Question for teachers/educators

S

sarab

Cathlete
At my son's school, the students receive a citizenship grade. In the 2nd grade classroom, one of the teacher's punishments is making the kids lose a letter grade on citizenship. These grades are posted on their cubbies for everybody to see. Also, the child has to go to the cubby and mark the grade down him/herself.

Now, I always thought it was illegal to post grades. Is that right or does it vary from state to state?

Any insight will be greatly appreciated!!!!

Sara
http://www.picturetrail.com/saraburnham1
 
Sara,
I am a 1st grade teacher (have been teaching for 10 years), and although we don't give grades for citizenship (we only give +=above avg, a check for avg or an x for below avg), all teachers must have a discipline plan that reflects our school rules. I have a system in place that has a consequence of "pulling a ticket"-each child has an envelope with a green, blue, yellow and red ticket. I also give consequences that go with the color of ticket as well as natural consequences (if a child throws paper all over the floor, he/she must pick it all up). This is what most teachers I know do (or some version of it). No one I know posts students' grades for all to see. If the child's behavior is a concern, then I can agree with dropping that child down a grade, but NOT posting it for all to see-that is very inappropriate.
-Jen
 
Yes, this does sound a little bit inappropriate.

I can see the logic behind the system. Lots of behavioral consequences in the classroom are public. Students' names are written on the board for misbehavior, they may be sent to the principal's office, moved to a seat far away from a friend or from the rest of the class... but this seems different to me. Whenever I use these kinds of methods in my classroom, it is because I have to deal with a situation that is immediately disrupting the learning environment. A grade, however, represents a record of a student's past behavior, not just a current classroom situation.

You questioned the legality of the teacher's method. I should probably know this, but I'm not certain. Academic grades are absolutely protected, although the Supreme Court ruled a few years ago that students *may* grade each others' work in class as part of the lesson (the "trade-and-grade" method).

I am not certain, however, if "citizenship" grades are likewise protected.

I think it is good for students to *have* this record, and to have responsibility for it, throughout the term, so that they can see how the choices they make influence their grade. It is frustrating for kids to get poor grades after nine weeks and not have a clear sense of what they did wrong, or how they can improve.

Have you shared your concerns with the teacher yet?
 
Sara, not a teacher here but I'm pretty sure it's illegal on the university level in some states to post grades, so there's a chance teachers may not be allowed to do it on the elementary level either. :)

I'm not a parent but I honestly don't think I would have issue with this. I mean, posting it is part of the learning experience isn't it? I know that if I had come home and complained to my mom that I was embarrassed for my classmates to see my citizenship grade, her response would have been, "well, better learn to behave then," lol. :D

Sparrow


ETA: I was curious enough about this to google it and found some interesting things, such as some state school districts have, on the advice of lawyers, stopped posting honor rolls or hanging outstanding work in public places. Also, try these folks, they may have the answer:

http://www.atozteacherstuff.com/

HTH! Sparrow

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming ‘Wow - what a ride!’ — Peter Sage
 
Sara,
I'm an 8th grade teacher...posting student grades is inappropriate. If your child lost citizenship points for whatever the infraction was, that is already punishment enough. The students don't need to be publicly humiliated. I would speak to the teacher about this.

-cathy
 
I’ve taught the D.A.R.E. Program at many grade levels and for 16 years. I found over the years the children’s behavior in the classroom to be getting worse year by year. In my opinion the problem lies with the (don’t want to hurt their felling attitude). When they are adults and do the wrong thing, the punishment that is given will not take their feeling in consideration. Our children need to get the feeling of pride in good behavior. With little or no consequence for bad behavior, there is no incentive to behave well. We need to go back to some of the old ways, Parents and children need to respect the Teachers authority in the classroom.
It use to be, the child get a note from the teacher saying Johnny was bad, the parent would punish the child. Now the parent calls the teacher and insist that Johnny isn’t bad, the teacher just ask too much of poor Johnny. Then when the Police need to deal with Johnny, who never had to deal with, or has no respect for authority, problems happen.
Yes, put their name on the board.
Yes, post their grades.
No, don’t give everyone a ribbon just for competing in the Spelling Bee. The winner 2nd and 3rd place.

THE WORD IS INCENTIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!

We need to instill goals in our children lives. They need to understand, Mommy and Daddy support them, but they need to support themselfs too. They need to learn to respect authority. We as parents need to show them how by not undercutting the teachers authority.

Climbs off my soap box, and sits quietly in the corner....:)
 
I teach at the college level and it's against Unversity policy for us to post grades even if we us student ID#'s instead of names. The shame these children go through in the 2nd grade could scar them for life.
 
If there are laws like this, it would definitely vary from state to state. But I think grade disclosure depends on the policy of school. And I doubt a "citizenship grade" in 2nd grade would fall under the realm of protection.
 
I've been an ES school teacher and I feel sometimes a little "you should be ashamed of yourself" is a good thing. With the heartless, self-centered ways people behave in public nowadays, perhaps we could all do with a little more scarring for life.

In our county, we are not to put names on the board for punishment/reward. However, we do use incentive charts for academic accomplishment.

Susan L.G.
 
I agree with Susan,

I worked in Law Enforcement for 23 years, (and also taught at the College level). The young people we had to deal with most of the time were the ones that were not taught the results of their actions. They were coddled, and allowed to misbehave with little or no consequences.

If they were embarrassed into behaving in school, just maybe I wouldn’t have had to deal with them misbehaving on the streets. The scars on the streets are a lot deeper than the ones that may occur through good discipline.

Unfortunately many parents will not teach their children how to behave at home. They leave it up to the Education system to do it.

My children, like myself, were more worried of the reprecution of the parents finding out that they misbehaved in school. It’s rewarding to see they are raising their children the same way. My youngest daughter is a 2nd grade teacher.
 
I meant to say this is my 14th year as a teacher, but as Indiana Jones said, "It's not the years, it's the miles..."
 
>I’ve taught the D.A.R.E. Program at many grade levels and for
>16 years. I found over the years the children’s behavior in
>the classroom to be getting worse year by year. In my opinion
>the problem lies with the (don’t want to hurt their felling
>attitude). When they are adults and do the wrong thing, the
>punishment that is given will not take their feeling in
>consideration. Our children need to get the feeling of pride
>in good behavior. With little or no consequence for bad
>behavior, there is no incentive to behave well. We need to go
>back to some of the old ways, Parents and children need to
>respect the Teachers authority in the classroom.
>It use to be, the child get a note from the teacher saying
>Johnny was bad, the parent would punish the child. Now the
>parent calls the teacher and insist that Johnny isn’t bad, the
>teacher just ask too much of poor Johnny. Then when the
>Police need to deal with Johnny, who never had to deal with,
>or has no respect for authority, problems happen.
>Yes, put their name on the board.
>Yes, post their grades.
>No, don’t give everyone a ribbon just for competing in the
>Spelling Bee. The winner 2nd and 3rd place.
>
>THE WORD IS INCENTIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>We need to instill goals in our children lives. They need to
>understand, Mommy and Daddy support them, but they need to
>support themselfs too. They need to learn to respect
>authority. We as parents need to show them how by not
>undercutting the teachers authority.
>
>Climbs off my soap box, and sits quietly in the corner....:)
>

Bill, I agree 100 percent. I worked in daycare and at a summer camp for a number of years back in grad school, and it always amazed me that parents were not bothered by their kids bad behavior so much as they were by the fact that the kids were made to suffer consequences for it! We had parents tell us that putting kids in time out was a public humiliation, that banning kids from field trips would scar them forever, on and on. If were a parent I think I would be more concerned with my kid's behavior earning him or her an embarrassing grade in citizenship than I would be with the fact that it was posted for others to see. Public consequences for bad behavior are a part of life; seems to me like the teacher has found a way to start teaching that early. (Sara, not directing these comments at you, I have no idea of the specifics of your situation, it's just a general comment) :)

Sparrow

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming ‘Wow - what a ride!’ — Peter Sage
 
I've been reading this post with interest. Bill & others -- in many ways, I agree with what you're saying. Yes, many parents have dropped the ball in not teaching their children about self-control, consequences, how to show respect for others, and the value of education and hard work. I agree completely that not every kid deserves a ribbon for participating in the spelling bee. Nor should kids be given prizes for reading or just doing what they're SUPPOSED to be doing. And I don't think there's anything wrong with time out/detention, missing a field trip, etc. as suitable punishment. But when it comes to posting grades -- which are tied into a child's feelings about his/her ability and intelligence -- I think discretion should be used. Most second graders are eager to please; there are more positive ways to promote good behavior.
 
Thanks for the replies!!!

I have to clarify that this is not about my son. I am trying to find out info for a friend. Her son was in 2nd grade last year. My son just started K. I do have issues with the school system and this is one of them.

I have to admit though, I don't believe any child should be humiliated for any reason. This includes names on the board, grades posted, etc. These troubled children need help such as counseling. Obviously, the parents of these children are not helping with their situation. In fact, the parents might be causing bad behavior in children. We have to remember that children are children and they are not allowed to be this way in school anymore. Sometimes, I feel as if my son is attended military school!

Bill, do you think the children who grow up to be "troubled" adults would succeed at a higher level if they were treated fairly and appropriately when they were children in school? It is as if nobody is giving them a chance. After all, they are CHILDREN!!!!!

I know their are really bad kids out there. Why??? I can't sit here a blame the children. They probably get mistreated at home and get the same treatment at school. That is sad.

Public humiliation is not the answer. IMHO, it is as wrong as wrong can be. Humiliation leaves mental wounds that may never be healed, which can and will cause problems well into adulthood!!!!

http://www.picturetrail.com/saraburnham1
 
Sara, glad to hear that it is not your child having trouble :)

I honestly don't see how this method would scar a child for life, any more than being sent to the principal's office or having to stay in for recess would. If the teacher were posting academic grades I might feel otherwise, because kids have different levels of ability there, and their grade may not reflect their efforts. But what is citizenship but teaching our kids to be good neighbors really? It's teaching children how to behave in the world at large, and providing a real world consequence (embarrassment) when they don't. Just because a kid misbehaves doesn't make him or her troubled. It just makes him/her a KID, and it's our job as adults to jump in and correct the behavior.

I have to say that one of the things that struck me when I worked with kids was how little concerned they were for adult reprimands. Frankly I felt like most of the kids thought adults were a joke. You'd tell them to do something, or try to explain why their behavior was unacceptable, and they'd get this glossed over look in their eyes and generally do right back to what they were doing. And these were normal 6 year olds, from mostly good homes, at a Catholic school, not troubled kids. IMO it's because they know that most adults were just going to talk talk talk them to death instead of supplying an unpleasant consequence, and letting them know where the boundaries were. Isn't the proof in the pudding? We've had forty plus years now of indulging our children's whims and behaviors and of running intereference for them instead of letting them learn from their mistakes and, if our schools are any example, it's been something of a disaster.

Sorry for the rant! Climbing off the soapbox now and slinking away...

Sparrow <---- who knows she is one of those irritating people with zero kids and all sorts of opinions on how to raise 'em. :D



Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming ‘Wow - what a ride!’ — Peter Sage
 
"Bill, do you think the children who grow up to be "troubled" adults would succeed at a higher level if they were treated fairly and appropriately when they were children in school? It is as if nobody is giving them a chance. After all, they are CHILDREN!!!!!"
________________________________________________________________

I found that the ones that I had to deal with as a police Officer, for the most part were raised by the parent that totally shut them out, or had the "My child and I are BEST FRIENDS" attitude. Little or no consequence for misbehaving, and first to jump on the teacher for expecting their child to behave in school.

Children have friends, but they need parents. The children with parents that prepare them for the real world, by being a parent and disciplining their children, do well. We as parents should be preparing our children for adult life. In an adult life if you misbehave, you will be humiliated, handcuffed, maybe on the TV News, or Newspaper. A good parent is not one that shelters the child so much that they go into shock when the real world hits them.

For decades teachers have used the name on the board technique, and it works most of the time. I have had my name up there a few times myself, but I managed to handle that scratch.
 
Sara,

First of all, two things:
1. I appreciate your compassionate stance; you sound like a very loving and wonderful parent to me. :) (And so do you Bill! You both sound like what you really want is what's best for kids, and as a teacher, I have to love that).
2.We all have issues with the school system... believe me, teachers do most of all! LOL

The ethical/ perhaps legal concerns regarding the posting of citizenship grades is one thing.

If you really *do* have an issue with writing names on the board, though, it's going to be a difficult journey.

A teacher's job ultimately is to teach (duh:)). When I am giving instruction in a classroom of 20-30 kids, and two of them are talking or making faces at each other or passing notes, those two kids are not recieving instruction. What's worse, if they continue, pretty soon three kids will be involved in the hoopla... and then four, and so on. And then all those kids won't be learning. It's my job to take care of that, because it's my job to make sure that those kids learn something! In a classroom full of kids, there isn't really a good way to correct those students' behavior without calling attention to it. I *truly* don't mean for this to be humiliating to the student, and I don't go out of my way to make it so, but a public correction is what has to happen.

Since I teach in a middle school, we don't typically use names on the board, but kids recieve verbal warnings, seat changes, or are sometimes sent out of the room... yes with everyone watching, because often, there is no other way to do it.

You bring up a good point that some kids are very emotionally troubled, are especially sensitive and fragile, and need counselling. There are programs in schools to identify "emotionally distrubed" children, who then recieve a specialized educational/ behavioral plan tailored to their needs - without disrupting other students' opportunities for learning.

Also, keep in mind that unless you have spoken to the teacher in question about this issue yourself, you may not be getting the whole story. About 90% of the time a parent comes to me with a complaint, it is based on wrong information. It seems to be a bit like the telephone game... you know how that works. Not saying that is the case here, but thought I'd mention it since it happens so frequently in schools.

Well, I'm with Sparrow here. No kids myself, but maybe this posting will help you understand where teachers are coming from. Like everyone else, we're trying our best! :)
 
Hello,
I am an educator and what your child's teacher is doing is very inappropriate. Grades should never be in public view and humiliation in front of the whole class is never acceptable. I would talk to the teacher about this as soon as possible.
Good luck!
 
Just wanted to chime in here. I'll try to stay on topic. My daughter has always loved school. She respects authority and is a naturally happy child. In her fourth grade year, she was assigned to a teacher that taught in the manner I am hearing from some of the posts here. He would make public anytime a child forgot a book or homework sheet and produce a note that would go home to be signed by the parent. I thought this was great in theory, but his style was to do a little chant loudly and say "Look who didn't do their homework, their getting a slip tonight." He also didn't believe in encouraging and rewarding good behaviour, it was just expected, and when anyone strayed, he would make an example of the offender. My child was never a problem, as he would describe, but she was so anxious of being made an example of, we started to see regressive behaviour. She started sucking her thumb again, which she had give up for over a year before, she would cry at night if she didn't understand her homework, in fear of getting the dreaded homework slip, she cried in the morning before school, she started having sleep issues. She was not the only child with these types of regressive issues while in this teachers class. I'm happy to report that her 5th grade teacher was a positive teaching style type and my daughter learned to love school again. If a student was an issue, that student went quietly to the principals office, not made an example to the class and publicly humiliated. As an adult, I would not want to be at work and have my boss come on the the floor and publicly announce that I was being fired, and the reasons given for all to hear. As in the "real world" I think teachers should behave in the manner an employer would.

Okay, here is where I'm going to stray off the topic a bit.

My youngest child is diagnosed with Bipolar diorder and he has many other coexisting issues as well. As with this disorder, he is often an "issue" for the teacher. While I am constantly getting calls from the school on his problem behaviour, he has never been sent to the principal, he is always disiplined in front of the class. I am told they do this so the rest of the class will understand it is not acceptable behaviour. As you can imagine, getting my child to school is a problem EVERYDAY. My question is, why are so many teachers taking it upon themselves to disipline. When did the principal get taken out of the equation. Why publicly humiliate a student. When I was growing up, just being sent to the office was enough to deter student from acting out. If your going to punish a child, do it away from peers. Yes, I believe all children should face consequences, and severe if warranted, but making it public knoweledge is totally uncalled for.

Whew, I guess this touched a nerve.

Tina
 
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