Does it start with us?

>The book sounds intriguing and now I want to read it. But let
>me ask you something. I seem to have a major worry-wart
>personality. When I read books that suggest that the "whole
>system" is all screwed up I have a tendency to feel helpless
>and get upset. I love new information, but only if there's a
>clear-cut way to incorporate it into my life. From your
>description, it sounds like this book describes a global
>problem. Of those who read this book or who are reading it,
>did you find the book more motivating or more depressing?

Nancy,
It's a compelling book based on numerous investigations on the rationale for a plant-based diet to reduce your risk of cancer, heart disease, diabetes and obesity. I would definitely classify it as motivating and informative. I am really thankful to Carol for recommending it to me, it has changed the way I eat. Even if you don't agree with all of it, you can't walk away without learning something from it or incorporating some of it into your life.

Robin:9
 
Exactly. So here's my question. WE all know that cholesterol is a product created by the liver of animals - and I would bet that all doctors know that too (ok - I hope they do!)

So when my MIL goes to her doc and he tells her that her cholesterol is way too high, why doesn't he explain that her liver produces its own but that ALL of the dietary cholesterol she gets ONLY comes from animal based foods?

It seems to me that that should be an option, with him then saying "I'm not a dietician, but if you want to cut back on your cholesterol, you may want to consider changing your diet, and I can refer you to a dietician who can hlp you with those issues. Or, I can write you a script for Lipator. It's your choice."

My point is that if THAT kind of information were given, then yes, I agree that ultimately she's responsible for her own health and decisions. But it amazes me that when we were talking about cholesterol, she had NO IDEA that the dietary stuff only came from animal foods. Her doc ONLY gave her the choice (as if there was a choice at all) of the drug. Isn't that where the interaction of the pharmaceuticals with the docs comes into play? Could there be preventative discussions with patients that are based on things completely within our control and not an automatic resort to the drug (when curiously, the drug rep bought catered lunch for the doc's office just the day before.) Do you see what I'm saying?

Lorrie
 
I think it definitely starts with us, especially since it's so based on our individual food choices.

The more we demand healthy, whole foods, the more there will be available.

Unfortunately, I know from experience that we are a small minority, at least in my town! The local grocery store started stocking an organic produce section a few months ago, and it has dwindled substatially, with foods often moldy or going bad (because I'm probably one of the only people who consciously looks for organics).

You are actually doing some good pro-active work yourself, Lorrie, by recommending the book to others and helping them get educated.

It's a rough row to how to get a society that is economically and philosophically based on the "take care of the symptoms" approach to health care (which should more rightly be called "sick care") to think more in terms of prevention. Too many people buy into the "take a pill to alleviate the symptoms, but don't change the lifestyle that caused them" approach. Let's face it, "the masses" aren't particularly interested or educated in terms of preventatve health care, or in realizing that THEY are responsible for their own health, AND can do SO MUCH about it!

Isn't THAT a powerful thought? By the lifestyle you choose, YOU can reduce your risk of many diseases that plague us today!
 
>I am hoping that more vegetarians will bring about more
>vegetarian options in restaurants and more organic options in
>the grocery store.

I think that is happening, at least in larger towns. Restaurant owners realize that the sole vegetarian in a group of friends who are eating out may be the deciding factor in where they eat, and if no veggie option is available, they might all take their business elsewhere (there's a specific marketing term I've seen used for this "deciding factor" thing, but I can't remember it).

I've already seen more organic foods (canned and bottled, especially) available in stores. What I don't like, is that they are big conglomerates, that have never been interested in organics in the past, and are only doing it for the money. I prefer to give my money to companies that are philosophically and environmentally commited to organics, and have been long before the big companies jumped on the (albeit small!) bandwagon).
 
> WE know
>that because I think we are more educated than the average
>bear in terms of diet, nutrition, and health. We pay more
>attention to those issues. It may be common knowledge for us,
>but I really don't think that most people know that their
>doctors have limited education in diet and nutrition.

I agree!
I think many of us have done more "research" in the area of nutrition than most allopathic doctors (chiropractos, acupuncturists and naturopaths, especially, have a LOT more knowledge in that area that most MD's--who only have one or two nutrition classes during their course of study).

I've heard people say the most naïve things about nutrition, like someone worrying about the cholesterol in almonds: duh--no plant product contains cholesterol...but not really "duh" except from the perspective of someone who is self-educated in nutrition. I certainly didn't learn my nutrition stuff in school! It took my reading many, many, many books by many different people to get my info. I would venture to say that many Americans don't read anything they don't have to! And food manufacturers definitely take advantage of the small bits of knowledge that are disseminated to the masses, by focusing on buzz words--label a product "low carb" --even if it's full of saturated fat, and the public buys it. Label something "natural" --like the new Skippy PB that contains SUGAR and PALM KERNEL OIL--and people don't even look at the list of ingredients and snap it up without thinking.
 
>>It would be interesting to know what every forum member here
>ate for breakfast this morning. I think you would be very
>surprised that most people here are eating sugar and refined
>carbs for breakfast. IF they're eating breakfast at all.
>What are they eating for their coffee breaks at work?
>

Amy's Brown Rice Bowl (it has tofu, broccoli and onions), 3 slices of Toasted French Meadow's Flax and Sunflower Seed Bread with Spinach and Roasted Tomato Hommus and a super large salad made of romaine lettuce, sweet cherry peppers, tomatoes, black olives (olive juice and garlic salt is the dressing).....and coffee. I'm a big eater and my stomach doesn't care what time it is... it eats what it wants whatever the time. Oink. I love breakfast:)

Robin:9
 
> I think it starts with us when it comes to us living our own
>personal best life. We don't necessarily have to be out
>lecturing to the public about the importance of health and
>fitness but we can set an example at home and with the kids in
>our lives. Sadly though, the desire to change has to come from
>within and I just think alot of adults aren't interested. I
>truly cannot believe that in this day and age people are not
>aware of the basic "eat right and get more exercise"
>philosophy, yet millions of adults don't do either of those
>things. I can't count the number of times I have had people
>ask me about F/H. "What do you do?" is generally the first
>question. My answer, "I try to eat right and get plenty of
>exercise." This is not as sexy an answer as "Well, there's
>this *great* magic pill," so there generally aren't any
>follow-up questions. The responses are usually, "that's too
>hard," or "I don't have time." Shrug. I've given up trying
>to influence (adult) minds about it. As Master Yoda said, "Do
>or do not do. There is no try." :p

Agreed, again!

When I think about this, I can actually get frustrated and angry about people who do nothing to improve or even maintain their health, then have to have a costly triple bipass or be on expensive meds for the rest of their lives, because it does affect the rest of us as well, in insurance costs, in using and diverting resources that could be put to another use.
 
It's kind of funny, because a couple of weeks ago, the book "Natural Cures They don't Want You to Know About" was discussed and quickly dismissed by many people on this forum. But as someone who has read the book and benefitted from it, I can tell you that much of the information presented is almost identical to this "China Study" book y'all are talking about. I would encourage you to take a second look at Kevin Trudeau's book. I know the point was brought up that he was a convicted felon, and yes it's very tempting to dismiss him because of it. But it's not like the book is about teaching us how to commit credit card fraud. He has become a consumer advocate, committed to exposing the lies and deception that occur within the pharmaceutical, medical, and food industries...and how they tie in with our government as well. It is truly an eye opener, and I for one have changed my health and purchasing habits because of the information I got from the "Natural Cures" book. If you like the "China Study" book, you might want to also look at "Natural Cures". JMHO :7 Pam
 
>So when my MIL goes to her doc and he tells her that her
>cholesterol is way too high, why doesn't he explain that her
>liver produces its own but that ALL of the dietary cholesterol
>she gets ONLY comes from animal based foods?

And that's such a simple concept to understand: animals = cholesterol. And since WE are animals, we make all that we need and don't need anbody else's.

But, I would bet, if we all went out right now and did a survey, asking people to choose from a list what foods contain cholesterol, the vast majority would get it wrong. Probably choosing any foods with fat in (like my 'almonds" woman in my previous post) or junk foods.

There are a lot of advertising bucks involved in and a lot of people with a vested interest in having people continue to consume animal products (much of the "educational" information in grade schools is furnished by the industry) that most MD's would not think of recommending decreasing their consumption. Or they would say something like "eat chicken" (not knowing that chicken breast, for example, has about the same amount of cholesterol as beef!).


>It seems to me that that should be an option, with him then
>saying "I'm not a dietician, but if you want to cut back on
>your cholesterol, you may want to consider changing your diet,
>and I can refer you to a dietician who can hlp you with those
>issues. Or, I can write you a script for Lipator. It's your
>choice."

I may be overly pessimistic, but I think the vast majority would choose the pill. We're just so into that mind set of "pills and surgery and taking care of symptoms."

I was at a potluck dinner a while ago with a former secretary from our department (along with many other dept. peeps). She has been overweight and out of shape for a long time (and always saying she'd do "anything" to lose weight---but from observing her, that "anything" didn't include any lifestyle change, just whatever pill or diet drink she could take---she was abou to take phen-fen before it was pulled from the market). Now, she has full-blow diabetes.

When desert came around, she took a huge slice of sugary, lardy , refined white flour bakery cake. A former collegue (German, and not one to mince words) asked her how she could eat that with her diabetes. She said "I took my pill." So she can continue with the behaviors that lead to or at least promoted her diabetes, because she can take a pill!


>>Could there be preventative discussions
>with patients that are based on things completely within our
>control and not an automatic resort to the drug (when
>curiously, the drug rep bought catered lunch for the doc's
>office just the day before.) Do you see what I'm saying?

Allopathic medecine is very focused on medication and surgery and in dealing with symptoms. That's what most doctors are taught and what they are proficient at. (I go to an osteopath who is supposedly focused on preventative medecine, but I see her once or twice a year, whereas I see my acupuncturist/chiropractor regularly).

Also, preventative discussion might take more than the average of 5 minutes or so that most doctors spend with patients.
 
>Amy's Brown Rice Bowl (it has tofu, broccoli and onions), 3
>slices of Toasted French Meadow's Flax and Sunflower Seed
>Bread with Spinach and Roasted Tomato Hommus and a super large
>salad made of romaine lettuce, sweet cherry peppers, tomatoes,
>black olives (olive juice and garlic salt is the
>dressing).....and coffee. I'm a big eater and my stomach
>doesn't care what time it is... it eats what it wants whatever
>the time. Oink. I love breakfast:)
>

I'm coming over for breakfast tomorrow (hold the coffee and put on some hot H2O for my green tea!).

;)
 
>It's kind of funny, because a couple of weeks ago, the book
>"Natural Cures They don't Want You to Know About" was
>discussed and quickly dismissed by many people on this forum.
>But as someone who has read the book and benefitted from it, I
>can tell you that much of the information presented is almost
>identical to this "China Study" book y'all are talking about.
>I would encourage you to take a second look at Kevin Trudeau's
>book. I know the point was brought up that he was a convicted
>felon, and yes it's very tempting to dismiss him because of
>it.

I have this book and am reading it.

It does have a lot of useful info in, I agree. I find about 85% of what he writes to be right on the money. (the "30 colonics in 30 days" or whatever, I'm not so into!)

And I do somewhat wonder how much of this "this guy's a crook, don't listen to what he says" talk is generated by those whose livelihoods he is threatening (the "THEY"s), as a way to try to shut him up and get the public to dismiss him? If you look at the reviews on Amazon.com, they are pretty negative, but often in the same way and bringing up his criminal past.

It isn't very well written in places (a tendency towards hyperbole), and he could benefit from a proofreader/editor (he claims to have had no help from anyone, and it's pretty clear at times).
 
>Let's face it, "the masses" aren't particularly interested or
>educated in terms of preventatve health care, or in realizing
>that THEY are responsible for their own health, AND can do SO
>MUCH about it!

I agree and will add that it's not surprising as the prevailing social philosophy in this country is that people have no responsibility for the choices they make; it's always someone else's fault. No surprise that this has drifted over to fitness and health as well. I have a friend who actually blames the government for her chubbiness because "If I didn't have to go out and work to support myself in a Western economy, I would have time to exercise." Insert eye-rolling here.

Sparrow





Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming ‘Wow - what a ride!’ — Peter Sage
 
I went to an Exercise and Nutrition seminar over the weekend and some of the findings from the China Study were presented. I believe it was the stats about hip fractures and how much more prevalent they were in people who consume animal protein vs people who are vegan. The study looked at over 1000 women. It just blew some people away! The presenter (who did/presented tons of research on exercise) really didn't know what to make of it either. I think he felt he had to talk about it because it's such a undeniable and amazing fact. I don't think that many people (RD's included), really understand the impact of animal proteins on the body and many would just rather ignore it and keep preaching what they always preach; that meat/dairy is a food group and a "healthy" staple in the diet. Imagine the financial implications if medical people came out against the meat and dairy industry! They are just too powerful in this country. Another interesting idea the book presents is the fact that the body becomes really acidic when dairy is ingested caused the bones to lose it's calcium. The body actually takes in more calcium from plant based foods than from dairy. Another thing worth noting is that the book is a nutrition study, not necessarily a "diet book". It doesn't tell you the best ways to lose weight or anything like that. It compares plant based diets to those that include animal protein. There really is nothing else out there like it.

Carolyn
 
There is some of the book where you could take it or leave it. But I was most affected by the chapters where he discusses how the food, medical, and pharmaceutical industries are all motivated by more, more, more profits and will do anything to achieve that end, even if it means compromising the American public's health. My family and I will not be compromised by some CEO of a drug or food company simply trying to make his wallet fatter. As Kevin says, "It's all about the money". Again, JMHO :D Pam
 
>So when my MIL goes to her doc and he tells her that her
>cholesterol is way too high, why doesn't he explain that her
>liver produces its own but that ALL of the dietary cholesterol
>she gets ONLY comes from animal based foods?
>
>It seems to me that that should be an option, with him then
>saying "I'm not a dietician, but if you want to cut back on
>your cholesterol, you may want to consider changing your diet,
>and I can refer you to a dietician who can hlp you with those
>issues. Or, I can write you a script for Lipator. It's your
>choice."
>
>My point is that if THAT kind of information were given, then
>yes, I agree that ultimately she's responsible for her own
>health and decisions. But it amazes me that when we were
>talking about cholesterol, she had NO IDEA that the dietary
>stuff only came from animal foods. Her doc ONLY gave her the
>choice (as if there was a choice at all) of the drug. Isn't
>that where the interaction of the pharmaceuticals with the
>docs comes into play? Could there be preventative discussions
>with patients that are based on things completely within our
>control and not an automatic resort to the drug (when
>curiously, the drug rep bought catered lunch for the doc's
>office just the day before.) Do you see what I'm saying?
>

Lorrie,
I would definitely tell your MIL to get a new doctor. I've never heard about a doctor not talking to a patient about diet before or while giving them an antihyperlipidemic. It's absolutely absurd. I would also suggest that she take responsibility for her own health and learn about her disease state instead of blaming her lack of knowledge on the doctor.

You also have to be aware that there are people who would much rather take medication than live on a plant-based or low cholesterol diet. Case in point... my DH said he would rather die 10 years earlier than ever give up meat. He was able to get his cholesterol down by diet alone, but was absolutely miserable.....he decided it was not for him. He said would much rather eat what he considers a normal diet with antihyperlipidemics than ever live like that (mind you, he is in shape, slim and has never been overweight). Again, we are back to personal choice and quality of life.

Robin
 
Lorrie,

There are so many variables to each individual's health including exposures to external forces beyond our control. These external forces, polution, etc. are different depending on where we live geographically. I believe health issues are not black and white but as complex as each individual.

I eat animal protein and I am in excellent health according to my doctor and medical test I take every year. My cholesterol is good. For a 51 year old my bone density scan was very good. I also eat lots and lots of veggies, moderate fruit and whole grains. My breakfast (which I eat every morning by the way) is typically oatmeal with protein powder. I exercise seven days a week.

I'm not one to jump on the band wagon of "conspiracy theories" and have not read the book so I'll reserve judgment. I think I would have to see negative health exams to change my diet.
 
>>I'm coming over for breakfast tomorrow (hold the coffee and
>put on some hot H2O for my green tea!).
>
>;)

Sure Kathryn! I have both Decaf and Regular Green Tea....which do you prefer? I also have Yerbe Mate if you prefer:7

Robin:9
 
>There is some of the book where you could take it or leave
>it. But I was most affected by the chapters where he discusses
>how the food, medical, and pharmaceutical industries are all
>motivated by more, more, more profits and will do anything to
>achieve that end, even if it means compromising the American
>public's health. My family and I will not be compromised by
>some CEO of a drug or food company simply trying to make his
>wallet fatter. As Kevin says, "It's all about the money".
>Again, JMHO :D Pam

Wow, Kevin's not in it for profit? I haven't read the book so I am talking out of a turn a bit here, but the guy went to jail for FRAUD. Makes me a bit wary of anything he says. I agree that I don't want CEO's getting fat at the expense of my health but I don't want a felon doing that either.

One of the reasons I don't read alot of these books is because who can you trust? Most if not all people want to make a profit. Those who say they don't are either lying or have never and so don't know how good it feels :) I'm a born skeptic and when I hear hyperbolic statements about the Evil Drug Companies, Sinister Dairies and the Poor Defrauded American Public I think, "Prove it." Show me sources, evidence, legitimate science etc. Very few books that claim to have uncovered "shocking information" and that sort of thing are actually able to stand up to serious scrutiny. I'm thinking of Fast Food Nation in particular but I could be wrong about that.

Just my opinion. No offense intended. :)

Sparrow


Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming ‘Wow - what a ride!’ — Peter Sage
 
>Sure Kathryn! I have both Decaf and Regular Green Tea....which
>do you prefer? I also have Yerbe Mate if you prefer:7
>
>Robin:9

Hmmmm...a tough choice!
I LOVE Yerba Maté. I have some instant stuff from Wisdom Herbs (just yerba maté extract and stevia) that is great for a quick fix. I've never met anybody else who drinks it.

:7
 
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