Need advice from veggies, please

[hiitdogs]

Just want to add, and I hope this sounds as supportive and kind as it is meant -- vegetarianism IS an all-or-nothing deal. If you eat fish, you're not a vegetarian. You may be a "mostly vegetarian" or an "almost vegetarian" or a pescatarian, or whatever -- and all those are great things to be, no criticism or judgment implied! -- but you're not a vegetarian. This matters because people like me, who actually are vegetarians (eg, do not eat any animals, fish or otherwise), end up in awkward situations, even get hassled by people who say to us "But vegetarians eat fish! My cousin/friend/son-in-law is a vegetarian, and he eats fish!" I'm sick of having to defend/argue/explain. I'm sick of telling people I'm vegetarian, and then having them pick a restaurant with no vegetarian food, because, well, what's my problem, just order the fish! Because I'm a vegetarian, that's why.

This maybe a stupid question but why do you defend/argue/explain? I think to let people know what the "true" meaning of being vegetarian or vegan is only important if I care about labels and defined limits. Personally, I don't think I am defined by my diet. Being vegetarian or vegan may be an all-or-nothing thing to you but it may not be to the next person. And I think the OP said "almost vegetarian". Most people will just start out by leaving out red meat or cutting out dairy, the majority of people won't go vegan or vegetarian "cold turkey" (no pun intended).

If your challenge is the restaurant, I have found that most restaurants offer vegetarian or even vegan choices these days. Even if they don't on the menu most will be happy to accomodate you or even let you special order. Usually I just ask them to leave out the chicken, meat or eggs from the salad. I have gotten some really yummy grilled veggies at a steak house the other day.

 

[Stephanie0523]

Just want to add, and I hope this sounds as supportive and kind as it is meant -- vegetarianism IS an all-or-nothing deal. If you eat fish, you're not a vegetarian. You may be a "mostly vegetarian" or an "almost vegetarian" or a pescatarian, or whatever -- and all those are great things to be, no criticism or judgment implied! -- but you're not a vegetarian. This matters because people like me, who actually are vegetarians (eg, do not eat any animals, fish or otherwise), end up in awkward situations, even get hassled by people who say to us "But vegetarians eat fish! My cousin/friend/son-in-law is a vegetarian, and he eats fish!" I'm sick of having to defend/argue/explain. I'm sick of telling people I'm vegetarian, and then having them pick a restaurant with no vegetarian food, because, well, what's my problem, just order the fish! Because I'm a vegetarian, that's why.

I don't care what title people give me. Mostly vegetarian. Pescatarian. Non-mammal eater... I'm not in it for the title. Just wanted to try it on for size. I totally understand that I'm not a true vegetarian. And I don't want to belittle the true vegetarian lifestyle. Thanks for the info on tofu! The times I have had it, it has been prepared by professional chefs, so I suppose it's me and not the tofu.

 

[Stephanie0523]

Oh! I wanted to share with you guys.. Rachel Ray made an amazing meatless meal on her show today. Check it out: http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/...arden-vegetables-and-greens-recipe/index.html

She served it with bruscetta (sp?) topped with cherry tomatoes. She drizzled some olive oil in a saute pan and grated some garlic into it, then added a pint of cherry tomatoes, covered and sauteed until the tomatoes popped. Then she added some red pepper flakes and topped the bruscetta. YUMMY!!!

She served strawberries sprinkled with sugar (but you could use Truvia or whatever you like) and a little lemon juice and lemon zest for dessert.

The entire meal made me want to go to the farmer's market ASAP!

 

[wendygurl]

I'm so glad I came upon this thread because I have been sort of doing the same thing myself. I have given up meat altogether for the past week. Believe it or not, i had been toying off and on with this for about a year. the final realization came to me when I passed a truck full of chickens the other day. I was horrified by the sight of it.
I am probably never going to give up cheese, so Vegan is out of the question. But meat/flesh i'm going to try. I also wanted to add, my parents are ruthless to me about this when we have dinner. They are elderly lifelong meateaters who don't understand. They are in their 70's and truly it is not worth my effort to argue. I just pass by the meat and hope they keep their mouths shut.

 

[kathryn]

If you eat fish, you're not a vegetarian. You may be a "mostly vegetarian" or an "almost vegetarian" or a pescatarian, or whatever -- and all those are great things to be, no criticism or judgment implied! -- but you're not a vegetarian. This matters because people like me, who actually are vegetarians (eg, do not eat any animals, fish or otherwise), end up in awkward situations, even get hassled by people who say to us "But vegetarians eat fish! My cousin/friend/son-in-law is a vegetarian, and he eats fish!" I'm sick of having to defend/argue/explain. I'm sick of telling people I'm vegetarian, and then having them pick a restaurant with no vegetarian food, because, well, what's my problem, just order the fish! Because I'm a vegetarian, that's why.

Amen, sister!

 

[morningstar]

Just want to add, and I hope this sounds as supportive and kind as it is meant -- vegetarianism IS an all-or-nothing deal. If you eat fish, you're not a vegetarian. You may be a "mostly vegetarian" or an "almost vegetarian" or a pescatarian, or whatever -- and all those are great things to be, no criticism or judgment implied! -- but you're not a vegetarian. This matters because people like me, who actually are vegetarians (eg, do not eat any animals, fish or otherwise), end up in awkward situations, even get hassled by people who say to us "But vegetarians eat fish! My cousin/friend/son-in-law is a vegetarian, and he eats fish!" I'm sick of having to defend/argue/explain. I'm sick of telling people I'm vegetarian, and then having them pick a restaurant with no vegetarian food, because, well, what's my problem, just order the fish! Because I'm a vegetarian, that's why.

I absolutely agree. And this isn't a judgement - I could care less what other people eat and whether someone eats fish or meat or paper just doesn't matter to me. But if you eat fish or meat or poultry, you're not a vegetarian. You might be many other things and might eat a diet predominantly made up of vegetables, but you're not a vegetarian. It doesn't make you a bad person or even an unhealthy one, but please don't say you're mostly vegetarian - it's like being a little bit pregnant.

 

[JoanC]

Please give me a good definition of vegetarian and vegan. My son moved to Portland Or and many of his friends are one or the other. I have always accomodated any food for them but I must say no one has ever criticized me for making a mistake. It was my understanding that if you were vegetarian you would eat eggs, butter and milk but no meat and if you were vegan that was none of the above. Some of the self professed vegetarians did eat fish. Under their common vernacular you may be better understood if you said you were vegan.

 

[kathryn]

Please give me a good definition of vegetarian and vegan.

Vegetarian: eats plants with the optional addition of dairy (lacto-vegetarians) and/or eggs (lacto-ovo-vegetarians. ovo-vegetarians would describe the latter, but the term isn't really used).

Vegan: eats plants (or, if you take the traditional division of things into animal, vegetable and mineral, vegans only eat the last two).

 

[hiitdogs]

I really don't get what the big deal is about people saying that they eat (or are) mostly vegetarian. If I eat vegetarian Monday to Thursday, Saturday and Sunday but eat fish on Friday, I still eat mostly vegetarian.

Vegetarian is a way of eating, like eating Italian, French, German, whatever. Being pregnant is a completely different thing. No one gets their knickers in a twist because someone says "I eat mostly Italian". But if I say I mostly eat vegetarian, it's like violated one of the 12 commandments.

Personally, I feel labeling other people leads to diminishing and scaring off people, and contributes to a good thing like eating vegetarian or vegan getting a bad reputation because of the holier-than-the-pope attitude of some vegetarians or vegans. I like the definition of the Passionate Vegetarian, it is inclusive, welcoming, non-proselytizing, and absolutely respectful of anyone's food choices.

 

[Stephanie0523]

The way I understand it, veganism is much more than just eating no animal products. Most vegans I know are strict about not utilizing any animal products whatsoever...no leather, fur, etc. I really admire that way of life.

As for labels, I don't think that it really matters, does it? I mean, truly... why would it matter so much? I am a very liberal democrat, but I am pro-life. Odd, but true. Doesn't make me less of a liberal. Most of my "blonde" friends are bottle blondes, but they don't say..."I'm actually a brunette-blonde..."

I only would refer to myself as a vegetarian if I needed to, like I thought I was going to have to the other day when the sample lady at the grocery store tried to shove an Italian sausage in my face, after I repeatedly said, "No thank you." Lately, I've just told people that I'm trying to go meat-free. I rarely eat fish, but I do love it. I separate fish from mammals for some reason. It's easier for me to be OK with eating fish/shellfish than a cow or a pig. (Though I did love prosciutto...) As I said, I'm just trying it on for size. One week does not a vegetarian make. But, if I do wind up sticking with it, as is my hope, I will eventually label myself when need be as a vegetarian. Just because pescatarian or lacto-ovo-pesca-vegetarian sounds so darn ridiculous.
Don't take offense, please.

 

[marmalade]

A meal with only a little bit of meat in it is not a vegetarian meal, and a person who eats only a little bit of animals is not a vegetarian.

That isn't about "labels", nor is it about condemning anyone, or taking offense.

It's about clarity and communication.

Words have definitions. Using them accurately is helpful in communicating with each other. It's that simple. When words are frequently misused, as "vegetarian" is, it can lead to significant confusion. And who wants that?

And even though I do not support using the word "vegetarian" inaccurately, I wholeheartedly support everyone's right to eat whatever they want.

 

[wendy loo]

Thank you Kathryn and everyone else for your advice and experiences. I appreciate hearing everyone's thoughts and ideas.

Wendy

 

[hiitdogs]

A meal with only a little bit of meat in it is not a vegetarian meal, and a person who eats only a little bit of animals is not a vegetarian.

That isn't about "labels", nor is it about condemning anyone, or taking offense.

It's about clarity and communication.

Words have definitions. Using them accurately is helpful in communicating with each other. It's that simple. When words are frequently misused, as "vegetarian" is, it can lead to significant confusion. And who wants that?

And even though I do not support using the word "vegetarian" inaccurately, I wholeheartedly support everyone's right to eat whatever they want.

To me, that's how it comes across though, as labeling people and being upset and angry that people don't know that you won't eat fish or whatever it is that you don't eat. I still don't see what the big deal is if I "have to" explain to people that I won't or can't eat xyz food because stupid them don't know what the true meaning of being a vegetarian is I don't see how it hurts me to say, hey I don't/can't/won't eat xyz, or how it hurts me that I have to explain it more than once . Maybe people can relate better if I explain why I don't eat xyz, instead of just saying I don't eat it because I am vegetarian. Just a thought.

That being said, unlike vegan which CAN be a lifestyle, vegetarian is NOT, it is a way of eating, like eating Italian. If I eat Italian 6 meals out of 7 I still eat mostly Italian, if I eat healthy 6 days and have one cheat day I still eat "mostly healthy", just like if I eat 6 out 7 vegetarian meal, I eat mostly vegetarian. That's not a matter of definition, it is a matter of fact.

 

[kathryn]

I eat mostly vegetarian. That's not a matter of definition, it is a matter of fact.

I have no problem with people saying they eat "mostly vegetarian" It seems quite descriptive and clear. It's certainly better, IMO, than some term like pesco-vegetarian (which suggests eating fish is vegetarian) or pollo-vegetarian (same for poultry). (Heck, why not "bovi-vegetarian" or "porci-vegetarian" or even "anthropo-vegetarian"?)

The problem is when people don't use the "mostly" (or similar word) and just use "vegetarian" to describe a diet that is not vegetarian. (and with those who eat fish and chicken and call themselves vegetarian).

Yes "vegetarian" can describe a type of meal, but vegetarian can be a lifestyle as well, though it doesn't usually go beyond food into clothing and other areas the way veganism does. I really don't see the parallel between "Italian" or "Chinese" or whatever type of ethnic food and "vegetarian."



For some reason, we humans seem to like labeling things and categorizing things. But I've never really understood the reason why some who aren't vegetarian wanting to call themselves so?

People are vegetarians for many reasons. Perhaps those who do it for health reasons are less concerned about what it means than are those who do it for ethical reasons?

 

[morningstar]

I just keep thinking "I eat mostly vegetarian" means that someone is eating vegetarians, mostly!

 

[hiitdogs]

I have no problem with people saying they eat "mostly vegetarian" It seems quite descriptive and clear. It's certainly better, IMO, than some term like pesco-vegetarian (which suggests eating fish is vegetarian) or pollo-vegetarian (same for poultry). (Heck, why not "bovi-vegetarian" or "porci-vegetarian" or even "anthropo-vegetarian"?)

The problem is when people don't use the "mostly" (or similar word) and just use "vegetarian" to describe a diet that is not vegetarian. (and with those who eat fish and chicken and call themselves vegetarian).

Yes "vegetarian" can describe a type of meal, but vegetarian can be a lifestyle as well, though it doesn't usually go beyond food into clothing and other areas the way veganism does. I really don't see the parallel between "Italian" or "Chinese" or whatever type of ethnic food and "vegetarian."



For some reason, we humans seem to like labeling things and categorizing things. But I've never really understood the reason why some who aren't vegetarian wanting to call themselves so?

People are vegetarians for many reasons. Perhaps those who do it for health reasons are less concerned about what it means than are those who do it for ethical reasons?

ROTFL!!! Bovi vegetarian? Porci vegetarian????

I don't know, Kathryn, it may just be a matter of symantics. I understand where you are coming from and I agree that if someone eats fish or poultry, it's really not vegetarian in the strict sense of the word or even the spirit of it.
But ovo-lacto vegetarian or pesco vegetarian is pretty clear and those are definitions that were introduced and are valid although they may not meet the "true" meaning of vegetarism. Although semi-vegetarian still has me scratch my head

I don't expect other people to know the "proper" definitions of what it is that I eat, nor do I expect them to care. If they do fine! But the world doesn't revolve around me. If everyone wants to go to a restaurant that doesn't have much that I can eat, I won't complain, I'll just make do with whatever I can eat there and the next time I will drag my meat eating friends to a raw, vegan restaurant

 

[marmalade]

Carola, I would really like to engage your comments seriously and respectfully, and I've started writing a response a few times now... and I find myself utterly at a loss. You reject my offering a standard definition of the term "vegetarian" (found in any dictionary). Then you go on to use the term yourself, but without saying what you mean by it instead... leaving me unable, frankly, to know what you are trying to say. I am unfortunately dependent on the shared understanding provided by a common language, as I am human and do not have any telepathic ability.

Beyond that, the arguments you are making appear to me to be lacking not just in external coherence, but internal consistency.

As a result I just don't know what to say, because I cannot be sure I'm understanding you. I can guess and leap to assumptions, of course. I could even extrapolate wildly from you said based on those assumptions and guesses -- as you have done with my posts -- but that's not my style.

I bow out of this. It has no chance of being productive. I feel that I am involved in a discussion with someone who is not seeking mutual understanding, but an argument. No good can come of that.

I will say, though, that I remain convinced that all of this would be simpler if we would all just use a dictionary.

I regret our apparently mutual misunderstanding, and wish you well.

 

[hiitdogs]

I will say, though, that I remain convinced that all of this would be simpler if we would all just use a dictionary.

I think the world would be a much better place if people just communicated instead of thinking that the world revolves around them and insisting that their friends and associates know "exact" definitions of vegetarism. By communicating I don't mean defending and arguing (because that may not be clear in the dictionary either)

That being said, the English language continues to evolve and rightly or wrongly pesco vegetarian is a word that is being used. It may be inconsistent with the original intent of the Vegetarian Society, as is lacto ovo vegetarism (in my opinion) but it is nevertheless used. In the true and original sense the word vegetarism means a plant-based diet and that does not include dairy and eggs.

So you go ahead and keep defending and arguing while accusing others of seeking an argument.

 

[dr.mel_PT]

I also LOVE Ezekiel English muffins. I eat one nearly every day for lunch with a little natural pb, ground flax seeds and a dab of honey.

Where do you buy your Ezekiel English Muffins? I love Ezekiel bread and usually get it from Trader Joe's, but I went today and they looked at me like I had 10 heads when I asked about the muffins!

 

[kathryn]

I just keep thinking "I eat mostly vegetarian" means that someone is eating vegetarians, mostly!

I read a short sci-fi story years ago with exactly that plot (a futur world that is polluted, and the only 'clean' meat is vegetarians, who will their bodies to meat-eaters after their deaths!)