THEMSELVES, and actually making themselves more separate in the process. If you want to be gay fine, but keep it to yourself. Especially something like that which actually goes against the natural order of things.
I'm done with the arguing everyone. Time to get back to fitness...
Trevor
:)
 
RE: Ya know.....

Can we PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE not get this duscussion going in another direction? I'm sure many of us have strong opinions regarding Homosexuality, but THIS IS NOT THE PLACE TO DISCUSS IT! Please. PM each other! It's going to get locked if you go into this, I'm sure. It would be an interesting and emotional thread, I'm sure, but just don't bring it here! (Trevor, I know you were saying you didn't want to get started--I'm not blaming either of you! )

Thanks,
 
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