Shoulder question for the educated crowd

B

briee

Cathlete
I'm trying hard to add some muscle to my shoulders. I'm doing heavy weight work usually three times a week (actually some of those days are more endurance in nature, but at least one heavy day), but here's the question. When I work my chest heavy....I get nice and sore the next day....I "feel" like I've torn muscle fiber and my pecs are growing. Same thing for my biceps, triceps, and back. The following day I get a nice sore pain in those muscles when I REALLY go heavy and give it my all. I NEVER get my shoulders to feel this way. I'm trying to go heavy to the point where I sometimes am loosing form (#15 pound DB's for side lat raises and by number 6 I know I'm loosing form). So I drop to 12's and go as slow as I can and keep the form and I then I do rear delt raises (I can't do more than 8-10# for these) and front raises and 20# for military presses. And it seems no matter how hard I try...the following day I don't feel like I did anything. But I know that I can't go heavier. AND I WANT THESE TO GROW...BUT THEY AREN'T, at least not as much as I want. Can anyone recommend a good heavy workout for shoulders that will produce some growth or at least explain why I can't seem to "make them sore" or work them hard enough (without injury) to tear those little fibers and get them to GROW?

Thanks

Briee
 
How long have you been working heavy, Briee? I can't imagine why you aren't seeing and feeling something with those weights! Wow! My jaw dropped when I read 15 pounds for side laterals! I never go over ten for side laterals and I'm lower for anterior and posterior because they are weaker. I don't feel comfortable with more than 12 pounds for overhead presses with dumbells, 25 on the bar. My curvy spine arches if I go up. I've got good definition but not great size and my medial deltoid is superior to it's companions. I'm still trying to lay more muscle down to round out the whole shoulder. I found Slow and Heavy shoulders to be my best workout for getting getting into those muscles and they were sore! I used the weights Cathe used. I can't believe you aren't feeling that! I don't see how you could "cheat" using such heavy weights because no other muscle group has the capacity to take up the work in a shoulder raise. I'll be interested to hear others weigh in because I'm baffled. You might have to Ask Cathe!
 
You know Bobbi....it feels like an eternity, but when I really think about serious weight work...it's been probably 22 months that I've done Cathe and before that I did Francesca Gerns weights III workout for about 8 months (I know boring, but it gave me a basic understanding of lifting weights and I really increased during that time). If I lift my arms you can see great definition and my shoulders have grown, but when I put them down....nothing. I want that solid looking cap on my shoulders and I'm so frustrated....and like I said "they just don't feel sore". I'm definitely feeling like I'm going to failure when I work out and I can't imagine doing a lot more reps than I'm doing...but the next day...nothing like I never even worked them. Do I need to go slower, more reps lower weight??? I've been doing my own shoulder work ala AJ, but maybe I should go back to slow and heavy again for a period of time, just to do something different?

I had an incident 4 weeks ago where I added a few more heavy sets of side lat raises and obviously broke form and leaned back a tad and immediately felt a "pull" in a muscle in my back. I went to the chiropractor who told me thats what happens when you get tired and lose form; you recruit an assistor type muscle which is NOT used to that weightload and walla...he makes money (or something on that order). I don't want to do this again....but I do want to get the delts worked so that I feel a good sore feeling the next day if that's possible (and I want to see them grow!!!).
 
"If I lift my arms you can see great definition and my shoulders have grown, but when I put them down....nothing. "

I am experiencing similar lack of definition in my shoulders. In my case I am seriously considering the possibility that it is my (not low enough) bodyfat level that is causing the lack of definition in the shoulder area when they are not flexed. People carry their fat in different places in their body. My legs are lean, baby, lean lean...my abs and shoulders are NOT. I am a thin, low weight person, but I am firmly convinced that my shoulders and triceps have a higher level of fat covering them. Can pinch stuff there I could never dream of pinching on my legs. Gonna work on my eating.

Just a thought I had when I read your post.

Jen
 
That "solid looking cap" is a tough thing for hard gainers. I think the posterior delt gives that full look and mine have not responded in the way the medial delt has. Maybe the key is to focus on the anterior deltoid? Mine's a shrimp. I've been reviewing all Cathe's weight work and I am going to fine tune shoulder and triceps workouts by doing the workouts that focus on all three heads of the deltoids and picking the triceps workouts that make them feel worked becaseu I don't always feel my triceps and I have to baby my left elbow and not do heavy French presses and barbell presses. I love the ME triceps work. So many workouts are focused on the medial head of the deltoid it's easy to neglect the smaller, weaker muscles. It's taking longer than I thought it would to view all the segments. When I am done I'll let you know which one's seem to have the best total shoulder work. I do love Slow/Heavy Shoulders. I'm going to do S/H and PUB/PLB in the upcoming weeks and go heavier again although I have enjoyed using lighter weights for the past few weeks. Slow and Heavy works though! I love those workouts!
Bobbi http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/chicken.gif "Chick's rule!"
 
Hi,
If you aren't seeing any changes it's time to mix it up. Perhaps you have been doing this same routine for more than a month or so? You can apply a technique such as supersetting or trisetting to mix things up. These are strictly bodyshaping or bodybuilding techniques and you won't see major strength gains but they do work for growing muscle. For these you could start out doing 3 sets of 8 the first week. The second week do 2 by 8 and the last set to COMPLETE failure. Third week, all sets to failure. Fourth week add in some different exercises and repeat. OR go back to straight sets of 3 by 8 but make sure you have absolute muscle failure at about 8 reps. OR you can try going high reps low weight for a month to hit the slow twitch fibers.....this would be sets of 25 reps.
I am currently doing supersets and trisets for the whole body. It's killer if done correctly and the pump you get is really nice. Just remember you take NO rest between the exercises in a given set. Then, perhaps a minute between the sets. A "set" would be the two or 3 exercises which you are doing back to back for a given muscle group.
Incidentally, you can superset opposing groups as well. You may already know this...:)
I want to add that I use upright rows with a barbell and they are just mandatory in my opinion for developing the shoulders and traps...
Good luck!
Trevor :)
 
I like the shoulder work in PUB, though I substitute overhead presses for the front raises (anterior shoulder is already well worked with chest work).

I remember seeing recently something about using lighter weights and more reps for shoulders, but I don't know where that was from. If lifting heavy for fewer reps hasn't been working for you, you might want to give it a try. I would also be careful about lifting too heavy for shoulders, as they are easily injured.

Rather than the front shoulder (which, when overdeveloped can lead to a slouchy appearance), or the rear shoulder (which is important to work for posture as well as shoulder stability), I think the "cap"
is actually the side lat.

A suggestion: Try doing a set of lateral raises (going to a lighter weight so you are workiing on form--using a heavier weight may actually be causing you to use muscles other than the shoulders), followed by a set of dumbbell overhead presses (I recommend using dumbbells for these because the db allows you to find a path of motion that works for your rotator cuff, and also works each side separately as well as working more stabilizing muscles to keep the bells stable). Take a minute to recover and stretch lightly, then repeat. Do this for 4-5 sets (you could also do this as a pyramid).

Don't forget to do work for the rear shoulder as well (Jerry Robinson, who owns "Health for Life" a company that does research on weight training and has come out with a series of training manuals, including "the 7-minute rotator cuff solution" claims that isolation work for the anterior delt isn't necessary, because it is engaged during chest work---my front delts are pretty much fried when I'm done with the chest work on PUB--as well as during overhead presses. Since I've taken the anterior lifts out of PUB and replaced them with overhead presses--or sometimes just eliminated them altobether--I think I've developed a more balance shoulder musculature, and better posture).
 
I strive to keep my chest work in my chest because when I feel it in my shoulders, my chest doesn't feel worked and the shoulder is so unstable, I fear I might injure myself. I know it's impossible to avoid working shoulders altogether during chest, but my front shoulder has not been much developed by my chest work which is some of the easier work for me except for pushups. I love presses and flyes. My medial deltoid is quite well developed but my anterior and posterior deltoids look puny and under-developed by comparison. I think all three heads of the deltoid need to be equally developed for the cap, at least for ectos. I'm "cappish" but I could use more balanced development of the three muscles. I think more anterior and posterior work is the way for me to go. Give me about 4 weeks and I'll let you know!
Bobbi http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/chicken.gif "Chick's rule!"
 
I was going to suggest the same thing as Jen. My arms are not big, but I think I have a fat pocket over the area where Cathe's shoulder definiton shows so beautifully. You may have the same "problem", Briee. I don't think using outrageously heavy weights for shoulders is a good idea. Look how light Cathe goes for shoulders. On PUB she uses 3, 5 and 8. She was probably just born with the shape for that gorgeous shoulder definition.

Having said that, I'm proud of my shoulder improvement. I know that my form is good and my weight keeps getting heavier, and I'm happy to think that my arms are toning up even if I may never have shoulders like Cathe's. (My legs can't get off so easy. They ARE expected to look like Cathe's }( )
 
Thanks for posting this. I'm learning a lot from what has been said. I just want to add that when I'm doing ENDURANCE chest work, I make my arms go just a tad lower to work my anterior delt. So far, I've gotten good results from this. I don't do this when I'm doing pure strength training as I'm afraid to injure my shoulders. As for posterior delts... I'm still working on them. Kathryn had a suggestion for me, and I do this instead of Cathe's post delt exercises in PS. I go on the same position as Cathe in PS-shoulders with 8's but instead of getting my arms outward into a V, I move my arms, leading with my elbows, to the side. My elbows are bent just a bit, like doing a chest flye but in reverse. It's working well for me. Something's popping out in the back, but I'd like to add some mass. Maybe I need to add more sets? Right now I'm only doing 2 sets of 10. I'm happy with my medial delts as those straight-arm and bent-arm side lateral raises have shaped them nicely. I could do these with 15's but like you I'm concerned about injury so I've moved down to 10's or 12's and I do them slowly, in a 2-2 count. Going lower also keeps other muscles from assisting and compensating for those delts.

Pinky
 
Thanks so much for your suggestions. I think Trevor may be right, I'm going to have to mix things up. When you say "I may not see strength gains, but will achieve muscle growth" - I was wondering what the explanation to this may be. I always think of strength gains in relation to muscle growth, but this is an interesting concept. (I liked Kathryn's ideas as well)

Bobbi, I am working hard on the posterior delts - mine are weenies!! (I knew what you meant :) ).

Regarding diet. I'm currently engaged in a low carb, high protein, small meals throughout the day diet with lots of veggies, salad etc. It's working, and I do think they will "show through" more when the layer of fat is gone, but I still want to build them "bigger!!!".

Let me tell ya (angela listen up), when I eat any grains, breads, etc, I immediately get a bloated layer around EVERYTHING it seems. When I cut those out, I can tell I'm much leaner within like 3 days. (Just got to stick to it!!). Thanks so much again, I'm going to try some of these ideas and I'll let ya know how they work.

Briee
 
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