Questions about Mesocycles #1 and #2

C

catiefit2

Member
I'm a little confused about why the endurance mesocycle alternates sets between body parts, while the hypertrophy mesocycle puts all the sets for the same body part together.

Mesocycle #1:
"You will do one set for each muscle group and then with only about 30 seconds rest do the next body part. For example, you will do one set for chest, rest for 30 seconds, do one set for shoulders, rest 30 seconds, do one set for biceps, rest 30 seconds, do a set again for chest, rest 30 seconds do a set for shoulders and so on until the workout is finished."

Mesocycle #2:
"Unlike in Mesocycle #1, Mesocycle #2 works each body part until completion before moving on to the next body part. In other words you will do all of your chest exercises before moving on to shoulders. You will then complete all of your shoulder exercises before moving on to triceps and so on."

I would have expected the organization to be the other way around-- that is, endurance would put all the chest exercises together, but hypertrophy would switch off between chest, shoulders, and triceps, allowing each muscle group to rest between sets. Could someone explain the rationale for this organization to me?

Also, I'm just curious why Mesocycle #1 puts chest, shoulders, and biceps together and back/triceps together (instead of the more traditional split in Mesocycle #2). Any answers out there?
 
There are many ways to construct and organize a fitness routine. All have their pros and cons. If in Meso #1 we had organized the muscle groups as you had suggested (chest, shoulders and triceps) the triceps would have received the most work as they quite often are used for chest and shoulder exercises. This means that in many cases your triceps would be worked every set while other muscle groups would only be worked once every three sets. This would result in your triceps becoming fatigued and possibly overworked preventing you from working your chest and shoulders in compound exercises like pushups and overhead presses.

In STS we have gone with the following order (chest, shoulders and biceps) for meso #1 to try to keep things more in balance because we want to make sure that no muscle group is worked for three continuous sets and that muscles groups are worked more evenly.
 
Meso #2 is set up differently. You work each muscle group before moving on to the next muscle group, unlike Meso #1 where you alternate between muscle groups. In Meso #2 We start with the larger muscle groups and then move on to smaller muscle groups. This is set up this way so that larger muscles are worked to failure before their assisting muscles are. This is why you should always work chest before working triceps.

You generally need and use your triceps to work your chest, but you rarely need your chest to work your triceps. Thus, in a hypertrophy workout like Meso #2 we have organized the muscle groups so that we first target the major muscle groups and then proceed to work the assisting muscles. This is done so that the assisting muscles are the last to be worked to failure so that they don’t fatigue and fail before the larger muscle they assist do.

You’re only as strong as your weakest link. In any strength training program you nearly always want to work your weakest link last. This is why Meso #2 is set up the way it is.
 
Thanks again for the response. I've found that when I do exercises in the order chest-shoulders-triceps, chest-shoulders-triceps, etc., I've been able to lift heavier than when I do the same exercises in the order all-chest, all-shoulders, all-triceps. Are you saying that switching the order around as I have might be less effective in some other way?
 
>Thanks again for the response. I've found that when I do
>exercises in the order chest-shoulders-triceps,
>chest-shoulders-triceps, etc., I've been able to lift heavier
>than when I do the same exercises in the order all-chest,
>all-shoulders, all-triceps. Are you saying that switching the
>order around as I have might be less effective in some other
>way?




Hi catiefit2,

In reference to your last post (and I’m just guessing here). If you’re using the typical home video, you are probably getting a longer rest cycle when you use this approach thereby finding it easier to lift heavier.


I hope you don’t mind. I thought I would give you some stuff to think about. It may or may not help. Either way, you’ll still have SNM’s input.

Alternating between body parts (as in mesocycle #1) and using multiple set routines (as in mesocycle #2) are just [two of the] different methods used to stress your muscles. Both are effective for stimulating growth as long as you use progressive overload (simply put, adding more resistance as your strength increases).

Eventually your body will adapt to a certain routine. To continue making progress you will need to mix things up. In STS, the splits are different with each mesocycle and this should help you to continue getting results. SNM has already given you their thought process for choosing the splits for mesocycle #1 & mesocycle #2.

Referring back to your question about the organization of mesocycles #1 & #2, you need to look at intensity (weight lifted), volume (reps & sets), & rest periods in order to determine if the mesocycle is endurance or hypertrophy.

Mesocyle #1 (endurance) - you will target 60-70% of your 1 Rep Max (intensity), for 15 reps (volume), with 30 second (rest) between sets.

Mesocycle #2 (hypertrophy) - you will target 70-80% of your 1 Rep Max (intensity), for 8-12 reps (volume), with 60-90 second (rest) between sets.

As you can see there is a difference in intensity, volume, & rest between #1 (endurance) & #2 (hypertrophy).




I hope you don’t mind that I chimed in,

jordan
 
Jordan, thanks for taking the time to offer your input. Longer rests are definitely part of why I can lift heavier. In some cases they might be a little longer than 60-90 seconds. But if I'm lifting heavier wouldn't that stimulate more hypertrophy than if I'm lifting a lighter weight? Or do I have to lift the weight within that 60-90 second window to see those gains, even if it's a lighter weight?
 
Hi catiefit2,

Whether you lift heavier or lighter your goal should be to select a weight that stimulates your muscles to respond. The training effect of different rep ranges combined with your 1 rep max will assist you to achieve your goals (whether they are strength & power, hypertrophy, or endurance). If your goal is hypertrophy, challenging your muscles in the 6-12 rep range is a good target (there is always some overlap to training).

Rest periods between sets are one of the things you need for your muscles to recover (sometimes you need a little more & sometimes a little less). Changes in rest periods can also be a way to change the intensity of a workout. In either case, you need to factor the rest periods into your workout. I’m not really sure what you are asking when you say “... even if it’s a lighter weight?” As I said earlier, if you’re using your 1 rep max, the lift should be challenging for you.

You may feel a difference between endurance training and hypertrophy training depending on your genetic make-up. However, 60-70 % of your 1 rep max using 15 reps with a 30 second rest can be as challenging as 70-80 % of your 1 rep max using 8-12 reps with a 60-90 second rest.


HTH,

jordan
 
I meant that after a 60 second rest, I may only be able to lift 70% x8, but after a 90 second rest, I might be able to lift 80% x8. And maybe after a 120 second rest I'd be able to lift 90% x8. I figured 90%x8 after 120s would produce better gains than 70%x8 after 60s, wouldn't it?
 
I see.

In the 3rd mesocycle of STS you’ll be lifting 80-90% of your 1 rep max for 6-8 reps with longer rest periods (or 5-7 depending on if you check the STS FAQ or the Blog). This is a strength and hypertrophy range.

If you decreased your reps and increased the % of your 1 rep max, than your training effect would be more strength & power and less hypertrophy (reps under 6 make you stronger, but they don’t necessarily make you bigger because the strength gains come from adaptations in the nervous system).

All of these cycles have their benefits.



:) ,

jordan
 
That's kind of what I was wondering-- is 90%x8 after 120s better than 70%x8 after 60s for strength, but not hypertrophy (same # of reps, but different rest periods and wts)? Meaning that Meso #2 is best for making me bigger rather than stronger?
 
I’m going to base your questions on how they relate to STS.

Here are SNMs descriptions for mesocycles 2 & 3:

MESOCYCLE #2 Hypertrophy (70% to 80% of 1RM)...here is where we build LEAN muscle mass, break plateaus, define our muscles, stimulate our metabolism....these workouts will feel similar to our Gym Style Workouts in lifting nature except with a whole new approach, various techniques, and slightly less reps (8reps to 12 reps).

Answer to your question #2 is yes.
The training effects are metabolic & neural resulting in hypertrophy & some strength gains.
There is no distinct line of separation. In other words, you’re going to see both metabolic & neural adaptations with hypertrophy being more predominant (in mesocycle #2).

MESOCYCLE # 3....Strength (80% to 90% of 1RM)…here you will do the least reps of all (6 reps to 8 reps)…and really challenge the muscle to get stronger. Your body will burn more total fat, even at rest, because you have now increased your lean muscle mass, especially in Meso #2, and overall strength.

Answer to your question #1 is yes, but you won’t always be using the same number of reps.
The training effects are neural & metabolic resulting in strength and hypertrophy.

(Again, if you moved to lower reps & an increase in the % of your 1 rep max, the training effects are neural, resulting in more strength & little hypertrophy).



HTH,

jordan
 
So if I feel that I have enough muscle mass and I really want to work on strength gains, then it sounds like I should rearrange the order of the exercises in Meso #2 to switch between body parts. Then I'd have an even greater strength foundation to build on for Meso #3.

I know that SNM isn't planning to offer premixes on individual DVDs, but will there at least be chapter points between sets so I can do this myself? I think it would make the disks a lot more versatile.

(But I'd still love a premix or a programmable option that would make this easier! SNM, are you still reading this thread?)
 
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