Defending Her Honor

Ahem, if I may clarify:

I did not say Hillary lost due to sexism (nor did most of the other posters), I (and many other posters) said that her treatment by the media was sexist. Comments about her appearance, attire, emotional stability, voice, laugh etc. had ZERO place in the campaign. If comments had been made about Obama by the media about such areas, they would have immediately been identified and vilified as racist and completely inappropriate. So, please don't tell me to "get over" Hillary losing. She lost in the voting booth which is what counts in the end. There are other Catheites like me who are also diehard political junkies and I heard plenty of sexist remarks from Chris Matthews and Keith Olbermann along with others on MSNBC/CNN. Even on leftwing websites, how many anti-Hillary comments on the Daily Kos referred to her hips, wrinkles, cackle etc? As though being thin, botoxed and possessing a tinkling laugh are necessary traits for the presidency. Disagree with her positions, her experience, her "baggage", but spare me the gender soaked commentary!

Perhaps you missed the video entitled "Hillary as coffee klutz" posted on msnbc.com's home page before the Indiana primary. Gee, let's portray this brilliant woman as a dimwitted dame who can't figure out which button to push out of 75 on some gas station cappucino machine. SEXIST! (You bet I emailed them protesting it and they took it down.) Did you see NY Times columnist Maureen Dowd reference to Hillary and her "icepick." SEXIST!

To ignore the comments and articles posted above and claim you never heard anything/read anything sexist actually proves you tune out such remarks because they are so rampant.

Likewise to say, "Oh well, if she wants to run with the boys, she'll get hit like one" Well, for cripessakes, they weren't hitting the other boys like they were hitting her! We wouldn't be "whining" if they made similarly ridiculous comments about the other MALE candidates. Hillary wasn't my choice because she was a woman but because of what she brought as a candidate. I said I'd vote for Obama in the GE and I will, but again, only because of the Supreme Court.

Jonahnah
Chocolate IS the answer, regardless of the question.
 
I am just wondering why no one was disturbed by Obama's life long friend the seemingly racist reverend Wright? I hate to cry guilt by association here but sheesh. That whole ordeal left a bad taste in my mouth it did.

Oh dear I probably should not have posted that, but I still agree that both candidates played the sexism/racist card when they felt they needed to.

PS> I do not like McCain either.

;) I vote for Beavs.
 
The Wright think was distasteful, no doubt, and I am not an Obama fan for many reasons. That said, I don't think there is any evidence that Obama is or has ever been a screaming racist. Naturally his experience and points of view are colored by his being biracial. Many have speculated that his joining that church had more to do with ambition and political dreams than with his own personal beliefs. This I can totally believe. What does bother me is that he and his campaign used the moronic excuse that he didn't know Wright was like that, he'd never heard those statements from the pulpit, blah blah. Please - do we have "stupid" stamped on our collective foreheads? Obama was trying to shake this Wright guy off his leg *months* before the story broke. Give me a break, he didn't know.

I predict that Obama's biggest problem though is going to be his wife.

Just one woman's opinion.

Sparrow




"The winds of grace are always blowing but it's you who must raise your sail." - Sri Ramakrishna
 
I'd vote for Beavs, too. Get on the ballot, girl!!! :p

He was not his life long friend, he was his pastor. I am equally as outraged by Rev. Wright and Father Pfleger as I am by John Hagee, Ron Parsley and those other clowns who preach hatred from the pulpit and other places. I just don't believe in guilt by association, I don't believe that either Sen. Obama nor Sen McCain agree with what those sorry excuses of a Christian preacher ramble off.

Liann, Quote HRC: "It does seem as though the press at least is not as bothered by the incredible vitriol that has been engendered by comments and reactions of people who are nothing but misogynists."

Similar comments were made by Bill Clinton, referring to the "boys beating up on her because she is a girl"

Nevertheless, the gender card was played by the Clinton camp when it fit the agenda, i.e. saying that she was running to break the glass ceiling, blatently playing to the female audience. Not to mention the Geraldine Ferrarro's remarks, or that several feminist group guests on TV said that HRC should be elected BECAUSE she is a woman. Voting for someone based on gender is sexist, and sexist goes both ways.

How is it that HRC was the front runner for so long, is it that there was no sexism 18 months ago and then we reverted to being overwhelmingly sexist? If this country is so rampant sexist, dooming women to play subordinate roles in politics, how come we have 8 female governors and in contrast, only a total of 2 African American governors in US history? We have a female speaker of the House.

Now, I wouldn't claim for one second that sexism is extinct in this country. It is alive and well, as is racism, and one would have to be purposely oblivious not to notice it. There have been some exceedingly silly stories about HRC in the media and stupid remarks have been made, i.e. BHO saying to HRC "you are likeable enough", the Annie Oakley comment, John Edwards commenting on HRC's coat, some talking heads commenting on Sen. Clinton's cleavage, etc. Those were as stupid as the remarks about Sen. Obama in his bathing suit, HRC asking if Sen. Obama needed a pillow, or comments about John Edwards $ 400 hair cut. PAAALEASE, how is that newsworthy.

But yes, sexist remarks were made in reference to Hillary Clinton and I find that VERY sad and unacceptable. There are some Hillary Clinton haters and sexist knuckleheads out there who will take any excuse.

I am sorry, calling someone "sweetie" or "dear" is just not sexist in my book. I think we have become so overly politically correct that we dissect everything and anything for possible underlying offensive.

How is it sexist when Obama said that Clinton is not only throwing the kitchen sink but now the china is flying and the kitchen buffet is coming at him too? The kitchen is no longer only a woman's domain, and in fact, one Clinton aide called the new strategy, the kitchen sink fussilade.

How is it sexist that Obama said that periodically when Sen. Clinton feels down the attacks increase. I don't know if it would refer to "periodically" or "feeling down", or both. Periodically doesn't only refer to the female cycle, and feeling down, well, geeh, my DH is feeling down right now because he will probably be losing his job and I am pretty darn sure he is male.

Or my absolute favorite, one reporter calling it sexist when BHO said that he "doesn't want to play this tit for tat game". HELLO, the expression means equivalent retalation, it does in no way, shape or form refer to a female body part.

I am just wondering, Elaine (toughYrun), are you equally outraged by a McCain supporter asking him "So, how are we going to beat the b*tch" and John McCain just giggling. Or Sen. McCain's "joke" about Chelsea Clinton "Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly? Because Janet Reno is her father" and calling his wife a "trollop" and "c**t" in front of other people?
 
>Sen. McCain's "joke" about Chelsea Clinton "Why is Chelsea
>Clinton so ugly? Because Janet Reno is her father" and calling
>his wife a "trollop" and "c**t" in front of other people? J

ZOIKS! Had not heard those last ones. Carola, would you mind sourcing so I can read more about it? THANKS!

Sparrow

"The winds of grace are always blowing but it's you who must raise your sail." - Sri Ramakrishna
 
Sparrow,

I agree with you 100 percent about well, everything you wrote, I never thought of it like that, but you might just be right. It just left a bad taste is all. I do not like the fact the Obama camp acted like they had no clue the dear reverend spoke and preached that nonsense either.

I agree about Obama's wife. Do not like her energy at all! She seems to be a very unpleasant lady in more ways than one.

BYW, it that comment is in fact true, how very horrible!:eek: Shame on McCain.
 
Carola - I am far from a Clinton supporter! I do not like her or Obama. I'm pretty much dissillusioned with the candidates in general. But as a woman, I was pretty sickened by the way Hillary was treated in general. I never said anything about Obama though. (I will admit that if he called me "sweetie", I'd probably slap him, but I don't think him calling a reporter that has anything to do with Clinton.) I was more appalled at how the news media handled her. But like Jonahnah said, I do not think that sexism or racism had ANYTHING to do with the final outcome. I just think it shows that we have a LONG way to go.

p.s. I have NO idea what the heck Clinton was saying in that quote? I'm assuming something to the affect of the media ignoring sexist attacks on her? Has she come out and said that is why she lost though? Now her husband's quote didn't surprise me at all. It's good old Billy boy making a lame arse attempt to defend his wife. As if he has any room to talk about how men treat woman! ;)

p.s.s. Carola - I really am enjoying this discussion. I'm not on a soap box or anything. Just wanted to make sure you knew that! I didn't want a "tone" to come across on this post that I didn't intend! :) I think this entire thread has actually been very interesting especially since I am totally up in the air about who I am voting for.
 
"I am just wondering, Elaine (toughYrun), are you equally outraged by a McCain supporter asking him "So, how are we going to beat the b*tch" and John McCain just giggling. Or Sen. McCain's "joke" about Chelsea Clinton "Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly? Because Janet Reno is her father" and calling his wife a "trollop" and "c**t" in front of other people?"

Carola, I assume you are asking because I stated that I am conservative and that you must assume then that my anger is directed only at liberals who made unsavory sexist comments. If you watched the montage linked to in the NYT article then surely you noted that conservatives and liberals alike had a field day with Clinton. I didn't hear the comments you mentioned but yes, if true, then they are equally outrageous. My thoughts about this have nothing whatsoever to do with conservative versus liberal but with standing up for what is right. I'm glad that Clinton's power seems to have diminished, if it ever existed at all, but I think it's just *wrong* the way she was treated. I understand that Clinton is not universally loved and fully expected her to be attacked during a very, very close race. However, I would expect those attacks to preclude sexist comments and jokes.
 
>>It's so disturbing that the search
>>"assassinate Obama" has been in the top 100 google searches.
>


I didn't know that either. There are just so many ignorant people in this world who don't have a clue and unfortunately these people will be voting this November. Sad. Sigh.
 
>To ignore the comments and articles posted above and claim you never heard anything/read anything sexist actually proves you tune out such remarks because they are so rampant. <

I am not "ignoring" anything. I just guess I tend to not be so overly sensitive about every single remark that is made. I don't promote this self-policing attitude either. Geez, if we get to the point where we have to walk on eggshells before making any kind of editorial comments, then what's the point??? People are not robots. There are bound to be remarks that can be construed as sexist or racist or WHATEVER, but I am not about to piece all of these remarks taken out of context to weave a quilt of controversy and call it sexism. Oh, no, my friend, I'm not IGNORING anything. I read, I listen, I research... I'm a smart girl. I just suppose that I decipher things with a less angry and jaded perspective.

And I will say it once again. Get over it and move on. She lost.
 
Elaine, I was asking because the original post was almost exclusively referring to liberal/democratic pundits and some democratic politicians. And I was wondering if you only referred to the original post and the NY Times article, I didn't notice the NY Times article montage link. Thanks for letting me know.

OMG, I think I have to take back what I said before!!! I guess America is more rampant sexist than I would have believed. Wow!!! I guess my recommendation that I have extended to other people to do research before commenting is true for me too. Arrogance comes before the fall, I do apologize to everyone I have offended with my ignorance! And in particular to Elaine for jumping to conclusions - I am really sorry.

That being said, I still don't find the comments that were made by Sen. Obama particularly sexist, some were stupid - YES!! However, I do find Sen. McCain's remarks and demeanor deplorable, which is why - among other reasons - he lost all credibility in my view.

As bad as these sexist remarks about Hillary Clinton are, I still find some reports as it pertains to Sen. Obama's middle name, his religion, race, lack of patriotism/anti-americanism, comparing him to Hitler, etc. equaly offensive. And the pictures of him in a bathing suit or a traditional African "dress" are not particularly flattering either.

Liann, I didn't for one minute think there was a "tone" in your posts. I enjoy discussion and whereas I usually have a point of view (which I am sure comes as a shock to all of you :p ), I am open to other points of view, and yes, occassionally change my mind or revise my opinion.
 
While on the topic of gender bias, I thought some of you might be interested in taking an Implicit Association Test. Try the one on Gender-Career:

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/demo/selectatest.html

As published in Malcolm Gladwell's Blink, the site offers many other tests to measure our unconscious biases. If I recall correctly, each takes about 10 minutes. Fascinating.

[font face="bradley hand itc" size=+2]~Cathy[/font]

http://s228.photobucket.com/albums/ee296/runninteach/exercise/th_SnowBunny_tns.jpg
http://img16.glitterfy.com/53/glitterfy084824T933D37.gif

"Do you want to feel my spatula?" Run, Fat Boy, Run
 
>I just suppose that I decipher things with a less angry and jaded perspective.<


I am actually staggered by this comment.

Ridicule is the first weapon of bullies and others addicted to power and has been since the beginning of time. It serves to de-humanize their victims and turn them into objects of scorn. How many prejudicial remarks are jokes? After all, the bully can always claim, "I was just joking. Can't you take a joke??"

Maybe the Jews in Germany should have been less angry, the Suffragettes less angry, African Americans less angry, Gay people less angry. Maybe they should all should have had a better sense of humor, and just lightened up a little. Maybe women today should enjoy "harmless" jokes like Tucker Carlson (of MSNBC) saying he wants to "cross his legs whenever he hears Hillary speak." (So the castrating b!tch can't get him, HA! HA!)

I really shouldn't be so gosh darn sensitive. Thanks for the advice.

I'll close with Glen Beck's (of CNN) insight:

"Hillary Clinton cannot be elected president because -- am I wrong in feeling, am I the only one in America that feels this way? -- that there's something about her vocal range. There's something about her voice that just drives me -- it's not what she says, it's how she says it. She is like the stereotypical -- excuse the expression, but this is the way to -- she's the stereotypical b!tch, you know what I mean? She's that stereotypical, nagging, [unintelligible], you know what I mean? And she doesn't have to be saying -- she could be saying happy things, but after four years, don't you think every man in America will go insane? Is it just me?"

Jonahnah
Chocolate IS the answer, regardless of the question.
 
>I am sorry, calling someone "sweetie" or "dear" is just not
>sexist in my book.

It often infantilizes the person being spoken to, and is most defintely sexist when used by men towards women that they are not intimately involved with.
 
Thank you Kathryn! I never once heard the boss that called me "dear" refer to any of my male co-workers by anything other than their names.

There are plenty of things about Obama that rub me the wrong way but when I heard him preface his response to a female reporter's question with "sweetie" I got angry. When asked about it later Obama said that it is just a habit he has. Well, unless he is also in the habit of calling professional male reporters something like "dude" then I'd ignore the whole "sweetie" thing. But, as far as I know, he's not in the habit of calling those men anything other than their given names.

And, again, this is not just about Obama, it's about the piling on of Clinton that occurred.
 
>>I am sorry, calling someone "sweetie" or "dear" is just not
>>sexist in my book.
>
>It often infantilizes the person being spoken to, and is most
>defintely sexist when used by men towards women that they are
>not intimately involved with.

On the other token, if I go into a restaurant and the waitress calls both me and my husband "sweetie", what is that? So it is ok for a woman to call a man she doesn't know Sweetie, a woman can call another woman Sweetie but heaven forbid a man does that with a woman, it is sexist?

I have been called Sweetie, Honey or Dear by both, men and women. Geeh, I was assuming they didn't know my name or forgot it and just wanted to be nice.

To me, if I don't like being called Sweetie, I would call them on it but I wouldn't assume that their intentions are bad. Just because a guy calls a woman sweetie doesn't make him a sexist.

I think people take political correctness to a level these days where I don't see where a possible benefit could be.
 
I'm sorry if I have "staggered" anyone with my comments above (which I stand behind). I had not heard of Glen Beck's comment that was illustrated above. And I do admit that is sexist. I don't watch CNN and I had not heard this. As I stated above I watch MSNBC and read newspapers. I actually never have liked Glen Beck. The few times I have seen him on television he's saying things about EVERYONE to stir the pot. I don't like people who say ridiculous things just to stir the pot (like Bill O'Reiley).

That said, I am staggered that this comment was thrown in my face: "Maybe the Jews in Germany should have been less angry, the Suffragettes less angry, African Americans less angry, Gay people less angry. Maybe they should all should have had a better sense of humor, and just lightened up a little. "

To even insinuate that I belittle the plight of the Jews in Germany or the Suffragettes or African Americans or gay people is a low blow. It's stooping to a level I wish not to stoop. I think that YOU belittle these plights by comparing it to the Hillary Clinton situation. And you insult me in the process.

I'll end my posts on this thread here so Jonahnah can have the last word. Go ahead make it good. I won't be responding.
 
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