Speaking of PC, can somebody help me understand Kwanza?

RE: Speaking of PC, can somebody help me understand Kw...

>jordan,
>I don't understand your post. The sending of announcements is
>to share the sender's news, and it's about the sender. When
>you send someone a card that says "have a happy birthday",
>it's not about the sender, it's about the sendee. It is
>self-evident that the sending of cards to wish someone a happy
>something is about the sendee, and not about the sender.
>Nancy

Nancy, you know I love you, but I just don't follow the logic here. How does a card originating from me suddenly become about you? I get loads of both generic holiday and Christmas-specific cards and I don't view them as that person attempting to convert me to their beliefs (or lack thereof). I look at them as an expression of the sendER's point of view and desire to share their holiday, not as some extension of me and my belief system. (Seriously, are we all so self-involved that we expect people to buy separate and distinct cards based on what we think will be least offensive to the recipient?)

I do my own thing for Christmas. My celebration is spiritual to me in that it is about my family. My cards always feature a cute picture of my kids and then some humorous or ironic caption written by me, because that represents us (cuteness, humor, irreverence). I don't expect that to be about the recipient, KWIM? And some people, I guess, might be really offended by my cards (for example, last year's card featured an ode to the future underwear models of America below a picture of the boys vamping). But I don't send cards to suit the recipient, I send them to suit me. Does that make sense?

Marie
:)
 
>Michele, I've been puzzling over your post for some time.
>You sent me an adorable card with a snowman on the front that
>said "Season's Greetings and Best Wishes for a Happy New
>Year!" It was sweet, personal and thoughtful and I loved it.
>From your posts, I take it that you send Christmas cards to
>your friends who celebrate Christmas, which is lovely. My
>only point was that I think it's a bit less thoughtful to send
>a religious card to someone who isn't of that religion. In
>short, my point is that I think people should be more like
>you. Yet, you're the one disagreeing with me. Hmmmmmmmm.
>I'm still puzzling over this.......
>Nancy

Because I AM sweet, personal, and thoughtful--LOL!! I think you missed one of my posts where I explained that I normally send out Christmas cards with a religious theme, but I failed to get them ordered on time this year, so I had to go with what was available on the store shelves.

Had I sent you a religious card do you think it would have been less personal or thoughtful? Isn't what made the card personal and thoughtful in the first place the note I wrote inside--the sentiments that I expressed about you? I am a born again Christian. Christmas goes to the heart of my beliefs. If I send you a card with a religious theme I am sharing a bit of myself with you. It's like inviting someone into your home. It's telling you that in this most holy time my thoughts and prayers are for you. It's meant as an act of kindness and thoughtfulness so I don't understand how it could be offensive to anyone. I can't explain it any better than that.
 
RE: Speaking of PC, can somebody help me understand Kw...

>I get loads of both generic holiday and
>Christmas-specific cards and I don't view them as that person
>attempting to convert me to their beliefs (or lack thereof). I
>look at them as an expression of the sendER's point of view
>and desire to share their holiday, not as some extension of me
>and my belief system. (Seriously, are we all so self-involved
>that we expect people to buy separate and distinct cards based
>on what we think will be least offensive to the recipient?)

>Marie
>:)


BINGO!!! Marie, WTH have you been while I've been here struggling to explain myself--lol!? Then along comes Marie with her razor sharp precision, and explains the whole concept in 3 sentences. I so envy this skill *SIGH*. :7 :*
 
RE: Speaking of PC, can somebody help me understand Kw...

>jordan,
>I don't understand your post. The sending of announcements is
>to share the sender's news, and it's about the sender. When
>you send someone a card that says "have a happy birthday",
>it's not about the sender, it's about the sendee. It is
>self-evident that the sending of cards to wish someone a happy
>something is about the sendee, and not about the sender.
>Nancy

Well I had trouble posting my response, it might be floating around in cyberspace.

Hi Nancy,

I don't see a Christmas card as a Birthday card because it isn't the recipients BD (well I guess it could be, but then I would send a BD card). It's my understanding that the Christmas card (in the religious sense) is an announcement that commemorates the birth of the baby Jesus. People can share their message of joy & happiness with their friends and family through the card. I'm okay with someone sharing something with me that is important to them (this sentiment doesn't just apply to Christmas cards).

I am happy to share my thoughts with you, and I want you to know that I don't have a problem if you feel differently.

jordan
 
RE: Speaking of PC, can somebody help me understand Kw...

This has been an interesting discussion...

As society raises its level of consciousness about other cultures, religions, and celebrations, I think it is good that non-dominant groups are being acknowledged, accepted, taught about, and included.

I share Diane and Nancy's mindset...I think the card should be sent with the receiver in mind. At this time of year, I send Hanukkah cards to my Jewish friends, and I receive Christmas cards from them. I cannot imagine sending a Christmas card to someone who does not observe Christmas. The point of sending the card, I think, is to acknowledge the other person's belief or celebration. Therefore, if I were to send religious Christmas cards, I would only send them to the folks who I *know* shared my beliefs. (Likewise, I only send the sarcastic cards to the people on my list who will appreciate that kind of humor.) In my view, religion is a very personal thing...it's not really a part of most of my acquaintances and friendships, and I prefer it that way...I think many people feel the same. When you don't know where the recipient stands, I say don't go with the religious message.

On a related note, I have a colleague who is deeply religious, and every year, he gives me some type of Christian book as a Christmas gift. While I don't mean to sound ungrateful (I guess it's nice that he thought of me), it bugs me on some level because I don't think he should go there. It's like the John Wayne DVD. In that sense, I do feel like he is pushing *his* beliefs onto me.

Just my thoughts...I'll keep reading with interest.
Cathy :)
 
My Passion

Nancy:

I generally avoid these topics, but I will give it a whirl since Michele called me out.

I am a believer. I love Jesus with all my heart. The Lord is my passion. I love God’s Word. I have a Bible verse in my signature. I sign everything I write with blessings. I have Bible verses on my personal checks and stationery. My faith is personal, but it is not private. It is only natural to share my passion with people I know. It is not intended to offend. It is not an attempt to force people to convert to my way of thinking. It is simply an expression of who I am. It is not my style to preach at people. It is my desire to be a living vessel of God’s love and grace. I share my faith by the way I live and love, but that does not imply that I am silent about it. Kathryn and Carole have never attempted to convert me to a vegan lifestyle, but I know that they are available to answer questions if I ever decide to go in that direction because they share their passion for that way of eating. You love fine dining. Kathryn loves cats. I love Jesus and Bible study. If you understood how precious He is to people who believe, you might “get” why we do not want to sweep a celebration of His birth under a generic greeting rug.

This is a time of year when people send out cards to friends and loved ones. When I send a birthday card to someone on his or her special day, I pick out a card that reflects that person’s personality. A gift is also something I buy with the recipient’s taste and style in mind. But a Christmas card is a reflection of me. I pick out cards with my favorite colors, pictures, and verses. It is about the birth of Someone who is precious and dear to me. I am not trying to convert or offend anyone. I am simply sharing my joy with my friends and loved ones.

If you think about it, many people include pictures of their children and letters about the events of the year with their cards. The enclosures reflect the life of the sender, so why shouldn’t the card? I receive funny Hallmark cards from family members and friends who are not believers. I receive Christmas cards from believers. The card tells me about the sender. It is not about me.

It appears to me that the difference of opinion in this thread is the way we are viewing this. Some people see the card as a “gift” for the recipient that should reflect that person’s beliefs. In some cases, it is. If I had someone on my mailing list who is Jewish, I would send a Hanukkah card. That makes more sense to me than sending a generic card to everyone. It is one thing to celebrate diversity, but it is not good when personal identity gets lost in the melting pot. I do not expect people who are not believers to send Christmas cards. I am not offended when an atheist friend sends a generic greeting card. But to suggest that everyone start sending generic cards just in case someone could be offended is something I do not get. I will be the first to admit that I am not politically correct. I am a conservative Southern girl, but I still love you and Kathryn and Laura and the other liberal Northern girls who are members of this community. I love the freedom we have to express our different beliefs instead of pretending that they do not exist. We could simply focus on what we do have in common (fitness) and avoid these other topics, but would we really want to do that? I want to be free to be me. I want you to be free to be you.

For what it is worth, I would wait until January and send a “Happy New Year” card to you if you were on my mailing list. I am not politically correct, but I am polite. This is important to you, and I am all about meeting people where they are. A generic greeting card is not my style, so you would just have to wait until January for your card from me. ;-)

Texas is obviously a different world than New York. I am on a ministry team with several other girls from my church family. We do outreaches to women in the adult entertainment industry. Every Good Friday, we visit the local men’s clubs and deliver Easter gift bags to the dancers, waitresses, and bartenders. Members of my church family donate bubble bath, body lotion, makeup, costume jewelry, candy, small stuffed bunnies, and other goodies. Each gift bag also includes a pretty scroll with an Easter message. We do not judge or preach at anyone. We just hug them, listen to them, talk to them, and love on them. They know that we are simply sharing the joy of an occasion that is special to us. They love us and look forward to our visit every year. They remember us and literally jump for joy when we return.

I share this in love and hope you receive it in the light intended. I do not wish to be combative. I simply desire to share why I choose to send Christmas cards instead of generic greeting cards.

Blessings,
Heather B.

“So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God” (1 Corinthians 10:31 NIV).
 
RE: My Passion

Heather, your words are always so beautiful. :)

Personally, I am going to land with Nancy et al on this one. Honestly I had never heard of sending cards to people who were not celebrating that particular holiday. When I send cards to my Jewish and Muslim friends, it's to say "thinking of YOU during YOUR special time." To send them a Xmas card would to me be like saying "thinking of ME thinking of YOU in MY special time and wanted to acknowledge it with a card." Does that make sense?

Also I think there is a big difference between sending a secular Christian a religious Xmas card and sending a Xmas card to someone well outside of Christianity. The secular person is still probably celebrating Xmas.

Great discussion! No offense intended in anything I've said.

Sparrow

My garden is filled with papayas and mangos
My life is a mixture of reggaes and tangos
Taste for the good life, I can live it no other way
- Jimmy Buffett
 
RE: My Passion

I agree with Sparrow abut this much, Heather, your words are ALWAYS so beautiful and I can't improve upon a thing you said.
 
RE: My Passion

I've never been in a PC debate because I'm a very private person. But I wanted to share some experiences. I just finished reading the book of Matthew which is about Jesus' birth and life. How ironic that what has been transpiring here is exactly what Jesus has proclaimed would happen. Read Matthew 10: 22. It says, "Everyone will hate you because of me. But whoever holds out to the end will be saved." I truly believe in Jesus because I have faith. I have faith because when I was a little girl, around 6, He literally answered my prayer. It was a silly prayer, but He answered it. I wanted to know what the distance was between the Earth and the sun. The answer came in a "Leave it to Beaver" episode. (93 million miles)Silly, I know. But from that, I've always believed. I also believe in life after death. That our life on earth is just a "holding ground" if you will to something much more beautiful than we are able to image. I think most will agree that birth is a miracle. My mom always taught me not to be afraid of death because just like there is a miracle in the beginning, there will be a miracle at the end. And this is based on faith, something that people who don't have it, can't understand. That's because there is no real scientific evidence of it; that's why it's called faith.

Now, on to the Christmas card issue. Most people in the US are Christian and believe in Jesus Christ. When we Christians send out religious cards, we will be hated by those who don't believe. But I'd rather be hated by others in this temporary life yet loved by Jesus & have eternal life. In my business, I sent out Merry Christmas cards. Was in politically incorrect, yes. Was it right to do in my heart, yes. Will I lose business because I sent a Merry Christmas card, so be it. Riches come in other forms besides money.

Terri
 
I read through all these posts, thought about it, and, well, I can definitely relate to Nancy's POV. I, too, do not practice any organized religion. Now, if someone sends me a very religious card, it doesn't bother me at all, because I'm assuming that they got a boxload and are sending them to everyone. But... if that person also included an insert with lots of heavy religious stuff, I'd be like WTH? I'd feel like their sending the card with that insert was all about them... with no thoughts of my personal beliefs.

For example, if a friend who's vegan comes over for dinner. I'm not gonna serve up steak and fried eggs. I'd probably make a nice pasta with broccoli rabe, kalamata olives, and walnuts (sounds good, no?) Why? Because I'm respecting their beliefs.
Sometimes I'm not very good at getting my point across in an eloquent way, but do you get my drift?
 
Christmas Cards

Sparrow, thank you for the compliment! I love to write! For the sake of this discussion, I am assuming that everyone knows the people on their mailing list and whether or not they celebrate Christmas. Even my family members who are not church members or active followers of Christ still celebrate Christmas. My cards are not aggressively evangelistic or overly religious, but they do say “Merry Christmas” instead of “Seasons Greetings.”

Delfin, I do not include religious inserts in my cards. I was referring to the letters people often enclose telling about the events of the year for people who do not hear from them on a daily or weekly basis. It is my understanding that this discussion is about whether the card should be imprinted with the phrase “Merry Christmas” or “Seasons Greetings” based on Nancy’s comment that it would be just as easy for everyone to order cards with “Seasons Greetings” imprinted on them. As I shared in my previous post, I would send a Hanukkah card to someone who celebrates that holiday.

If people are going to celebrate Christmas (sacred or secular) and call it Christmas, why would it bother them to read “Merry Christmas” on a card? That is the part I do not get.

Blessings,
Heather B.

“So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God” (1 Corinthians 10:31 NIV).
 
RE: Christmas Cards

I totally agree, Heather. I can certainly understand NOT sending Christmas cards to those who don't celebrate the holiday. But, I don't understand why anyone who celebrates the holiday--even if they aren't big into the religious elements--would be offended by a religious card. Surely, the realize that is the original reason for the season.:)
 
> I grew tired of
>going into stores that had Happy Hanukah displays, Kwaanza
>displays, even Eid displays in some forward-thinking places,
>yet in front of the Xmas displays there were signs that said
>"Happy Holidays!"

Eid?



I suppose there are two ways of looking at the greetings: are you wishing the recipient well in celebration of their beliefs (sending a "Merry Christmas" card to a Christian, a "Happy Hannukah" card to a Jew, a "Happy Holidays" card to those you are not sure about?) or are you wishing the recipient well in celebration of your own beliefs (then the greeting would reflect the giver's beliefs).
 
RE: Speaking of PC, can somebody help me understand Kw...

>As society raises its level of consciousness about other
>cultures, religions, and celebrations, I think it is good that
>non-dominant groups are being acknowledged, accepted, taught
>about, and included.

I agree that's wonderful, but how is it fair to ask people of the traditionally dominant group to change for you? No one is dissing anyone else's form of celebration, just the Christian one.

>I share Diane and Nancy's mindset...I think the card should be
>sent with the receiver in mind. At this time of year, I send
>Hanukkah cards to my Jewish friends, and I receive Christmas
>cards from them. I cannot imagine sending a Christmas card to
>someone who does not observe Christmas.

But that's not the point of the discussion. No one is advocating sending Christmas cards to their Jewish friends or vice versa. We're talking about sending Christmas- or religious-specific cards to people who DO celebrate Christmas (correct me if I'm wrong, Nancy, but I didn't see any remark indicating you don't actually celebrate the holiday) but just in a more secular manner.

I can empathize with people who do not celebrate the holiday in a traditional Christian or religious manner. However, I do think it's asking a lot of friends or family to effectively water down their own holiday sentiments so that you feel more comfortable. If you don't enjoy their cards, you should ask them to strike you off their list, frankly.

Marie
 
RE: Christmas Cards

>For the sake of this discussion, I am assuming that everyone knows
>the people on their mailing list and whether or not they
>celebrate Christmas. Even my family members who are not
>church members or active followers of Christ still celebrate
>Christmas. My cards are not aggressively evangelistic or
>overly religious, but they do say “Merry Christmas” instead of
>“Seasons Greetings.”

>It is my understanding that this discussion is about whether the card >should be imprinted with the phrase “Merry Christmas” or “Seasons >Greetings” based on Nancy’s comment that it would be just as easy for >everyone to order cards with “Seasons Greetings” imprinted on them. >As I shared in my previous post, I would send a Hanukkah card to
>someone who celebrates that holiday.
>
>If people are going to celebrate Christmas (sacred or secular)
>and call it Christmas, why would it bother them to read “Merry
>Christmas” on a card? That is the part I do not get.
>
>Blessings,
>Heather B.
>
>“So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for
>the glory of God” (1 Corinthians 10:31 NIV).

Yes! ITA with all points made. This is exactly what I have been trying to get across, albeit not as eloquently as you, Heather;)
 
RE: Speaking of PC, can somebody help me understand Kw...

"But that's not the point of the discussion. No one is advocating sending Christmas cards to their Jewish friends or vice versa. We're talking about sending Christmas- or religious-specific cards to people who DO celebrate Christmas (correct me if I'm wrong, Nancy, but I didn't see any remark indicating you don't actually celebrate the holiday) but just in a more secular manner."

Marie, if you read the whole thread, which started with Lorrie asking a question about Kwanzaa and turned a major corner (apologies, Lorrie!), that is, in fact, the point of the discussion. Michele (who sent me a perfectly lovely non-religious card) and others are advocating sending religious cards to Jewish and other non-Christian friends.

I stated that I do not subscribe to any organized religion. When you say that I DO celebrate the holiday, I'm not sure what you mean. I go to my office "holiday party" and sometimes give gifts to my relatives who celebrate Christmas. I wouldn't dream of turning down a party invitation just because someone called it a "Christmas party", but, fortunately, I don't know anyone in New York who does that.

All I'm saying, as so many others here have said, is why not send the right card to the right person?

Of course, I also agree with the poster who said that if someone is buying a big box of Christmas cards to send to their Christian friends (I'm assuming it would be someone from outside NYC), I don't want them to go out and get a special card just for me. The same is true for Hanukah cards of course. A personal message inside the card is good enough.

Now I know you're going to agree with me Marie. ;)

Nancy
 
RE: My Passion

Heather,

I think you may be very right when you suggest that our whole difference of opinin may come down to just coming from different parts of the country. Our law office is filled with hundreds of cards, and there isn't a single one that says "Merry Christmas". If you saw it, it would probably seem quite odd to you. And when my DH's co-workers from the midwest send us cards at home that say "Merry Christmas" it really stands out and just seems a bit non-PC because it's just not what we're used to. Please do understand though, that we LOVE being remembered by people who are kind enough to remember us, and we really are not offended. Okay, to be very honest, there is just that one moment when you first open the card and you see those words that you've come to think of as un-PC and it seems a bit unpolite. But then you see who it is coming from and you realize that they do think differently there, and then the message inside is always warm and fuzzy and genuine and the moment is gone. :D

And by the way, I love your idea about sending Happy New Year's cards. My only caveat is that if the Christmas cards are personalized with pics of your family, and the New Year's cards aren't, I'd much prefer the family pics. Those cards are the best, especially when they come from people you don't see regularly.

Thanks so much for your post, Heather, and Merry Christmas! :D :D

Nancy
 
RE: Speaking of PC, can somebody help me understand Kw...

>>Marie, if you read the whole thread, which started with Lorrie
>asking a question about Kwanzaa and turned a major corner
>(apologies, Lorrie!), that is, in fact, the point of the
>discussion. Michele (who sent me a perfectly lovely
>non-religious card) and others are advocating sending
>religious cards to Jewish and other non-Christian friends.
>

>All I'm saying, as so many others here have said, is why not
>send the right card to the right person?
>
>Of course, I also agree with the poster who said that if
>someone is buying a big box of Christmas cards to send to
>their Christian friends (I'm assuming it would be someone from
>outside NYC), I don't want them to go out and get a special
>card just for me. The same is true for Hanukah cards of
>course. A personal message inside the card is good enough.
>

Right. This is the angle I was coming from also.

I celebrate Christmas, and I am not offended when I receive a card that's more religious in nature. However, if I were sending religious cards, I would reserve those for folks I *know* share my beliefs--meaning, for folks as religious as I may be. When it comes to both religion and politics, I just don't like to go there with people unless I feel it's "safe." It's the same if I'm sending a holiday card that's sarcastic or off-color in nature--I just wouldn't send it to those who I feel might not share my sense of humor.
 
RE: Speaking of PC, can somebody help me understand Kw...

>"But that's not the point of the discussion. No one is
>advocating sending Christmas cards to their Jewish friends or
>vice versa. We're talking about sending Christmas- or
>religious-specific cards to people who DO celebrate Christmas
>(correct me if I'm wrong, Nancy, but I didn't see any remark
>indicating you don't actually celebrate the holiday) but just
>in a more secular manner."
>
>Marie, if you read the whole thread, which started with Lorrie
>asking a question about Kwanzaa and turned a major corner
>(apologies, Lorrie!), that is, in fact, the point of the
>discussion. Michele (who sent me a perfectly lovely
>non-religious card) and others are advocating sending
>religious cards to Jewish and other non-Christian friends.
>
>I stated that I do not subscribe to any organized religion.
>When you say that I DO celebrate the holiday, I'm not sure
>what you mean. I go to my office "holiday party" and
>sometimes give gifts to my relatives who celebrate Christmas.
>I wouldn't dream of turning down a party invitation just
>because someone called it a "Christmas party", but,
>fortunately, I don't know anyone in New York who does that.
>
>All I'm saying, as so many others here have said, is why not
>send the right card to the right person?
>
>Of course, I also agree with the poster who said that if
>someone is buying a big box of Christmas cards to send to
>their Christian friends (I'm assuming it would be someone from
>outside NYC), I don't want them to go out and get a special
>card just for me. The same is true for Hanukah cards of
>course. A personal message inside the card is good enough.
>
>Now I know you're going to agree with me Marie. ;)
>
>Nancy

Nance, I would disagree with your assessment of my remarks. I think maybe posts and replies are getting mixed up making this thread hard to follow--lol!

I believe this all got started with comments about why everyone doesn't just go with a generic, secular card for Christmas so as not to offend anyone. That to me is the very epitome of PC and still, I just can't understand why anyone would be offended by a card that read Merry Christmas or Happy Hanukkah. To say Merry Christmas is nothing more than a greeting. My cards typically say Merry Christmas and include a small bible verse.

I have received Hanukkah cards. Like someone else posted, we tend to go out and buy a card and everyone gets the same one. How cumbersome it would be to stand in the Hallmark store and try to pick out 80 different cards. The point of sending a card at Christmas is to let the sendee know that they are special and in your thoughts at this time.
 
RE: Speaking of PC, can somebody help me understand Kw...

>Marie, if you read the whole thread, which started with Lorrie
>asking a question about Kwanzaa and turned a major corner
>(apologies, Lorrie!), that is, in fact, the point of the
>discussion. Michele (who sent me a perfectly lovely
>non-religious card) and others are advocating sending
>religious cards to Jewish and other non-Christian friends.

Hmm, ok, maybe I totally misunderstood. I thought the discussion came down to sending cards that say "Season's Greetings" vs. "Merry Christmas" or something otherwise religiously-tilted.

>I stated that I do not subscribe to any organized religion.
>When you say that I DO celebrate the holiday, I'm not sure
>what you mean. I go to my office "holiday party" and
>sometimes give gifts to my relatives who celebrate Christmas.

So... no tree? No gifts to and from the SO? No visits to Rockefeller Center?

>Now I know you're going to agree with me Marie. ;)

:7
 
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