Educated crowd...need your input, please!

[jloewe]

Why is it that I can lift fairly heavy on most exercises, but when it comes to the overhead shoulder presses, I can't go more than 5 lbs per side without losing form??

 

[Aquajock]

Why is it that I can lift fairly heavy on most exercises, but when it comes to the overhead shoulder presses, I can't go more than 5 lbs per side without losing form??

I'm no expert, but I've often thought my own difficulty with overhead presses is the fact that you are executing a fairly big range of motion simply getting the dumbbells or barbell into position, from under the shoulder joint to overhead, recruiting many assisters along the way. Also, overhead presses recruit not only the shoulder muscles but also the triceps in a fairly different way. Without knowing what your current weight loads are for other muscle groups it's a bit difficult to state what goal weight you can safely build to, but those are my thoughts.

I'd be interested in the answers from some certified PFTs here on the forums to this question myself.

A-Jock

 

[bethj]

I think because you really don't use those muscles much in everyday life. I almost never have to lift anything overhead.
Beth

 

[jonahnah]

Perhaps your core and lower back muscles need some strengthening since you really rely on them to keep good form during O/H presses? Do you do presses with feet side by side (hip distance apart) or one slightly in front (still hip distance apart). Cathe demonstrates both and some people find one position easier than other in terms of maintaining their form.

I recall you having some lower back issues, Jerry, do you have some limitations there still?

 

[Jaffas]

Overhead presses are one of the hardest exercises for me too. It wasn't until STS that I could go any heavier than 8's. The last time I did them I used 12's but could only squeeze out 8 reps. I agree with the theory that it just no a movement the we do much in normal modern day life.

 

[Lynn M.]

Hi-

If you want to increase your weight load for overhead shoulder presses, try sitting in a chair with a back for the exercise. This helps to stabilize your body so that you can focus more on the delt heads and will also help you to not use your back for the exercise.

Also, I've noticed that in some of Cathe's older workouts that when she does these, she lowers her elbows past 90 degrees when she brings the weight down. I've heard from a couple of PT's that this is not correct form and can lead to injury.. So, I would suggest only going down to 90 degrees ( think goal post w/ your elbows) and no more.

Hope that helps, Lynn M.

 

[jloewe]

Thanks, everyone...

I was really hoping for answers like these..beats the alternative of me thinking I'm a 250+ pound weakling...

I will definitely try to go a slight bit heavier and use the chair back next go around!!

 

[Davidj]

Any useful advice on increasing overhead strength?

Thank you jloewe for asking this question -- about overhead presses -- that I have been to afraid to ask on my own. I too have difficult problems doing any overhead presess (with dbs or bbs). Also I have problems with overhead triceps extensions. With older Cathe tapes, I simply used very ligiht dbs or bodybars. But having gone through the process of caculating 1RMs for STS, I now know I have problems.

Thanks Lynee M. for your advice, which I will follow. Also, I think I will devote 20 minutes everyday just concentrating on overhead presses. Any tips on a good program focussing on overheads, to do every day?

Anyone else (PTs or others) have other concrete suggestions?
-- David

 

[Gayle]

Perhaps your core and lower back muscles need some strengthening since you really rely on them to keep good form during O/H presses? Do you do presses with feet side by side (hip distance apart) or one slightly in front (still hip distance apart). Cathe demonstrates both and some people find one position easier than other in terms of maintaining their form.

I recall you having some lower back issues, Jerry, do you have some limitations there still?

I was going to mention core weakness as a potential reason...abs AND back. Pushing a load overhead with good form works requires LOTS of core work. Personally, I think overhead presses are a much better core exercise than crunches.

 

[Fitnessfreakk366]

I am no PT but I'll give my 2 cents.

It has taken me FOREVER to get my overhead presses where they are now. My highest weights on this exercise has been 32# dumbbells in each hand. When I first started working out with Cathe I could barely use 10's but that is because her overhead presses have so many reps in most all her workouts. Our upper shoulder muscles can't handle endurance type training too well. The lactid acid buildup is created almost instantly and that makes it hard to do high reps with this exercise.

To gain strength in this area (which is my weakest area) I slowly upped my weights but kept the rep range down at 6-8. I lifted as heavy as I could to reach 6 reps. I'd do 3 sets of these once a week until my strength got better and better. And it did. When I got to 25's I was astounded. I never thought I'd be able to lift that heavy with this exercise. Then when I got to 30's I was truly happy with my gains. I've only used 32's on one occasion and currently I'm back down to 25's because I've been doing more high rep work for summer.

The strength gains will come, just keep upping the weights. Even if you use - say 15's - and can only do 3 reps. So be it. Next week do 15's again but try to get to 4 or 5 reps. THIS WILL BUILD STRENGTH.

Barbell presses are easier for me because I can stabilize my core better. This morning I used a 55# barbell and did 3 sets of 8 reps. Next week I will up the weights to 57#. I'll increase each week until I get to my goal.

Hope this helps!

 

[LauraMax]

Hi-

If you want to increase your weight load for overhead shoulder presses, try sitting in a chair with a back for the exercise. This helps to stabilize your body so that you can focus more on the delt heads and will also help you to not use your back for the exercise.

Also, I've noticed that in some of Cathe's older workouts that when she does these, she lowers her elbows past 90 degrees when she brings the weight down. I've heard from a couple of PT's that this is not correct form and can lead to injury.. So, I would suggest only going down to 90 degrees ( think goal post w/ your elbows) and no more.

Hope that helps, Lynn M.

Excellent advice on all counts. Lower back support really helps w/heavier weights. It also helps prevent your back from arching & therefore bad form. I also agree about the 90 degree thing--I usually have something like a "U" shape at the bottom of the range of motion.

I also agree about trying a barbell first just to increase strength, then move into the DBs.

 

[Davidj]

How often should one pyramid shoulder work?

I appreciate the comments so far on jloewe's question on strenthening shoulders, for overhead lifts. After reading the discussion this morning, I made it a resolution to strengthen my shoulders by doing extra work after my regular exercize routine.

My question is this. FitnessFreak (and LauraMax) gave some useful advise as to pyramiding weights, and uising barbells instead of dumbells. My question is: should one limit the work to once a week, or should the special work be done more frequently? THis morning, I was thinking of exercising shoulder presses every day. Is that too often? Reading FitnessFreak's post, one would think every day work is too often.
-- David

 

[LauraMax]

Yes, you're supposed to give your muscles at least 48 hour rest to allow for the fibers to repair before working a muscle again. David, do you go to a gym or train at home? I work my weaker BPs 2X a week--i.e. I have decent front & side delt development, but my rear delts weren't looking so good so I throw in an extra 6 sets of rear delt work w/my chest routine, but they're different exercises than the ones I do w/my normal shoulder routine. I lift at a gym so I have all kinds of options when I want to mix it up a little.

Personally, I think 2X a week is ideal, & no more than 3X a week w/the 48 hour rests.

 

[Davidj]

Thanks, I'll try pyramiding, with two Cathe tapes first...

LauraMax, thanks for the quick reply.

I'll try 2x a week, with pyramids for overhead shoulder presses, at the end of my regular workouts.

I have two old Cathe tapes, "Pyramid Upper Body" and "Show and Heavy: Legs and Shoulders". My foggy memory recollects that the S&H tape does not have overhead presses, but the pyramid tape does. I'll experiment with these two tapes first. I will also try pryamiding on my own, doing say two pyramid sets per session. I'll also expreiment with doing only a few reps, as FitnessFreak suggests above. This has been a very helpful thread.
-- David

 

[kathryn]

One thing that might be a problem is flexibility/mobility in the shoulder joint.

I think Steve Maxwell's Joint Mobility drills are fabulous for working on..well, joint mobility! Which is maybe even more important that flexibilty, because it's flexibility in motion through a full range of motion, kind of like 'flexible strength'.

I don't use his workouts as much as I think I should, but one time when my neck and shoulders felt really tense and 'jammed up,' they really helped me, and I was using them (the shoulder ones in particular) before my workouts as a warm-up (and my post is reminding me that that was a good thing to do, especially since I just started STS, and the shoulder work could be intense).

 

[Davidj]

My overhead shoulder plan (remedial work)

I appreciate this thread, so much so that I started today on a twice a week spot training program, for the summer, using some of the advice on this thread. Here it is. I am lifting with such light poundage, I am too shy to report it in this post.

1. Warm up: Use Cathe's S&H Legs and Shoulders, just the seated overhead shoulder press part. This segment has two 8x sets of 8-slow counts. After today's session, I belatedly discovered in my shelf Cathe's S&H Triceps and Biceps video. I plan to add the first segment of this video, shoulder overhead extensions (2-arms using one dumbell). This has I think the same 8-rep, 8-count format as other S&H routines.

2. Pyramid sets with a barbell (in my case using a modified bodybar). I lifted to failure using graudated, increasing weights, then back down again. The reps were as follows: 11x , 8x , 6x , 5x, 1x, 5x, 6x, 7x, 8x . As you can see, in going back down again, the reps because fewer.

This session lasted about 16 minutes, so I did it after doing 30 minutes of easy step aerobics. Adding on Cathe's S&H's shoulder overhead extensions would increase the 16 minutes shoulder work to about 20 minutes.

How does the 20-minute session sound as a twice-a-week plan, over the summer, to increase over-the-head shoulder strength? I take to heart FitnessFreak's comments, to increase the poundage as I progress this summer. Any comments would be appreciated.
-- David

 

[Fitnessfreakk366]

I appreciate this thread, so much so that I started today on a twice a week spot training program, for the summer, using some of the advice on this thread. Here it is. I am lifting with such light poundage, I am too shy to report it in this post.

1. Warm up: Use Cathe's S&H Legs and Shoulders, just the seated overhead shoulder press part. This segment has two 8x sets of 8-slow counts. After today's session, I belatedly discovered in my shelf Cathe's S&H Triceps and Biceps video. I plan to add the first segment of this video, shoulder overhead extensions (2-arms using one dumbell). This has I think the same 8-rep, 8-count format as other S&H routines.

2. Pyramid sets with a barbell (in my case using a modified bodybar). I lifted to failure using graudated, increasing weights, then back down again. The reps were as follows: 11x , 8x , 6x , 5x, 1x, 5x, 6x, 7x, 8x . As you can see, in going back down again, the reps because fewer.

This session lasted about 16 minutes, so I did it after doing 30 minutes of easy step aerobics. Adding on Cathe's S&H's shoulder overhead extensions would increase the 16 minutes shoulder work to about 20 minutes.

How does the 20-minute session sound as a twice-a-week plan, over the summer, to increase over-the-head shoulder strength? I take to heart FitnessFreak's comments, to increase the poundage as I progress this summer. Any comments would be appreciated.
-- David

I think using S&H is an EXCELLENT way to build strength for the overhead presses. Don't get discouraged with your poundage on this. Because of the rep count, it is VERY difficult to go real heavy with this.

This is what I did, and just so you know, I workout freestyle:

I started out doing overhead presses using 12's. Could get about 10-12 reps (normal 2/2 count) with 3 sets. I rested about 1 - 1.5 minutes between each set. Rest time is imperative to strength gain. When I started increasing the weight doing this, I would go to 15's and do as many reps as I could (average about 10 reps) and rested about 1 - 1.5 minutes between sets.

When I moved up to 20's I would rest for about 2 minutes. Rep count was about 8-10. Then I moved up to 22's - rep count about 8, rest about 2 minutes. Moved up to 25's and here I only went as high with the reps as I could, usually around 5-6 reps. Rested about 2 minutes. etc. I finally hit 32's and could do this for 6 reps. It took me a few months to get there, though.

All I did was add this exercise with my shoulder rotation once a week. It worked for me. I gave my shoulders plenty of rest between my next workout.

Using the pyramid style of training is more to focus on endurance, not strength. What is the rest time you are using with the pyramids? And I think working this exercise for 20 minutes is way too long. Hit it hard, get in, get out. Less is best for strength.

I say stick with S&H, but just don't get discouraged when you can't lift real heavy with this because of the slow count. 2/2 count is better for increasing weight.

Here is a good format to follow for shoulder once a week:

Overhead Dumbbell Press (ALWAYS do this exercise first) - 3 sets/8 reps until you get real heavy, then 3 sets/6 reps
Upright Rows - 3 sets/10 reps
Lateral Raise - 3 sets/12 reps
Bent Over Lateral Raise - 3 sets/12 reps

Then you can add in some shrugs as well.

Hope this helps!

 

[gettingfitmom]

I am no PT but I'll give my 2 cents.

It has taken me FOREVER to get my overhead presses where they are now. My highest weights on this exercise has been 32# dumbbells in each hand. When I first started working out with Cathe I could barely use 10's but that is because her overhead presses have so many reps in most all her workouts. Our upper shoulder muscles can't handle endurance type training too well. The lactid acid buildup is created almost instantly and that makes it hard to do high reps with this exercise.

To gain strength in this area (which is my weakest area) I slowly upped my weights but kept the rep range down at 6-8. I lifted as heavy as I could to reach 6 reps. I'd do 3 sets of these once a week until my strength got better and better. And it did. When I got to 25's I was astounded. I never thought I'd be able to lift that heavy with this exercise. Then when I got to 30's I was truly happy with my gains. I've only used 32's on one occasion and currently I'm back down to 25's because I've been doing more high rep work for summer.

The strength gains will come, just keep upping the weights. Even if you use - say 15's - and can only do 3 reps. So be it. Next week do 15's again but try to get to 4 or 5 reps. THIS WILL BUILD STRENGTH.

Barbell presses are easier for me because I can stabilize my core better. This morning I used a 55# barbell and did 3 sets of 8 reps. Next week I will up the weights to 57#. I'll increase each week until I get to my goal.

Hope this helps!

WOW! I am bowing to you right now!!! 32 pounds????? I can barely squeak out 12 reps w/ 15 lbs. I would love to get to 20 lbs., I think I'll try what you did, increase weight w/ fewer reps.