Had to hire a dog behaviorist.

[janie1234]

Sorry janie1234 hope at least you understand that there are as many opinions on this subject as the day is long.

Linda don't be sorry. I wanted to hear every opinion and I'm open and willing to hear yours. I appreciate that you chimed in. Like you said there are a million and one different opinions on the matter so much so that it makes my hair want to fall out. I read one thing and the next thing I read says something different. What I have realized is that every dog is different and requires training specific to that dog and breed. I have to go with that or I'll drive myself mad trying to follow all the different advice that I hear.

 

[fitg]

Gayle: Watching the dogs point is so cool. My husband is in the fishing/guide industry and has taken men hunting who misuse the shock collars with their dogs. It is absolutely disgusting behavior. With Beagles....we just could not take it anymore. They like to roam and there have been many times we have lost them, but always gotten them back. After the loss of Katie, we were done.

112toGuru: Thank you so much for disagreeing with me in such a nice way. I was worried about posting my opinion because I did not want anyone lashing out at me. I totally respect your feelings.

Janie1234: Good luck to you with your new companion. Yes, be consistent. I am a teacher, and have been for a long time, so it is ingrained in me. It is actually how my daily life functions. I have sat in a tree stand with my husband when he was hunting deer. He didn't bring his gun, we just sat up there, waiting to see them. It was really cold, windy and I don't like heights, but it was neat to sit up there and be really quiet and just watch the woods. It does require a lot of patience. Laughing about your daughter! Yes, we have great dogs. We are always getting comments about how well behaved and beautiful they are. We attribute it to just caring about them and treating them well. Best wishes with the training. It is so hard.

 

[lrayburn]

Janie,
I'm sorry to hear you are having a difficult time with Georgie. I am glad to hear that you are working with someone in person who can see the interaction and help you. You know that I am not a fan of Cesar Milan or choke collars (and certainly not e-collars). That said, if you worked with the man and are comfortable with him, the techniques and are making progress, then you need to do what you are comfortable with. I am sure that your judgement is good enough that if you weren't comfortable, you would get a different trainer. If you are still wondering, by all means try another trainer who uses more positive techniques and compare Georgie's and your response. If you put 5 dog trainers in a room, the only guarantee is that you will get 5 opionions.

Remember that different techniques are appropriate for different dogs. I always start with the most positive technique that I can but I'm not afraid to change my technique based on what the dog needs. There are some dogs I would never tolerate the use of Cesar-style techniques on and there are other dogs that tolerate them quite well. Different breeds have different temperments and individuals have temperments all their own. You need to meet the needs of the individual.

People on the street will give you dirty looks for using a choke collar, a prong collar, letting your dog jump, not letting your dog jump and everything else so don't worry about that. (I'll admit to giving people dirty looks when they are using a Gentle Leader incorrectly or when it isn't fitted right.)

Feel free to pm me if you want to talk more. Let us know how things go.
Lisa

 

[lrayburn]

Gayle and Lisa (lrayburn) I hope you see this.
So the behaviorist gets here and in 5 minutes and with one bloody scratch he calms Georgie down to the point where he is yawning on the floor laying down like the perfect gentlemen. He was just like Cesar Milan and the Dog Whisperer.

Janie,
I am worried about two things though. Yawning is a calming signal. Essentially, yawning did not indicate that Georgie was relaxed instead it is his was of trying to appease the trainer.

What sort of training or certification does this trainer have? Please remember that there are very few certified animal behaviorists in the country. If he is calling himself a behaviorist, I would want to know what his credentials are. A behaviorist should have a higher level of training than a dog trainer does. There are several certifications for trainers - APDT is one, CCPDT is another. Certification is not necessary, but I would want to know what his background is.

If you can find an APDT or CCPDT in your area, you might want to visit them and see if you prefer their techniques. You may also want to consider taking a group class using more positive techniques.
Lisa

 

[hiitdogs]

I would think there is a lot of different opinions, and practices, I read a lot, from a lot of different sources, through all of it, the basic message I found that made the most sense to me is, the domesticated dog is not a pack animal, there is no reason for me to believe that dominance understanding or behavior crosses species in that way, in fact the reverse seems more true, the fact that humans are intellectually more advanced, allows us to domesticate the dog, horse, etc.

Fundamentally I agree many dogs were bred to be working dogs, when I go to the SPCA, I couldn't tell the difference, most looked like abandoned pets to me, the large majority anyway. If your pet has the opportunities to use his particular abilites that's great! I don't really think that correlates with the general "pack" type message for pet owners.

As I said, my opinion, based on my experience, interactions, & reading

Linda
Pack to me is not a term for a domesticated, tame animal.

Sorry janie1234 hope at least you understand that there are as many opinions on this subject as the day is long.

If you think that dogs are not pack animals then just watch dogs in a group. I have 5 "domesticated", tame Mini Aussies and there clearly is pack behavior if I let them loose at the dog park or other off leash area. One dog alerts, the others come as a back up, one chases, the others follow ...... There clearly is one leader and the rest are followers. The pack behavior may not be noticable if you have 2 dogs but I can assure you that if you have 4+ dogs there is very clear pack behavior. It's not something that you can breed out of a dog by domesticating, it's their instinct. It's just that most people don't have a pack of several dogs.

Janie, I think a choke collar is okay if used properly and since you have dog behaviorist working with you I think it is fine. I am glad you looked for professional help when you felt that things were getting out of hand.

I don't like shock collars and would never use them but if it is the only thing that works to keep a dog from getting harmed and it is only used in emergencies, I guess.

 

[Sunshine1528]

I took my quite shy giant schnauzer to group training to socialize her and at nearly 100 lbs. it took a while to get her used to people and other dogs. The class required choke collars but only during training.

It worked well for her and after a few weeks she was fine without the choke collar. Just the quick pull gets their attention but does not really hurt them if done correctly. It was so nice to be able to walk both the and our lab (previously trained with a choke collar). They did very well with just a tight lead and their regular collars after only a month or so.

With large dogs I always felt it necessary so as my kids got older they could walk the dogs without issue. We were even able to let them out in the yard and they would not move when people would walk by. We do live in a very quiet neighborhood and many days when they'd be out while we were doing yardwork or washing the cars not even one person would walk by for hours. Had we been on a busier street I would not take the chance.

Best of luck - as others have said, your instinct on what is working and what isn't is what you need to go on. TG you realize you need to be able to control a large dog who could really hurt a person or another dog or animal if not trained. Good for you !

 

[112toGuru]

Janie1234

I thought although I gave you an opinion, you may want a specific source to help you decide what's right for you, or at least to understand some of the terms & techniques different trainers use.

The book "Don't Shoot the Dog" by Karen Pryor does a better than fair job of explaining specifically what positive & negative reinforcement, punishment, are and how they are used, a site I found particularly helpful is Dog Star Daily,( Dr. Ian Dunbar founder of APDT), one other Dr. Sophie Yin (author "How to Behave so Your Dog Behaves") I haven't read the latter, but I have read about her, visited her site.

Things to think about, Is your dog healthy? have the Vet give you a general check up (maybe the behaviorist's already said this?) & Is your dog happy?

I look at the whole training, relationship as a cooperation between man & dog, not one of dominance over. I guess that's why I disagree with some methods vs. others, you'll know what's right for you.

Linda