haunted and confused.

C

cinza

Active Member
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Sep-13-01 AT 02:27PM (Est)[/font][p]

I have always taught my son that good and evil are subjective.

When he was little I was very careful to teach him skills to see around what might seem ugly into the beauty that is not obvious...
it wasnt an ugly dog... it was an interesting dog of unsual color or shape... the missing hair might be illness... maybe he suffers.

it wasnt a just a mean person, it was a person who given their experience had taken on certain defenses.. was relating to the world with limited information....

I live in a universtity town that was pretty much white when he was little and on the rare occassions we saw african students, i showed admiration for the beauty of black skin, interest in culture, I told him interesting things i knew about them, enjoyed the music of their accents....
I taught him being open to all people was enlightening, that we can learn more about us all as humans by learning about someone from a different place in the world.

My son is 17 now....he is very unsual in that he has does not make judgements against anyone and is known for cool headed perspective taking where ever he goes...He is a very solid and independent thinker and a quiet leader among his peers.

yesterday when he and I talked about the tragedy he offered me of the perspective of the terrorists who gave their lives in what they believed to be glorious and good deeds..their attempts to make a better world in the image they believed in.

He balked at the phrase "cowardly acts" ... these were not cowardly acts..

I agree..... these were not cowardly acts....they were very "great" acts from their perspective.

at the same time i am horrified, sick, confused, frustrated..
not only at the acts but that there is any perspective i have to deal with that allows perspective on the acts.

I was sitting out at a coffe shop this morning and started crying after calling my son and asking him to think about right and wrong in more definite terms.

I dont know how to deal with more than one perspective in such a case and i dont know how to teach my son to shut the gates on anyone else.....and i dont know how to make sure we stay safe...and ......

I tried yesterday to tell him that as civilized people we make agreements and laws not to harm each other so we can live in peace.
But these people are thinking of 'Alla' not themselves or of us.
and what they believe 'Alla' has asked of them.

Alla or no Alla, I wont defend their acts... but what of their human hearts?


I tried to tell him good and bad dont exist in the animal world
but that as humans we have to make agreements to live and let live which compromise our millions of years of instincts and relflexes....



I still dont believe in evil .... i believe in all humans having a heart the desire to love and make good ... i believe they are vulnerable to being horribly miguided by various influences.


But there must be a line of right and wrong..... that does not take any of that in consideration.
these acts are not allowable...no matter what these people believe.

I have to learn that
there are boundaries that sometimes we must hold up between ourselves and others ... even though i have never done so before.

I dont know exactly how to talk with my son and knock off some of the intellectualism i trained him to use in defense of all living perspectives.

i still believe in standing in someone elses shoes ..... and having compassion for all the various ways live evolves given the circumstances it evolves in.

at the same time i am feeling very nationalistic and patriotic due to the tragedy... i appreciate the flags waving....
NO ONE will get US down...
Get that you maniacs over there?
NO ONE....

I was born and raised in manhattan ....its home like no other place in the world... ...
and yet i fly off into the black sky over our planet and look down and want understanding for us all...
we are all part of the whole...
we are all part of Alla......
at least so i believe.....
but as my son points out...that is only one perspective.

i believe in believing....what ever it is, life is meaningless without believing.

I am haunted and confused..

how to take care of everybody.

I dont want any one to suffer, especially due to any ignorance on my part.

.......
ranting!!
 
You might tell your son to find out what he can about the Taliban. They are protecting Osama and his terrorists in Afghanistan, and he, in turn, has said that they are exemplary of true Islam. If this is so, then Muslim women are in trouble. They are treated mercilessly--stoned to death for minor infractions (e.g., not being fully hidden by their clothing), kept illiterate and as virtual slaves to their male relatives. It's horrifying--and not just to someone who does not share their religion. My Muslim women friends find the Taliban and its practices appalling and inhumane. These are not just misguided people. You might also tell him that a free and open society like our own is one that welcomes everyone. NYC is a city of immigrants--more than any other place on earth I believe. It is fearful and ironic that what is so exemplary of our virtues as a society is where these terrorists should strike.If they hate us for our virtues,if they take advantage of us precisely where we show those virtues,isn't that EVIL?
 
Dear Cinza,

The sorrow, confusion and ambivalence you feel are emotions that I too feel, as I'm sure all persons of conscience feel right now. And I think we will feel those emotions for a long time to come. Please, for your own sake and your family's, remember that it has only been 48 hours since this crisis erupted, and we are at the beginning of something life- and soul-changing.

It is because you have the compassion to try to stand in another's shoes that you are devastated by this tragedy. And it is because of the sheer magnitude of this tragedy, I believe, that your son is invoking intellectualism - the human soul protects itself by distancing itself emotionally from events it is not yet prepared to cope with. The emotional reality of this will probably evolve in stages, and your son and you are going to need each other even more at this continues. That you are able to talk about this now is enormous - it will be the power of human love and goodness in the home as well as out in the world outside, that will get all of us through this.

Please take care. If you'd like to communicate privately off the Forum, my e-mail address is: [email protected].

Annette
 
oh Lynda! i have been raving about the Taliban for a while...and indeed i do tell him my tolerance definately has no room for what these people do.....
They would kill a woman for making noise with her feet....

its unbelievable.
 
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Sep-13-01 AT 01:37PM (Est)[/font][p]thank you annette..

I think today is a day where sadness begins to take a grip....
first we had disblief and horror...reaction... reflexivness.

But today i feel sadness galvanizing....in sadness there is thinking ....

its probably an old pychological thing that instead of getting angry in my life i have broken down into sadness and frustration and tried to understand how things come to be rather than to blast out at them.

I decided to become a pyschologist when i was 13.... nothing has ever interested me more than understanding why humans do what they do......and who knows if i ever get it right.

sometimes we just have to draw lines ... be simple.
Not something i have been able to do... being simple would be like trying not to breathe... i would be gasping to know it all...
but its too much for this little mind to handle..
 
Cinza,

I remember clearly being thirteen years old and reading the diary of Anne Frank. I remember finding out who Adolph Hitler was and what he had done. It was the first time I realized those feelings which many of us are now feeling. How can an evil such as this exist? I still believe in the inherent goodness of mankind. I see it as I watch New Yorkers and fellow Americans respond to this horrific and unbelievable catastrohy! But I am not so naive as to think that this is an isolated incident. It's on a grander scale than ever before but it's potentialty has always existed. People do ugly things. Hatred is real and so is evil. I feel tremendous sorrow for the victims. There's a place in my heart which dreads the retribution which will be wreaked on other innocents. It's inevitable. We saw the people in the Middle East who celebrated this! Again I cried because hatred is ugly and violence begets violence! I weep for them also because they have little hope, they have no future and they are trapped in a cycle which seems to have no end. A palestinean mother can expect her child to die by violence. Until Tuesday, I would never have believed that this could happen here. I stand corrected. I am willing to relinquish certain liberties to ensure it can't again. My idealism is intact. But I also have a streak of realism running through me. If measures are not taken, this can and will happen again. I believe that all men are created equal, that all deserve life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. I live in a free society. Can we make all societies free? I also know there is a dark side to humanity. All I can do is be peace. I will love my neighbor as myself, including my Arab neighbor. I stand behind the government in the actions taken against terrorism and terrorists. I pray they will take care not to cause suffering to innocents in the name of retribution. The world must be made safe for Democracy but we must take care not to become terrorists except against terrorist. There is nothing to say to comfort any one. No one gave their life here. These lives were stolen. I will honor the memories of all these dear, tragic angels who have been torn form us! The pain will fade; our lives will go on but we will never be the same. Remember this. Be peace. Love. Tolerate. To kill this, we must love and hope and live peace. I am scared. I am sad. I feel shattered by the enormity of the death toll and yes, the death of our innocence. How can we ever laugh and be carefree again? Hug your child! Hold him and teach him love. And pray....
 
But also, Cinza, God Bless you for your idealism, purity and obvious love and tolerance. These things will prevail! We will teach them to our children and pray that ALL children learn them!

Bobbi
 
Anne Frank.

you gave me a good reminder....
Anne Franks diary is one of the most significant writings i know of.
I try to get all young people to read that book while young...and hope they will read it again when they are older.

its incomprehensible...

after hilter there was quite a bit of psyche research on the question of how people willingly became part of that.

if you do read these studies you will be horrified to see we all are set up pychologicaly and biologicaly to do things we swear we wouldnt . Horrible things.

its not just a matter "them"
99% of us in the same situations would be just like them...
 
RE: Anne Frank.

Have you read Thich Nhat Hanh? He's a Vietnamese Buddhist monk and a true proponent of peace, a beautiful soul. He's an eloquent writer and I have found comfort reading his books the last few days. I have had a hard time concentrating and getting through my routine. My heart is heavy and just when I think I have a handle on things and can pick up where I left off, the horror washes over me again and I know I will never be the same. I know we are all feeling these things and I do take comfort in that. I hope you can find comfort too!

Bobbi
 
RE: William Faulkner

"I believe that man will not merely endure: he will prevail. He is immortal, not because he among creatures has an inexhaustible voice, but because he has a soul, a spirit capable of compassion and sacrifice and endurance." William Faulkner

A terrorist might hijack a plane, destroy a monument to Western Society and commerce; he might kill and maim and shatter lives, he may break our hearts and damage our ideals but he cannot destroy the spirit that Faulner evoked in his acceptance speech for the Nobel Peace Prize in 1949 and that is why, in the end, he loses.
 
RE: William Faulkner

Thank you.

I am a Faulkner fan.... as a matter of fact i consider him on the top of my list of writers for and intelligence and content and passion....The Sound and the Fury just knocked me off my feet when i first read it.... it had the power of a slow moving ocean wave.

I am not a teacher!
a pyschologist by education but i work in engineering.
c
 
Cinza--You sound like a wonderful mom to me. You raised your child to be a tolerant, open minded person. There is never anything wrong in teaching love and understanding. Your son's young still and to me, it doesn't sound as if he's empathizing w/the terrorists. Maybe, in his own way, he's trying to come to terms w/this horrible tragedy. Because his soul is good, he can't understand how others might be infected w/evil. He might not be able to see that some people--for whatever reason--are poisoned with hate or misguided by ignorance. The people who planned and perpetrated this horrendous act were not sane individuals. They must have been sociopaths. I don't want to understand how anyone could justify killing thousands of innocent people, especially when there was no obvious reason like a war or an act of aggression by our nation. How could another human being intentionally ensure that so many people spent their last moments on earth in absolute terror. It was an utterly selfish, hateful act, and without reason. It went against the basic tenets of Islam, a religion which values life. I worry for Arab/Americans and the inevitable backlash of racism that will result from this (I've heard it already, at work & on the media). These terrorists were anomolies--sick ones, at that. Don't be hard on yourself, Cinza. You have a good heart and I find you an inspiration. This is going to be a hard time for all Americans, and I fear we are going to be in for a long, difficult period in our history. Stay strong and try to remember that good will prevail. Suzanne
 
Cinza,

Your son has learned the lessons you have taught him. He's part of the movement which will change these things, when love and tolerance prevail!
 
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Sep-17-01 AT 06:30AM (Est)[/font][p]Text deleted by LCC, since I couldn't decide if it was appropriate or not.

I don't know how kids can cope with this, when all the coping skills we have acquired as adults are so inadequate.

But, Cinza, it sounds like you've given your son a great background for thinking these things through.

Peace!

Laura
 
Islam backlash

Suzanne,
I'm also concerned that the evil acts of a small group will turn into an excuse for hate crimes against anyone of mid-Eastern descent. The US is zenophobic already, but this make make it more so. The day after the tragedy, a local radio station had a minister on to give words of comfort to listeners--I have no problem with that. But then, the conversation degraded into ignorance and intolerance. The announcer made some statement about "these religious zealots who don't have a god like ours" (of course, he meant God with a capital G--suggesting that Allah , Krisna, any other deity was not a god). Then the announcer and the minister began to tallk about how this might be an opportunity for we Americans to bring enlightenment to these people (ie: convert them to christianity)!
 
RE: Islam backlash

Hi cinza,

I have a question for you. A hospital in my city had several middle eastern nurses who were cheering when they saw the plane hit the second Tower on television... they were fired later that day. Should they have been?

Joyce
 
RE: Islam backlash

I think so. I understand this is a difficult situation but according to the Koran, the death of an innocent is a terrible wrong. Some radical Muslims have twisted their religios thology to suit their purposes. Bin Laden is angry that during Desert Storm our troops were present around their holy sites, Mecca, dishonoring them. The Middle East possess tremedous wealth, yet the people are very impoverished. We were invited there,of course, and we have oil interests we wanted to protect. We should not tolerate terrorism the celebrating something so horrific as what occured Tuesday. They were quite stupid and insensitive to react openly that way. They are ignorant. We can only set a good example, be tolerant and pray.
 
Good thing to think about.

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Sep-17-01 AT 04:34PM (Est)[/font][p]it hits me in the gut to think that anyone had to witness the nurses cheering.....

its a very sad world.

should they have been fired?

I want to say yes!

but i dont know what the laws are and how they could be applied in such a case...

these nurses were disrupting the wellbeing of co workers and patients .... undermining the healing environment.. undermining the confidence of patients in their care?

I imagine that can be legally defended...


But it occurs to me to consider in an aside:


One of our freedoms that we guard above all else in this country is:
"freedom of speech"

I dont understand.
how could these nurses face anyone in that hospital? Did they hate everyone all the time and work there?
It would have been graceful of them to quit on their own.


The first step to wisdom is to know that 'you dont know'...
The second step to wisdom is to know 'what' you dont know..
The third step is to know what you 'do' know.

I find it simplest to admit i dont know a lot and .....

And i do not subscribe to ignorance or hate...

Einstein said:
when people disagree, its because they dont have the same information.

THIS makes sense to me....If we all knew the same things we would understand each other...
 
RE: Islam backlash

Okay, my religious backgroud is fighting to get out. I'll keep it brief.

There is a story in the Bible about Joseph. His brothers were jealous of him because he was daddy's favorite and sold him into slavery. After many years and many hardships, Joseph found himself as a ruler in Egypt. He got inside information from above that a famine was coming and Joseph encouraged the King to let him save up food during the times of abundance. Joseph did save up food.

Joseph's family began to starve and came to Egypt because they heard there was food there. Joseph was able to feed his brothers, reacquaint himself with his family, and become a rich and powerful ruler. Joseph had no ill feelings toward his brothers. He forgave them and welcomed them into his home. None of these good things would have happened to Joseph if the evil thing hadn't happened first.

The moral to the story is: GOD CAN TAKE WHAT WAS MEANT FOR EVIL AND TURN IT AROUND AND USE IT FOR SOMETHING GOOD. It may take a while, because God's timetable usually doesn't match our timetable. But something good will come from this tragedy, count on it!
 
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