STS-ish Question
- Thread starter Stacy
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Justinef
Cathlete
Hi Stacy,
Funnily enough, this email came through today (quote):
Unless you’ve had your head in the sand the last few years, you’ve probably heard about the 5×5 workout featured on Stronglifts 5×5, Starting Strength and so on.
Although Mark Berry was using something resembling 5×5 in the 1930’s, Bill Starr – author of the 1976 book The Strongest Shall Survive: Strength Training for Football – seems to get much of the credit for coming up with the idea.
As the title of Starr’s book suggests, the 5×5 workout was designed mainly for building strength.
It’s true that size and strength are linked, up to a point anyway.
But you can gain strength without a corresponding increase in muscle size. Stronger does not always mean bigger, and bigger does not always mean stronger.
I should also point out is that there’s nothing “magical” about 5 sets of 5 repetitions (as opposed to, say, 4 sets of 6 repetitions or even 3 sets of 8).
As he points out in the book, Starr only picked that particular configuration of sets and reps because “it was easy to remember.”
If building muscle is your main goal, there’s a very simple way to make the 5×5 workout work even better. And that’s by adding a little more volume.
There are several ways to increase your training volume. The one I want to talk about today is something called a back-off set.
To do a back-off set, complete your regular 5 sets of 5, then simply reduce the weight and crank out an additional set of 10-30 reps.
Interestingly enough, there was a study done a few years back where researchers found that the addition of a back-off set led to faster gains in muscle size and strength.
Basically, one group of subjects performed two leg exercises for 5 sets of 3-5 repetitions, while a second group did exactly the same thing, but added a back-off set (25-35 repetitions with a lighter weight) 30 seconds later.
Over the course of four weeks, the guys using the back-off set added more muscle and got stronger faster than subjects doing only 5 sets of 3-5 reps.
This kind of “combination training” is nothing new. In fact, it was very popular with some of the top bodybuilders in the 1950’s, such as Bill Pearl and Reg Park.
In his book The Wild Physique, Vince Gironda describes how Pearl and Park used to mix up their training, using both heavy and light weights.
“I remember studying Reg Park’s physique when he was power training,” writes Gironda.
“He was doing 5 sets of 5 reps. His physique looked thick. Obviously, he had maximized his muscle fiber size.”
“Park then went to South Africa and followed a system of 10-rep exercises. The appearance of his muscle changed because the capillary count looked higher, but the thickness appeared to suffer fractionally.”
“A few years later, Park mixed up his training and his physique reached its ultimate potential. He had both cross-sectional thickness and muscle height. He looked superb.”
According to Gironda, both Pearl and Park would perform 3-4 sets with a heavy weight and low reps, and then finish off with 2-3 sets of higher reps with a lighter weight.
In summary, the 5×5 workout is a highly effective way to get stronger.
Add a bit more volume and you’ll find that it’s a great way to add size at the same time.
And if it's more muscle and less fat that you're after, here's a training program that will do the job.
Talk soon,
Christian
Christian Finn, M.Sc.
Founder of Muscle Evo
Stamford Cottage
Upper Green
Moreton Pinkney Northamptonshire NN11 3SG
UNITED KINGDOM
Unsubscribe | Change Subscriber Options
Does that help at all?
Funnily enough, this email came through today (quote):
Unless you’ve had your head in the sand the last few years, you’ve probably heard about the 5×5 workout featured on Stronglifts 5×5, Starting Strength and so on.
Although Mark Berry was using something resembling 5×5 in the 1930’s, Bill Starr – author of the 1976 book The Strongest Shall Survive: Strength Training for Football – seems to get much of the credit for coming up with the idea.
As the title of Starr’s book suggests, the 5×5 workout was designed mainly for building strength.
It’s true that size and strength are linked, up to a point anyway.
But you can gain strength without a corresponding increase in muscle size. Stronger does not always mean bigger, and bigger does not always mean stronger.
I should also point out is that there’s nothing “magical” about 5 sets of 5 repetitions (as opposed to, say, 4 sets of 6 repetitions or even 3 sets of 8).
As he points out in the book, Starr only picked that particular configuration of sets and reps because “it was easy to remember.”
If building muscle is your main goal, there’s a very simple way to make the 5×5 workout work even better. And that’s by adding a little more volume.
There are several ways to increase your training volume. The one I want to talk about today is something called a back-off set.
To do a back-off set, complete your regular 5 sets of 5, then simply reduce the weight and crank out an additional set of 10-30 reps.
Interestingly enough, there was a study done a few years back where researchers found that the addition of a back-off set led to faster gains in muscle size and strength.
Basically, one group of subjects performed two leg exercises for 5 sets of 3-5 repetitions, while a second group did exactly the same thing, but added a back-off set (25-35 repetitions with a lighter weight) 30 seconds later.
Over the course of four weeks, the guys using the back-off set added more muscle and got stronger faster than subjects doing only 5 sets of 3-5 reps.
This kind of “combination training” is nothing new. In fact, it was very popular with some of the top bodybuilders in the 1950’s, such as Bill Pearl and Reg Park.
In his book The Wild Physique, Vince Gironda describes how Pearl and Park used to mix up their training, using both heavy and light weights.
“I remember studying Reg Park’s physique when he was power training,” writes Gironda.
“He was doing 5 sets of 5 reps. His physique looked thick. Obviously, he had maximized his muscle fiber size.”
“Park then went to South Africa and followed a system of 10-rep exercises. The appearance of his muscle changed because the capillary count looked higher, but the thickness appeared to suffer fractionally.”
“A few years later, Park mixed up his training and his physique reached its ultimate potential. He had both cross-sectional thickness and muscle height. He looked superb.”
According to Gironda, both Pearl and Park would perform 3-4 sets with a heavy weight and low reps, and then finish off with 2-3 sets of higher reps with a lighter weight.
In summary, the 5×5 workout is a highly effective way to get stronger.
Add a bit more volume and you’ll find that it’s a great way to add size at the same time.
And if it's more muscle and less fat that you're after, here's a training program that will do the job.
Talk soon,
Christian
Christian Finn, M.Sc.
Founder of Muscle Evo
Stamford Cottage
Upper Green
Moreton Pinkney Northamptonshire NN11 3SG
UNITED KINGDOM
Unsubscribe | Change Subscriber Options
Does that help at all?
nckfitheart2009
Cathlete
Here is my 2 cents!
Tweaking a 5x5 strength training adding volume to gain strength without size might work.
Trying out for a sustainable time scale is the only way to know if it work or not.
Nothing magical happen over a night
Let's not forget that nutrition and hormones have to be taken into account during any
questing goal process regardless of the level of fitness.
ETA: I would like to add a quote from article below:
"Hypertrophy and strength training should not be considered competing, but rather complementary methods of training."
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/the-new-science-of-size-and-strength
Tweaking a 5x5 strength training adding volume to gain strength without size might work.
Trying out for a sustainable time scale is the only way to know if it work or not.
Nothing magical happen over a night
Let's not forget that nutrition and hormones have to be taken into account during any
questing goal process regardless of the level of fitness.
ETA: I would like to add a quote from article below:
"Hypertrophy and strength training should not be considered competing, but rather complementary methods of training."
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/the-new-science-of-size-and-strength
Last edited:
Thanks for the replies. Justine, thanks for the article. I have read about 5x5 training before. I feel I have been in a "hypertrophy" phase all my life since starting Cathe since for me, her rep schemes are all about the same, give or take a few dvds. I was reading alot about how muscle size (diameter) is related to volume whether the volume be heavy or light weight (don't know if that's valid or not, but the article made sense at the time). I may try doing Meso 3 but doing only half the sets, possibly even just doing week 3 where the rep count is 6 and see what happens! I'm not naive to the fact that genetics is involved, but I am always intrigued when I see gymnasts or the tiny but super strong females in the American Ninja Warrior competitions. That's what got me thinking about all this one night when I was up with insomnia, lol!
Justinef
Cathlete
Stacy, I did a 6 month Nia shanks programme, which was more strength than hypertrophy based. She's tiny with wiry muscles, but can deadlift 3x her body weight. I got great results from it, both in terms of gaining strength, and not gaining too much muscle size. Of all Cathe's stuff, meso #3 STS would be the closest, especially adding in some short, sharp cardio (I'm thinking 10 minutes ultra hiit).
I'm assuming you mean 10 minutes ultra hiit the same day as strength training?? Did the Nia Shanks program do HiiT and/or any steady state cardio? I'm going on vaca soon but plan on doing Meso 3 plus some HiiT when I return. I also have a new goal to run a faster 5K and I have a program for that that involves some speed training so I hope the two work well together!
Justinef
Cathlete
Yes, Nia includes optional 'finishers'. The entire workouts inc finishers are only 40 minutes or so.
Another thought would be to do a Cathe hypertrophy workout (eg gym style) but stop at 4 or so reps (obviously going much heavier), and just sit out Cathe's remaining reps, which would make the rests more in line with strength, ie longer rests.
I understand why Cathe usually works in the hypertrophy or endurance range, as the low rep stuff requires much more equipment, but it's a pity.
Another thought would be to do a Cathe hypertrophy workout (eg gym style) but stop at 4 or so reps (obviously going much heavier), and just sit out Cathe's remaining reps, which would make the rests more in line with strength, ie longer rests.
I understand why Cathe usually works in the hypertrophy or endurance range, as the low rep stuff requires much more equipment, but it's a pity.
Justinef
Cathlete
Stacy, meant to say- keep us informed! I'd love to hear what you do and what your results are. I'm very interested in comparing different styles of lifting and their outcomes. I've just started some physique work, and am loving it.
If you ever want to check in with a group of us who primarily lift (and create our own programmes etc) we check in under 'lifting like girls'
One or two have seriously heavy deadlifts and squats!!
If you ever want to check in with a group of us who primarily lift (and create our own programmes etc) we check in under 'lifting like girls'
One or two have seriously heavy deadlifts and squats!!