So, who won the debate?

[crazystepr]

I mean that the statement was... a person "and their god." (little "g") People have many different little gods, but there is only one true God. Everyone will know that one day.

Wow. You scare the crap out of me.

Frighteningly enough you sound very similar to Taliban extremists....

 

[PhyllisG]

Yes I think many people are living beyond their means but there are other reasons also. You could lose your jobs and have a difficult time finding another at the same pay level. But what happens most I think to families is catastrophic illness. I saw a family in our local paper recently who has a child with a severe rare form of epilepsy. Her medication was $1600 a month covered by their health insurance. The cost of the medication just rose to $14,000 a month and their coverage was refusing to pay. Now what? Mortgage your house? People lose their jobs they lose their health insurance. I have never seen the logic of tying health insurance to employment. The banks also need far more regulation regarding credit cards--hi interest rates (loan sharking actually), raising rates if you miss a payment on another account, exorbitant late fees, and making offers with fine print that nobody reads. They will issue a card to anyone knowing that they can sucker them in with hi interest and other fees. I really blame this whole credit card scam with a lot of the financial problems that we have today. I am old enough to remember when it was hard to get a credit card and AmEx was just about the only one.

 

[Dela]

Still, pro or con, I can't believe anyone would make abortion their litmus test for a presidential candidate at a time like this.

AGREED!!!! What does this topic have to do with running our country, or keeping us from financial ruin, or protecting our borders from future attacks?? It is so the LEAST of it.

 

[dorothyrd]

I remember those times too, and really respected the privilage to have one by making sure I always could pay it off. One recommendation we follow is to have 6 months of available money in case you lose your job. It is not easy, but achieved because our mortgage is so very low and we have no other debt. Our daughter was ill when she was little and claims were rejected right and left from my husband's job's insurance. He lost his job in that time period, and we had to go on Cobra(which cost more than our house mortgage). We were stuck with this because no one would insure her at that time. But because we have always lived below our means, we weathered this without having to take out extreme loans.

Of course, her medical bills were not what you are talking about, and I am always first to give to people holding fundraisers for people in this situation. It is terribly sad. So I can see how there are reasons people get to bankruptcy through no fault of their own, but not masses and masses of people. In my own town I have seen many people who have bought houses that are quite extravagant, and I have been asked why I stay in my little house and not move to one of these really nice house. My answer, a house mortgage and real estate taxes 5 times what I pay now. Nope, I will be happy in my little house.

 

[hottiescientist]

I am SHOCKED that there are that many abortions. With the exception of a childhood friend who had 3 abortions (then became a radical conservative Republican, talk about CLASSIC), then had a son she adores (and became a radical liberal Democrat...), I don't know but a smattering of women who've had abortions, unless they're keeping quiet about it... which is obviously possible. Still, when the heated group abortion debates happen I never get the feeling anyone is speaking from their own experience... And while I STILL feel there are much more pressing issues RIGHT NOW than someone else's deeply personal, private dilemma I am surprised (and not entirely pleased) that, in this day and age, unwanted pregnancies still happen to anyone other than naive young girls who don't use birth control and are having unprotected sex.

I know -- its such a terrible number. But as you intimated, these are numbers not context. We don't know which abortions were married mothers in their 40s with three healthy children who chose this path because their birth control didn't work. We don't know how many were terminated because it turns out if brought to term, the child would die shortly of a painful terminal disease. I'm not saying these circumstances would even make a large percentage of the actual abortions. But just as its important to actually understand the statistics of the issue, people can't just point to a number without context. We need to go beyond the numbers and understand the core issues around the problem.

But you should happy to know, as I think autumn pointed out, that teenage pregnancies are on the decline and the rate of protected sex has increased with education. Frankly, it is a decision that most people across the board to not take lightly and I wish people in general would not trivialize the circumstance women are put in.

 

[sparrow13]

Just as a point of interest I thought I'd add this comment from my best friend's dad, who is a retired OB-GYN in the deep south. He is a church-going Conservative who is vehemently pro-choice, having seen the things he's seen in his practice. Anyway, he said that the majority of people asking for abortions in his practice were the Conservative Christian parents of pregnant teens. The girls didn't want abortions - and many were smart enough to not mention being pregnant until abortion was not a viable option. The parents didn't generally know how far along the girls were and so would bring them to his office and beg him to talk the girls into abortions, either to save face or make her immediate future easier.

No real point to this story, except to maybe point out that it's easy to be judgmental and act as if we hold the moral center when the situation is in the abstract. When it comes down to actually having to consider the reality of an unwanted pregnancy, tunes can change, and that is why I am pro-choice. Of course, for some, the tune would not change, no matter what, and that is certainly their right.

Sparrow

 

[toffeedog]

THe average US citizen gets a very poor deal from the goverment. Having viewed other countries and really digging into what the citizen actually gets! Well, its been an eye opener. Wall Street has become too powerful. Very low interest rates did not stimulate growth only a flase dawn. The pain has not really started for the average citizen.

 

[Shelshula]

DorothyRD:

I am just like you. I fully fund my 401K, put a substantial amount of money into savings every month, live in a modest apartment, never use my credit cards unless I can pay them off at the end of the month. We’re trying to buy a house and we are being very careful about the mortgage we finally get.

The problem is that if you are late on a credit card payment, then under the new laws if a debtor is late on one credit card, every credit card company can raise their rates, and not just a little, we’re talking about going from 10.5% to as high as 32%, in some instances in one month. (Forgive me for not citing the reference; I honestly don’t remember if it’s part of the new bankruptcy law or the credit protection act) And if someone gets sick, or loses their job, a lot of people are not in the same position to survive such a financial crisis unscathed. Also, some people have boughts of emotional binge spending like some people binge eat.

Another problem is that people are susceptible to marketing and rationalization. When you have places like National City Bank encouraging people to get a line of equity loan for something like a dream vacation and mortgage brokers encouraging ARMs when people are on the fringe of just affording the original payments, people convince themselves of a lot of non-rational things. Heck, I came very close to convincing myself that a 60” plasma TV was a necessity. If my husband hadn’t very nicely pointed out my folly I wouldn’t be watching Cathe on a perfectly good 15 year old 27” Zenith tube TV right now.

Sparrow13:

I understand your aversion to Dole Programs. The Republican Party has been very successful in making that a talking point over the years. But stereotype of people getting on the dole and turning into baby machines creating a permanent welfare class is not representative of the vast majority of people who go on the dole. Most people are on the dole for less then 3 years, and it is an avenue of last resort. My family was on welfare after my parents divorced in 1974. I remember being 4 and talking to the case worker. I know we were no longer on welfare by the time I started the first grade, so at most we were on welfare for 2 years, and in hindsight I don’t know what we would have done without food stamps and welfare payments. But my mom went on to get a bachelors degree and a masters degree and taught special needs children for over 25 years, she put 4 kids through undergrad, one through law school and another through an MBA program. Each and every one of us is successful in our chosen careers and productive members of society and we are certainly not the exception.

We actually grew up rabid Republicans. I remember becoming very adamant that “Welfare is bad” in college. (I was big fan of Rush Limbaugh) I didn’t give it much thought as to how unreasonable it was for me of all people to be anti-welfare until I was home on break one night ranting at the dinner table about people on the dole and my mom asked me if that’s what I thought of her. She reminded me that people don’t go on the dole because they want a free ride; they do it out of desperation. People who get stuck on the dole need training and counseling, not vilification. And honestly I don’t think enough money goes to food stamps.

And consciously choosing to have your vote be a throw away vote is a form of political protest I can respect. I sometimes forget that not everyone has the same goals as I do.

 

[dorothyrd]

I guess that is my point...don't charge so much you cannot pay it off each month. I have had that discipline for a long time. I am motivated by people I see who do not do that and then get buried. One fellow I know bought a house worth 500,000(around here that is high), when he did not have a job. That is irresponsible, but he was keeping up with the Jones'. He ended up with massive credit card debt, all because he wanted a 4000 square foot house. And he told us we really needed to move out of our little 1600 sq foot house to something bigger, how nice it was.....nice, all that debt, nope, not for me.

I just wonder how many people dig their own holes. Probably far more than have the bad life occurences.

 

[PhyllisG]

Yes I think alot of people have dug their own holes but with a lot of encouragement from the credit card companies and the banks. These financial institutions are not regulated enough in my opinion. Bankruptcy filing has just been made harder at a time when more people might need it. Also don't forget people on fixed incomes who are now faced with exorbitant home heating fuel bills this winter. Many of these people are resorting to credit cards to pay for things like heat and food. It is going to be a difficult winter for a lot of families. Job layoffs, low paying jobs, medical insurance loss, rising gas and heating oil prices, rising food prices effects alot of people. I really don't know how families with children can make it some times. We are self employed and our business has really been down this year. It effects so many things--library instead of my small town bookstore, no new clothing purchases, woodstoves this winter instead of oil furnace. No matter how careful you have been financially if you are middle or working class you are going to be feeling it. The problem is those credit cards are going to be used not for extras but for necessities.

 

[baylian]

OK, I don't get this. I work hard to not have debt. I am conservative about my money and when I bought a house, I made sure the mortgage was affordable and within budget. I did not listen to what the bank said I could borrow, I bought a modest home that I could afford. I don't run up credit cards. I drive cars long past them being paid off. I consider purchases, and decide if I have the money, not charge it and decide to pay later. I thought this is what most people do. So if many of us are going to have to file bankruptcy, than that means most of us do not live within our means now.

And in case you say, well I have a job, what if I lose it. Well both my husband and I work for the same place, and a few years ago there was a possibility. So we looked hard at finances and made sure we could handle that problem. Because we owe hardly any money to anyone, we are in a good place. Not to say losing our jobs would not be incredibly hard and stressful, just saying....don't borrow more than you can afford to pay back....something our government just does not understand.

Excellant point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[baylian]

Yes I think alot of people have dug their own holes but with a lot of encouragement from the credit card companies and the banks. These financial institutions are not regulated enough in my opinion. Bankruptcy filing has just been made harder at a time when more people might need it. Also don't forget people on fixed incomes who are now faced with exorbitant home heating fuel bills this winter. Many of these people are resorting to credit cards to pay for things like heat and food. It is going to be a difficult winter for a lot of families. Job layoffs, low paying jobs, medical insurance loss, rising gas and heating oil prices, rising food prices effects alot of people. I really don't know how families with children can make it some times. We are self employed and our business has really been down this year. It effects so many things--library instead of my small town bookstore, no new clothing purchases, woodstoves this winter instead of oil furnace. No matter how careful you have been financially if you are middle or working class you are going to be feeling it. The problem is those credit cards are going to be used not for extras but for necessities.

You have got to be kidding - blame the banks and credit card companies? I agree that their rates are terrible however when the offers come in the mail you have an option - throw them away/shred . . . .self responsibility.

 

[neverendingcircle]

We have dumped six trillion dollars into social programs since Lyndon B. Johnson enacted "The Great Society" in 1964. The greatest transfer of wealth in this country. What has it given us? There are still people that use the government as a way of life. It should be for people that fall on hard times, lose a job etc. Not a way of life. When the government is put in charge of anything it becomes a debacle. Check out how effecient it is. Go to the DMV to register your vehicle. What a pain in the a**. The government in charge of my life??? I think not!!!!!

 

[sparrow13]

DorothyRD:

I am just like you. I fully fund my 401K, put a substantial amount of money into savings every month, live in a modest apartment, never use my credit cards unless I can pay them off at the end of the month. We’re trying to buy a house and we are being very careful about the mortgage we finally get.

The problem is that if you are late on a credit card payment, then under the new laws if a debtor is late on one credit card, every credit card company can raise their rates, and not just a little, we’re talking about going from 10.5% to as high as 32%, in some instances in one month. (Forgive me for not citing the reference; I honestly don’t remember if it’s part of the new bankruptcy law or the credit protection act) And if someone gets sick, or loses their job, a lot of people are not in the same position to survive such a financial crisis unscathed. Also, some people have boughts of emotional binge spending like some people binge eat.

Another problem is that people are susceptible to marketing and rationalization. When you have places like National City Bank encouraging people to get a line of equity loan for something like a dream vacation and mortgage brokers encouraging ARMs when people are on the fringe of just affording the original payments, people convince themselves of a lot of non-rational things. Heck, I came very close to convincing myself that a 60” plasma TV was a necessity. If my husband hadn’t very nicely pointed out my folly I wouldn’t be watching Cathe on a perfectly good 15 year old 27” Zenith tube TV right now.

Sparrow13:

I understand your aversion to Dole Programs. The Republican Party has been very successful in making that a talking point over the years. But stereotype of people getting on the dole and turning into baby machines creating a permanent welfare class is not representative of the vast majority of people who go on the dole. Most people are on the dole for less then 3 years, and it is an avenue of last resort. My family was on welfare after my parents divorced in 1974. I remember being 4 and talking to the case worker. I know we were no longer on welfare by the time I started the first grade, so at most we were on welfare for 2 years, and in hindsight I don’t know what we would have done without food stamps and welfare payments. But my mom went on to get a bachelors degree and a masters degree and taught special needs children for over 25 years, she put 4 kids through undergrad, one through law school and another through an MBA program. Each and every one of us is successful in our chosen careers and productive members of society and we are certainly not the exception.

We actually grew up rabid Republicans. I remember becoming very adamant that “Welfare is bad” in college. (I was big fan of Rush Limbaugh) I didn’t give it much thought as to how unreasonable it was for me of all people to be anti-welfare until I was home on break one night ranting at the dinner table about people on the dole and my mom asked me if that’s what I thought of her. She reminded me that people don’t go on the dole because they want a free ride; they do it out of desperation. People who get stuck on the dole need training and counseling, not vilification. And honestly I don’t think enough money goes to food stamps.

And consciously choosing to have your vote be a throw away vote is a form of political protest I can respect. I sometimes forget that not everyone has the same goals as I do.

Thanks for your thoughts. It's not my intention to stereotype people on the dole, I just think people should be responsible for the choices they make. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that if you have already have 2 kids you can't support, you might not want to have another one. And of course my views are formed from my own experience. I'm a creative artsy type so needless to say my work is often sporadic. As a result, I've done a ton of temp work etc. over the years, mostly in HR and staffing, 'cause I enjoy those. My experience within those fields has been one of meeting sooooo many people, especially young women, who just know how to play the system from beginning to end. And if they aren't deliberately playing the system, they truly believe that the the things they get (housing, food stamps etc.) are their due. I also see this through the investment properties DH and I own. Our properties are geared towards low-income and working class people. Nice, but nothing fancy. I can't tell you how many people show up - again, lots of young woman - with a passel of kids in tow, wanting to rent from me and then getting furious when I tell them I don't take Section 8, or if they are working, point out to them that they can't afford the rent on $8 an hour and 3 children. They just get so angry! They already have the entitlement attitude that they should have one of my units simply because they want one! Many of them are pregnant with yet another child or have a vague "fiance" in the distance, fiance being current young people speak for "the dude who got me pregnant."

On the other hand, there have been times when I've come across someone on the dole who clearly is looking to get ahead in life, and I've gone out of my way to help out as much as I could. So you see I am not an ogre.

 

[PhyllisG]

I am not saying blame the banks and credit card companies as I mentioned in the beginning many have dug their own holes. Do you think they would have ANY interest in issuing credit cards if everyone paid their balance off each month? They make their money with the fees and interest which they can hike at their discretion. I know I pay my bills each month and then I get an offer to up my limit. It is called usury. I am not in credit card debt. I do not have a mortgage. My house is paid for. But it doesn't stop me from understanding how easy it can be to fall behind and get in a bind. Not everyone was out there just spending. Some fell on hard times. I hear it right here on this forum. I will not say anything except you know it could be me next time.

 

[LaughingWater]

As a former Republican, now Independent:

I agree with those who give the edge to Obama.

 

[Shelshula]

Sparrow13:

I don’t think you’re an ogre at all. I know a lot of people have had bad experiences with people who exploit situations or think they have a right to something they don’t.

I was once stopped on the street by a woman with a gaggle of children hanging off of her. She was begging for money to feed her children. I told her there was a hunger center right around the corner which could help her and she started yelling at me that she didn’t need food she needed money.

It sometimes takes an effort of will to not become cynical about the people I meet.

It doesn’t help that there are some subcultures in this country which encourage young men to get women pregnant to prove their virility. Teen pregnancy is also an almost guaranteed path to poverty.

I think I am more bothered by the corporate welfare programs, but people never seem to cite the dollar amounts on that.

And while a lot of people have gotten into horrendous debt because of their own stupidity and lack of financial responsibility, why is it ok to bail out Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae but not the individual citizens?

It is true that individuals need to accept responsibility for their share in the situation, but banks and credit card companies hold a lot of blame. We have a lot of cultural pressure to keep up with the Jones’s and the banks and credit card companies feed the frenzy. And late fees, over balance fees, high interest rates, diminishing incomes, increased expenses for food, fuel, medicines… It isn’t always easy to just say no.

 

[dorothyrd]

Maybe it is not OK to bail them out.

I still say just because there is a temptation to keep up with the Jone's(and I apologize to any Jones here), people have a responsibility to live within their means. Banks and credit cards put the stuff out there, but people have a choice whether to live with what they can afford. Taking expensive, vacations, buying expensive cars and homes, no one twisted their arm to do that.

For the folks who do budget, do watch what they do, but have the bad luck of losing their jobs, and unable to find another and are struggling, or have medical issues that have buried them, I feel for them. They rightfully need help.

 

[PhyllisG]

So we are going to bail out the big wall street banks and investment companies! And speaking of teenage pregnancy--the VP candidate's teenage daughter is pregnant. Oh well.

 

[mackenzie]

I'm not sold on either candidate. But, as a Republican I definitely will not vote for Obama for his pro-abortion issues and pro same sex marriage. So, I find myself having to vote for McCain simply because I do not want Obama running the country. Sad, but true.

I agree. When I realized Obama supported same sex marriage and pro-abortion issues, I knew I was voting for McCain. And, I just don't care for Obama.