I'm sorry, I have to ask...

You know, I'm no fan of Palin (truthfully her voice is like nails on a chalkboard to me), but I actually think there has been much more focus on her "gaffs" than on Biden's. CNN did a piece on this the other day--I think Wednesday but like so many others here I've been glued to the TV so it's all running together now--& they showed a few clips of Biden that had never been aired that shocked the daylights outta me. So, in trying to be fair & somewhat objective (b/c the inherent Yankee liberal in me will never allow me to be completely objective ;)) I do think she's been unfairly treated by the media.

That said, I'm not very happy w/any of the candidates. I remember how excited I was in '92 when Clinton was running (perhaps a consequence of being a young, enthusiastic college student), I was just CRAZY for Clinton, but while I find this election the most fascinating in my lifetime, of the 4 candidates Obama is the only one I truly believe can move our country forward in a positive way. And I don't even much like him--I find him arrogant & patronizing--but I also think he's brilliant & if any of these 4 candidates can fix what's broke in the US it's him.
 
All I have to say is "Mr. Tinkles for President!"

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hottiescientist said:
Where did the MSNBC polls have Palin winning? Do you have a link? I thought I saw 75% in Biden's favor. Is it on TV? And on FoxNews.com I see Biden winning too. But those polls are unscientific anyway. I would really love to see scientific polls...The CNN/Opinion Research Corporation survey which only took responses from people who watched the debate said that "fifty-one percent of those polled thought Biden did the best job in Thursday night's debate, while 36 percent thought Palin did the best job" but also said "the folksy Palin was more likable, scoring 54 percent to Biden's 36 percent" but that was still right after the debate. I'm curious what will happen after the dust settles.
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It was at 5am this morning, and I checked the website, and their article had Palen winning. Maybe polls more recent to this came out, because I would never guess that MSNBC would have her winning, quite the contrary.
 
hiitdogs said:
I don't think you are stupid, Dorothy!!!!!! To me you come across as very smart, your posts are well thought out and you make some very good points. I believe Sarah Palin is smart, I just think she is out of her league, was thrown in the national spotlight without much preperation and I don't like how her own campaign is treating her, keeping her away from the press. I believe they should have handled it differently and let her get comfortable by first talking to more conservative leaning members of the press, instead of throwing her "the wolves" on limited occassions. Although I didn't perceive Katie Couric as being unfair. Tough but not unfair. I think any politician who wants to be elected into as high an office needs to be able to handle tough questions.

That being said, I think if any journalist had asked questions of Sarah Palin the way Bill O'Reilly conducted his interview with Barack Obama, all hell would have broken loose.
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Carola, we agree, they are "handling" Sarah, and I think that is a big problem. Sometimes being tooo conservative is a big problem. I missed the O'Reilly interview, I don't watch him very often.
 
Biden and Palin were at their best. Biden has swam with and BEEN a shark, and he seemed very genuinely to like her friendliness and I believe good heart...Having said that, of course Biden won - he has 30 years and he and McCain get along well, always have, and have compromised over the years which is what we need.
I was relieved to hear words of tolerance from Palin.
I was relieved to hear moderation from Biden.

Thought it was a good debate....and at this point, we need the pendulam to swing back again, so Barack is probably the best choice...then when things get over regulated and the middle class is prosperous again, we're out of a costly war, have renewable less polluting cancer causing sources of energy (ya want them nuclear plants in YOUR town, or the drilling off YOUR beach? well, I don't) we can start worrying about gay marriage, flag burning and all those critical issues again! Seriously, there is a time and place for all philosophies.....them damn liberals - gave women the vote, allowed black folks to ride the bus,aid to education for middle class kids like me, gave us social security and medicare - here we go again, more perks for the working class -what's the world coming to? But then again - national defense, against bizarre regimes, strong sense of saving and hard work,personal responsibility - them conservative values - they'll ruin us too!
SANITY and BALANCE - How I long for a return to rational thought, where intelligence is valued!!!!

And know what - McCain or Obama- I think things will be better....

So,maybe I'll buy STS on advancedworkouts next year!!!
 
Gayle said:
About last night...after I heard her mispronounce NUCLEAR my ears started to bleed...
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I know! You could have made a drinking game out of it.

I started counting them. She said it wrong like 8 times in less then 45 seconds. My husband started laughing and left the room to play Team Fortress, then he came back to report that people in the game were cracking on her for mispronouncing it.

I hate it when people pronounce nuclear "new-cue-leer" instead of "new-clear". Why do they always insert an extra syllable?
 
Did anyone else hear Palin call him O'Biden?

I don't think Palin did well at all. I found the excessive winking rather smarmy and her "folksiness" comes off as insulting to me.

Biden was much more focused and reserved than I thought he would be. I think he did a good job.
 
Wow, I'm so impressed, no hurling of insults!! See, ladies, I knew we could do it! :)

One thing that occurred to me today (well, I think it's occurred to me before, but I really only put it into words today)...

I'm concerned that the American people seem to be unable (unwilling?) to separate candidates' personalities from their qualifications or the candidates' personal lives from their professional lives. And not just in this election.

For instance, say what you will about Al Gore... the man has the personality of a cardboard box, but he could run circles around George W. Bush on every issue, domestic or foreign, in 2000. I don't think there's any way that anyone could really make a credible argument that Bush was more qualified in ANY area, but people fell for his charm and personality and proceeded to vote that way.

Then in 2004, the same thing happened. People didn't feel warm and fuzzy about Kerry, so a lot of people went with the more personable Bush, despite the fact that Bush was already slipping in approval ratings.

Now in 2008, we're facing the same issue! People complain about how Obama/Biden doesn't have the same appeal as McCain/Palin (mostly because of Palin, because McCain is no fuzzy teddy bear).

My problem with this is that I've worked with a lot of people that are friendly, personable, liked by tons of people, approachable... and completely worthless in the workplace. They fiddle around all day, have no work ethic, and are generally useless. (I think probably everyone knows at least ONE of these types.) They get buy on their likeability and therefore see no need to actually WORK or learn how to do anything worthwhile.

Conversely, I work in an environment that attracts a great many "nerds" who have zero personality and bupkus for interpersonal skills but can solve complex issues in an efficient, precise manner and who need NO prodding to get anything done at work.

Which one would I rather have working with me on a tough project? I think my answer is fairly obvious.

When did personality start mattering so much more than someone's actual ABILITY or QUALIFICATION for the job?

Also food for thought... the last Democratic candidate with an abundance of "personality" (that I can recall) was Bill Clinton. Why is it that when a man is charming (especially if he's a Democrat) and flashy and smiley, he's described as smarmy, but when a woman is charming and flirty with the camera, it's somehow cute and played up as a plus?

Just a thought.

MC
 
MC, I really think you are making a lot of assumptions. I do not like Al Gore or John Kerry's politics, and the thought of lots of government intervention makes me cringe. It has nothing to do with whether a person charms me. Most of us are like that. Bill Clinton is charming, and I could not stand him. I respect that you have a differing opinion, just pointing out that I don't believe people are voting charm, they are voting for their beliefs.

If Sarah Palin had choked up like Biden did last night....they would have crucified her for it, a woman crying...look what happened when Hillary did that, she got crucified. So there is a double standard, but not where you think.

Just because Palin is not the HArvard educated slick talking lawyer does not mean she does not have brains. She has done a lot with her education, and driven herself to learn a lot in the last 5 weeks. I imagine she did the same in Alaska to achieve what she has achieved there. I see her as a new face, outside of the old guard of Washington, a go getter, someone who perhaps will not get swayed and corrupted, who will do what it takes to learn, and get the job done.

I believe many of you see Obama the same way, so should understand why she has appeal. Just my 2 cents.
 
Dorothy,

Well, you raise some interesting points, but I was very glued to a LOT of the political shows and election coverage before each of those elections (2000, 2004, and now this one), and the NUMBER ONE complaint that I heard voiced more than anything else about Gore and Kerry was their lack of personality. I heard a lot of the same from people I work with/around (I work for the Department of Defense, so practically everything that happens in the political arena-- especially internationally-- becomes a major discussion at work.)

I never said Palin was stupid. I simply said she's likeable but a I find her severely, scarily underqualified for such a huge responsibility. I think she's learned a lot in the last five weeks, but I would personally be terrified to put my nation in the hands of someone who's learned everything she knows about US and international policy on a broad scale from flash cards over the last 35 days.

I think she's brilliant and gutsy (even though I am completely against absolutely everything she espouses) but I don't think she's ready to take on the world yet. In 4 years, that may be different, but I don't think any nation is going to take us seriously with her as the VP or, God forbid the worst happens, President.

I was just making a point that I think a LOT of people really focus on personality over substance (which I think was shown last night in the debate... Biden = more substance, less charm; Palin = less substance, more charm-- and let's not fool ourselves, that was very shrewdly calculated on her part). I know there is obviously more to it than that (beliefs, etc), but I was simply calling attention to that. I think few people would disagree that if Palin were a man, McCain's bid for president would be in serious jeopardy right now.

MC
 
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MC - I think you raise a good point in that many people do not vote based on much more than who they find likeable or even who they find more attractive. In a democracy you get that, but I still believe and hope that the majority of voters are voting based on more substantial thought than that.

In this election year - I also hope that people are not voting for or against a candidate based on their gender or race, but I suspect that is also a factor for some voters.

As for Clinton being seen as smarmy - I think that had more to do with the fact that he was an adulterer than the fact that he was charming. It's all how you use the charm you have. :)
 
MC -- I agree with you that there are a lot of people the personality of someone versus their qualifications or abilities. The fact remains, despite that I'm a strongly committed Democray and a lot more left than Obama is, I actually thought McCain narrowly won the previous debate "on points" (as in like a boxing match, not substance). I actually sighed and turned to my DH and told him how saddened I was that Obama had such a non-performance when it was done. But lo and behold, the next morning, I'm seeing polls across the web saying that Obama won because he appeared "more presidential." Not because of what he said, but because he was frankly more polite. (I am NOT saying that he isn't presidential because of what he said, but the polls were indicating that people were annoyed with McCain's grumpiness and sarcasm than saying that either one had a stronger grasp on the issue.) I don't think people vote solely on it. In fact, I think in such an important election, people will turn to see how the candidates are on issues more than any other election in a long time...but old habits die hard, you know? It's hard to fight off first impressions -- especially ones you make for someone else!
 
dorothyrd said:
MC, I really think you are making a lot of assumptions. I do not like Al Gore or John Kerry's politics, and the thought of lots of government intervention makes me cringe. It has nothing to do with whether a person charms me. Most of us are like that. Bill Clinton is charming, and I could not stand him. I respect that you have a differing opinion, just pointing out that I don't believe people are voting charm, they are voting for their beliefs.

If Sarah Palin had choked up like Biden did last night....they would have crucified her for it, a woman crying...look what happened when Hillary did that, she got crucified. So there is a double standard, but not where you think.

Just because Palin is not the HArvard educated slick talking lawyer does not mean she does not have brains. She has done a lot with her education, and driven herself to learn a lot in the last 5 weeks. I imagine she did the same in Alaska to achieve what she has achieved there. I see her as a new face, outside of the old guard of Washington, a go getter, someone who perhaps will not get swayed and corrupted, who will do what it takes to learn, and get the job done.

I believe many of you see Obama the same way, so should understand why she has appeal. Just my 2 cents.
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I was thinking all day about the debate and actually watched it again - yeah, I know, I should get a life :p Looking at Joe Biden choking up, I think it was for real and that's why he didn't get slammed on it. I don't think any fair minded person minds a guy or a woman choking up, if they feel it is real and not for show.

Me personally, charm doesn't sway me, authenticity does. And if I had the choice between someone who is on the opposite spectrum of my political views but I perceive as authentic and someone who agrees with my political views but is nasty and putting on a show, I would vote for the person who represents my opposite views.

I guess my problem with Sarah Palin is that I perceive her as canned, I am not sure about who she really is. I don't like what I hear from her in her stump speeches, the convention and at to a lesser degree at the debate, it is very condenscending and demeaning, it seems like her answers are the result of talking points "hammered" into her head by the McCain campaign. I think McCain's campaign is doing her a real disservice. Maybe if the real Sarah Palin showed up, it would change my opinion of her. However, her "charm offensive" with the folksy talk and winking was absolutely wasted on me. But then again, I don't think I am part of her target group.

How she is "handled" by the McCain campaign doesn't say much about Sarah Palin but it tells me everything about McCain. They are using her as a "prop". For crying out loud, they didn't even tell her that they are pulling out of Michigan. I strongly believe that the one and only reason why she was chosen was to galvanize the pro-life base and to appeal to disgruntled Hillary supporters.

She clearly is a smart lady, she couldn't have rosen to be the governor of Alaska if she wasn't. But at this point I think she is out of her league when it comes to an understanding of national economics and foreign affairs. In all fairness to her, she has only been thrown into this 5 weeks ago and despite of being a quick study no one could learn what takes other people several years.

In her interview with Carl Cameron of Fox News she said that she was "annoyed" with Katie Couric because she didn't get asked the questions she wanted to be asked. She wanted to get asked about Obama. I don't know but where I stand candidates for political office should be able to handle questions that they are unprepared for. Obama can answer those questions, Biden can and McCain can. The last time I had a job interview, I didn't get asked the questions that I wanted to hear. Last time I checked if someone gets voted into office, they may have to talk to other foreign leaders or national business people and she can't just deal with what she wants to deal with.

The reason why I like Obama is because I perceive him as authentic and I feel that despite of a fairly short length of political experience he has a thourogh grasp on issues, he can talk about issues in a way that I know he understands it and he can think on his feet. Plus he stays calm and collected, even under fire.

Even if I was swayed by Sarah Palin's charm or intellect, I wouldn't vote for that ticket because I am totally taken aback by the nastiness I have heard over the past several weeks from Sen. McCain, his erratic behavior and his volatile temperament. Now, I realize that someone else could look at the same candidates and come to a different conclusion and I respect that. We all have different ways of looking at things and how we perceive people.
 
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I watched the debate with my husband, and there were certain parts, where we looked at each other, and said "she's kicking his butt", but after a while, Palin seemed to get repetitive, and I also couldn't get past her mispronouncing the word Nuclear, over and over.

Ok, I always say I must have A.D.D., because at the end of the interview when their families came on stage, I could not take my eyes off Palin's little daughter carrying her baby brother around. My husband and I both thought the kid was going to drop the baby at any minute, and Palin seemed oblivious. Is it just me? The baby was definitely too big for such a little girl to be carrying him around up and down the stairs. You could tell she was struggling with him, lol. Ok, I'm sorry, this is probably out of place, but it just really caught my attention and after that, I missed anything that was said, lol.
 
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