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OT: my dog bites (long)
- Thread starter Dutchie42
- Start date
I suggest going to NationGeographic.com and see if you can find an email address for Cesear Milan, "The Dog Whisperer". Maybe he can help you, because if something isn't done soon, someone (or their pet) will get hurt. I too think the animal should be muzzled before taking it out.
Good luck,
DeeDee
Good luck,
DeeDee
Oh I'm sorry for your situation. I love dogs.
The dog we have now was starting some dominace problems and I was quickly able to get her under control by changing some of our habits with her. I used the *nothing for free* method of never letting her have anything(food, go outside, come inside, get in the vehicle, etc) without doing one of my commands first. Instead of bolting out the door I made her sit and wait until I said she could go. Sleeping arrangements are important to a dog too, don't let the dog on human beds. Food of course is very important to them. One thing that my dog responded very surprizingly to was I made her think that I took the first bite of her food. She really glared at me for this and went submissive instantly. These things definately kicked her off any dominance issues she was developing.
I don't know if your pups problems are dominance though. You said he doesn't display any warnings, he just snaps. I grew up with a dog just like this. He was formerly abused. I cannot imagine why we kept that dog all those years but thinking back it was probably because I loved the dog to bits and my parents didn't want to upset that. They should have put that dog down, no questions asked! He bit me many times. My neice has a scar on her face today at age 40 from this dog. Yes as a child I loved that dog, he was as sweet and cute as could be most of the time, but something about his past gave him aggression that could not be reversed. I agree with the others here that say you must put the dog down. Don't take him back to the shelter, take him to the vet and have him euthanized. Then go get a puppy that you know doesn't have any history of abuse. You don't want your kids to wonder later why in the world you ever kept a dog that bites in the family.
The dog we have now was starting some dominace problems and I was quickly able to get her under control by changing some of our habits with her. I used the *nothing for free* method of never letting her have anything(food, go outside, come inside, get in the vehicle, etc) without doing one of my commands first. Instead of bolting out the door I made her sit and wait until I said she could go. Sleeping arrangements are important to a dog too, don't let the dog on human beds. Food of course is very important to them. One thing that my dog responded very surprizingly to was I made her think that I took the first bite of her food. She really glared at me for this and went submissive instantly. These things definately kicked her off any dominance issues she was developing.
I don't know if your pups problems are dominance though. You said he doesn't display any warnings, he just snaps. I grew up with a dog just like this. He was formerly abused. I cannot imagine why we kept that dog all those years but thinking back it was probably because I loved the dog to bits and my parents didn't want to upset that. They should have put that dog down, no questions asked! He bit me many times. My neice has a scar on her face today at age 40 from this dog. Yes as a child I loved that dog, he was as sweet and cute as could be most of the time, but something about his past gave him aggression that could not be reversed. I agree with the others here that say you must put the dog down. Don't take him back to the shelter, take him to the vet and have him euthanized. Then go get a puppy that you know doesn't have any history of abuse. You don't want your kids to wonder later why in the world you ever kept a dog that bites in the family.
I am pretty sure it is not a dominance problem. It's more a fear response he's displaying when he tries to bite others. For instance, we are walking in the street. I see someone coming towards us. I look at Rover and he pricks his ears. I pull Rover in closer to me so I have more control. This person walks past and Rover turns his head. Then suddenly, without warning, he turns round and tries to bite the other person in the legs. Then he immediately makes himself really small. Almost throws himself to the ground. If a dog bites to be dominant, he tries to bite higher up, preferably the neck or face. And he makes himself as big as possible. At least, that's what I've been taught when I was in obedience class with him. Fear biting always occurs with the dog staying low to the ground.
Now a dog doesn't bite unless there's a reason. This reason only has to be ligitimate in doggie world, not the human world. He can respond to a colour, a sound, a high pitched voice, glasses someone is wearing. They're all legitimate reasons in doggie world, if the dog has never seen it before when he was a puppy and it frightens him or if he links it to a bad event in his life and he knows he can't get away because he's on a leash. He'll bite as a last defense. Or if he has learned from previous experience that biting means the "threat" will go away.
So it's really hard for me to accept that he should be put down cause I am so sure it's not his fault. And I keep wanting to find the magic pill that will cure him. And he really is a sweet lovely dog. But I can't take the risk of him actually really biting someone either.
I really have a hard time deciding on this. The dog trainer I spoke of earlier is a dog behaviourist. Maybe not a good one....
Thanks everyone for your advice. I've been reading it and re-reading it and thinking about it... and it's still a very difficult decision.
Dutchie
Now a dog doesn't bite unless there's a reason. This reason only has to be ligitimate in doggie world, not the human world. He can respond to a colour, a sound, a high pitched voice, glasses someone is wearing. They're all legitimate reasons in doggie world, if the dog has never seen it before when he was a puppy and it frightens him or if he links it to a bad event in his life and he knows he can't get away because he's on a leash. He'll bite as a last defense. Or if he has learned from previous experience that biting means the "threat" will go away.
So it's really hard for me to accept that he should be put down cause I am so sure it's not his fault. And I keep wanting to find the magic pill that will cure him. And he really is a sweet lovely dog. But I can't take the risk of him actually really biting someone either.
I really have a hard time deciding on this. The dog trainer I spoke of earlier is a dog behaviourist. Maybe not a good one....
Thanks everyone for your advice. I've been reading it and re-reading it and thinking about it... and it's still a very difficult decision.
Dutchie
>
>For instance, we are walking in the street. I see someone
>coming towards us. I look at Rover and he pricks his ears. I
>pull Rover in closer to me so I have more control. This person
>walks past and Rover turns his head.
Do you think he is picking up on you being worried? You see someone, pull him close, leash gets tight...he thinks oh no mom is worried about this person, I must be worried about this person... Fear goes straight down the leash to the dog. He might think that you want him to take over leadhership and decide who is ok and who is not ok. If he isn't getting rules in the household, this may be the case.
>Then suddenly, withoutwarning, he turns round and tries to bite the other person inthe legs.
This is the part that worries me. It is harder to rehabilitate a dog that bites without warning. It makes the dog more dangerous to deal with.
> If a dog bites to be dominant, he tries to bite higher up, preferably the neck or face. And he makes himself as big as possible.
Is is possible that he cannot do this with the GL on? Actually with dog fights, usually neck/face bites are not the ones you worry about. You worry when the dog goes for the body parts. I am not sure this is true with people tho. I have a friend who's dog bites and is could be a dominant biter. She knows better than to really bite so she chases and nips at feet...but it isn't out of fear.
>So it's really hard for me to accept that he should be put
>down cause I am so sure it's not his fault. And I keep wanting
>to find the magic pill that will cure him. And he really is a
>sweet lovely dog. But I can't take the risk of him actually
>really biting someone either.
It is hard. I've had to put two dogs down due to aggression. Doesn't mean they are bad dogs per se but maybe can't follow the rules to live with humans. It is a tough decision to make. Don't rush, take your time and try everything you can first. But be safe, ok??
Also how bad are the bites? Is the severity getting worse? It sounds like he may have good bite inhibition, which is a good thing. You haven't mentioned anyone needing stitches or dr. care.
And what breed is he? That may help determine personality characteristics.
Also, personally I'm not real keen on the Dog Whisperer's techniques. I know he's been bit quite a few times on his program. He uses flooding and desensitizing techniques and I'd rather use positive techniques, which can still be used with aggression. For example, flooding. Say you are afraid of rats. Someone puts you in the middle of the room covered in rats....you learn to deal with it. So now you don't like them but you can tolerate them. Me...I'd rather give you a piece of chocolate when you saw a picture of a rat. Then put a rat in a cage and give you chocolate. Then have me hold the rat and let you come close...and give you chocolate. I'd rather make positive associations than force something.
Colleen
>For instance, we are walking in the street. I see someone
>coming towards us. I look at Rover and he pricks his ears. I
>pull Rover in closer to me so I have more control. This person
>walks past and Rover turns his head.
Do you think he is picking up on you being worried? You see someone, pull him close, leash gets tight...he thinks oh no mom is worried about this person, I must be worried about this person... Fear goes straight down the leash to the dog. He might think that you want him to take over leadhership and decide who is ok and who is not ok. If he isn't getting rules in the household, this may be the case.
>Then suddenly, withoutwarning, he turns round and tries to bite the other person inthe legs.
This is the part that worries me. It is harder to rehabilitate a dog that bites without warning. It makes the dog more dangerous to deal with.
> If a dog bites to be dominant, he tries to bite higher up, preferably the neck or face. And he makes himself as big as possible.
Is is possible that he cannot do this with the GL on? Actually with dog fights, usually neck/face bites are not the ones you worry about. You worry when the dog goes for the body parts. I am not sure this is true with people tho. I have a friend who's dog bites and is could be a dominant biter. She knows better than to really bite so she chases and nips at feet...but it isn't out of fear.
>So it's really hard for me to accept that he should be put
>down cause I am so sure it's not his fault. And I keep wanting
>to find the magic pill that will cure him. And he really is a
>sweet lovely dog. But I can't take the risk of him actually
>really biting someone either.
It is hard. I've had to put two dogs down due to aggression. Doesn't mean they are bad dogs per se but maybe can't follow the rules to live with humans. It is a tough decision to make. Don't rush, take your time and try everything you can first. But be safe, ok??
Also how bad are the bites? Is the severity getting worse? It sounds like he may have good bite inhibition, which is a good thing. You haven't mentioned anyone needing stitches or dr. care.
And what breed is he? That may help determine personality characteristics.
Also, personally I'm not real keen on the Dog Whisperer's techniques. I know he's been bit quite a few times on his program. He uses flooding and desensitizing techniques and I'd rather use positive techniques, which can still be used with aggression. For example, flooding. Say you are afraid of rats. Someone puts you in the middle of the room covered in rats....you learn to deal with it. So now you don't like them but you can tolerate them. Me...I'd rather give you a piece of chocolate when you saw a picture of a rat. Then put a rat in a cage and give you chocolate. Then have me hold the rat and let you come close...and give you chocolate. I'd rather make positive associations than force something.
Colleen
67firecracker
Cathlete
As we established your dog is a fear biter and this is not a dominance problem I was recommended this website by my 'dog mentor.' Hope it helps.
http://www.leerburg.com/qafear.htm#fb
Trish
http://www.leerburg.com/qafear.htm#fb
Trish
bestoutwest
Cathlete
I am a veterinarian and have been consulted about dogs like this. I would approach it this way:
1. Thorough physical exam and blood/urine tests to make sure there is not a medical reason for the aggression. This includes examining the mouth for broken or damaged teeth and checking for middle or inner ear infections. Sometimes these conditions can be so painful, that dogs will strike out just to get attention.
2. If all of the above is normal, I would work with a good veterinary behaviorist, starting with the very basic program which deals with making the dog respect you and all members of the household by performing simple, repetitive tasks. Karen Overall, here in the states has an excellent program that I use, great handouts that I send home with the clients. The head collar is an excellent tool and I would never consider using anything else on this dog.
3. If, after following a good program for 6-8 weeks, the dog is still showing signs of aggression, I would probably recommend euthanasia. This is a dog that probably has very deep issues and will probably never be trustworthy. I would hate the thought of an aggressive bite to you or one of your children. This dog is a real liability and if he bit someone else, you could be sued and the dog would likely have to be destroyed anyway.
I am absolutely an animal advocate! If you are interested in the handouts that I have access to, please e-mail me and I can send them to you. Good Luck and be careful!!!
Edie ([email protected])
1. Thorough physical exam and blood/urine tests to make sure there is not a medical reason for the aggression. This includes examining the mouth for broken or damaged teeth and checking for middle or inner ear infections. Sometimes these conditions can be so painful, that dogs will strike out just to get attention.
2. If all of the above is normal, I would work with a good veterinary behaviorist, starting with the very basic program which deals with making the dog respect you and all members of the household by performing simple, repetitive tasks. Karen Overall, here in the states has an excellent program that I use, great handouts that I send home with the clients. The head collar is an excellent tool and I would never consider using anything else on this dog.
3. If, after following a good program for 6-8 weeks, the dog is still showing signs of aggression, I would probably recommend euthanasia. This is a dog that probably has very deep issues and will probably never be trustworthy. I would hate the thought of an aggressive bite to you or one of your children. This dog is a real liability and if he bit someone else, you could be sued and the dog would likely have to be destroyed anyway.
I am absolutely an animal advocate! If you are interested in the handouts that I have access to, please e-mail me and I can send them to you. Good Luck and be careful!!!
Edie ([email protected])
Dutchie,
I know LA is not a reasonable location for you, but I thought this website for cesar millan might give you some ideas and hope for your situation. He's truly amazing to watch in action.
http://www.dogpsychologycenter.com/
Ginny
I know LA is not a reasonable location for you, but I thought this website for cesar millan might give you some ideas and hope for your situation. He's truly amazing to watch in action.
http://www.dogpsychologycenter.com/
Ginny
67firecracker
Cathlete
Keep me posted - I'd love to hear his advice.
Trish
Trish
Dutchie, I am a pretty ignorant dog lover. My stupid FAT chihuahua takes over my world. But, honestly I have a wide range here with either a Shitz-zu that was left to roam our neihborhood until we took her in or any of our cats or dogs that we care for. Look, my feeling is, and maybe I'm too late, I hope you have the patience for her. From what I understood, your kids are older, they can watch over themselves. Please, I mean no one harm, but I know, if, I had no small children, I might just give him a chance. His life may not be much longer than ours, and all I can think of is just letting him live it as he he feels best. Your kids can surely protect themselves, they are older & they won't put up withj a dog's growl.
Please be nice, Dutchie, I kinda avoided this thread for a reason.
Please be nice, Dutchie, I kinda avoided this thread for a reason.
Hi Trish,
He answered just a few hours after I sent the email. His reply was short: he isn't a fan of group obedience class, but prefers individual training in a distraction free environment. He advises obedience (recommends his dvd basic obedience) and to live with the dog a different way (doesn't specify what he wants me to do). He advises the use of a prong collar, but I'm very much against that. We use a sliplead and gentle leader. And he advises to search his site.
I have ordered his dvd (it's 4 hours).
And Edie was so kind to offer to post me material on dogs. All that, plus some advice here on the boards should help. I will give Rover and myself time to try and learn, training him in my backyard (10 steps in one direction, 6 steps in the other direction, so not big enough to keep a dog his size in all the time).
Dutchie
He answered just a few hours after I sent the email. His reply was short: he isn't a fan of group obedience class, but prefers individual training in a distraction free environment. He advises obedience (recommends his dvd basic obedience) and to live with the dog a different way (doesn't specify what he wants me to do). He advises the use of a prong collar, but I'm very much against that. We use a sliplead and gentle leader. And he advises to search his site.
I have ordered his dvd (it's 4 hours).
And Edie was so kind to offer to post me material on dogs. All that, plus some advice here on the boards should help. I will give Rover and myself time to try and learn, training him in my backyard (10 steps in one direction, 6 steps in the other direction, so not big enough to keep a dog his size in all the time).
Dutchie
No you're not too late Marla ;-) I've decided to take Edie's advice and try more training for 6-8 weeks. I'll use advice on this board and from other sources (including training material). I will also take him to our own national (Dutch) celebrity dog behaviourist to get advice (very expensive and quite a trip). If Rover's behaviour doesn't change, I have no choice but to discuss euthanasia with my own vet. But at least I feel like I have tried everything I could and have helped him try to change his behaviour.
And you're right, my kids are big enough not to put up with Rover growling or showing teeth. They immediately throw him to the ground and yell at him that he should know his place. When they let go he always immediately turns to his back and stays there until they tell him to get up.
With the gentle leader, he can only bite if I let him. He can only show his teeth. Takes a lot of awareness of my surroundings from me when I walk him, but I prefer that to a muzzle. And as long as I make sure people are not passing him on his side he doens't pay attention to them.
Thanks,
Dutchie
And you're right, my kids are big enough not to put up with Rover growling or showing teeth. They immediately throw him to the ground and yell at him that he should know his place. When they let go he always immediately turns to his back and stays there until they tell him to get up.
With the gentle leader, he can only bite if I let him. He can only show his teeth. Takes a lot of awareness of my surroundings from me when I walk him, but I prefer that to a muzzle. And as long as I make sure people are not passing him on his side he doens't pay attention to them.
Thanks,
Dutchie
Only with the dog trainer he scratched the skin when biting, but not severe enough to warrant doctor's attention. The other bite incident with the neighbour ended with a bruise and when he did it with my son and me he was just making contact, more like "I'm warning you, stop the shouting..."
With the gentle leader he can jump up if he really wants to, but if I pull the leash, he can't open his jaws until I loosen the leash again.
Rover is a labradorXborder collie. So something between a typical family dog and a working dog. I don't see much of the border collie characteristics in his behaviour. All he has from that side, I think, are a few white hairs on his chest ;-))
Dutchie
With the gentle leader he can jump up if he really wants to, but if I pull the leash, he can't open his jaws until I loosen the leash again.
Rover is a labradorXborder collie. So something between a typical family dog and a working dog. I don't see much of the border collie characteristics in his behaviour. All he has from that side, I think, are a few white hairs on his chest ;-))
Dutchie