Do you beleive in heaven or hell...

Do I believe in heaven or hell? No. I do believe we get what we deserve after this life, but don't think we go to any "place" in particular. Do I believe in God? I believe there is something out there greater than ourselves, but the Judeo-Christian God? No.

There is a lot of pain, suffering and evil in this world, but there is also a great deal of beauty. I acknowledge and try to help as much as I can with the former, but choose to focus my life more on the latter.
 
No, I don't believe in heaven or hell, or religion for that matter (as a student of history I've just seen it cause too much suffering).

That said, I do believe in a higher being, an enlightened spirit, or God, or the missing link, or whatever you want to call it. I also believe that there is some kind of life before/after death--I find it incredibly egocentric for humans to assume we're born, we die, and/or there are no other life forms or alternate states of being out there other than what we witness.

How's that for ambiguity?

;-)
 
In my heart of hearts, I want to believe in Heaven. But deep down, I really don't believe in Heaven or Hell. I believe that when I die, it's over. That's it. I believe in a person's "spirit" living within their loved ones. Because I believe that if someone has touched your life in that way, you carry that around for the rest of your life.

I beleive that this is all we have. I live like this is all I have. I'm not waiting for a better day, alive or dead. I'm living my better days.

Melissa
 
>I may change my mind later but as I've gotten older I have
>taken a more critical view of religion. I have seen that
>organized religion and religious zealotry (sp) has a negative
>affect on the world.
>
I hear that!
 
Interesting topic.

I do not believe in heaven or hell at all. I was raised without religion. The best novel ever written is what i thought of the bible as. I also believe in reincarnation 100%. I 100% respect though people that are religous! Thats what makes the world go round... we can all believe in what we like.

I also do not think the people of our world are getting any worse. People are people and there has always been the good ones and the bad ones. We just live in a time now where with the internet and investigative reporters, we are more aware of what people are doing. The sickos use the internest to target a wide... very wide audience. Need internet cops.
 
TeTe,
I agree. Very well said.


I think there are some people who believe that we have to suffer in this life to merit happiness in the afterlife (a train of thought that early church leaders--who were very 'politically' powerful--would definitely encourage, as it's a way way for them to keep the masses 'happy' with their sorry lot on Earth).

I believe that there is good and evil in the world, but that much of it is of human origin, and that we can make this life a heaven or a hell.

I call myself an agnostic, since 'I don't know, and I don't believe that mortal beings can 'know' the answers to the big metaphysical questions' pretty much fits my belief.

I do feel that there is something beyond this life (even physics teaches that energy is never destroyed, but only transformed), but a Judeo-Christian god? A 'place' that is "Heaven" or "Hell"? No. These are, IMO, too-literal interpretations of book of often wonderful lessons and stories that was written by humans (as Candi said, to control the masses, or more precisely, to bring some semblance of order and humanity to human existance---the threats of retribution from the angry god of the Old Testament are kind of the grown-up version of the old 'wait till your father gets home' threat to children to make them behave).

And as TeTe alluded to, if there is a god, which god is it? Allah? "God"? Zeus? Or are these all just manifestations/masks for a deeper essence?

Organized religion, with its rites and rituals and rules and laws (often 'reinterpreted' by different generations) often leads to more negative than positive. And there are many so-called 'believers' who are just as petty and cruel and inhumane as 'non-believers.'

I don't value people based on whether or not they are religious--of any particular sect or not--but on their actions and if they are 'good people,' and they come from both religious and non-religious backgrounds.

I think the best lesson from the Bible (and under various other guises in other religions) is the Golden Rule. If everyone would remember to treat others as they themselves would like to be treated, I think we'd get a little closer to heaven than to hell on this Earthly plane.
 
Okay, god can forgive murderers, rapists, etc., but the one thing that is unforgiveable to him is that you don't believe in him? Really?

And since you have a hard time grasping that any Nazi believed in Christ and accepted them as their personal saviour, I'll use a more personal example.

A family of four was murdered during a random robbery. They didn't believe in any god; the good they did wasn't for the hope of everlasting paradise, but just because that was who they were: genuinely good people. The monster who murdered them confessed and is in prison. He's asked god for forgiveness, accepted Jesus as his savior, and believes he's saved (according to an interview with the minister, who was his "spiritual council.")

That being the case, the murderer, this monster, who came into this family's home, bound them, stabbed and bludgeoned them to death, one-by-one, in front of each other, is going to heaven, but the victims are in hell? God is so petty that he'll punish good people to an eternity in hell because they didn't believe in him, while their murderer/torturer will live forever in paradise, because, eight dead bodies later (he had other victims before and after my friends), he is "saved"? Are you kidding me?

My friends contributed so much beauty through their actions, their art, their music, their giving, their humor, their children. Their murderer has had a powerful influence, too. Not only in the horror and pain he caused his victims, but the sorrow and hurt for the many family members, friends, and the community who miss these people and have to relive the image of how they probably spent their final moments.

If there were a heaven and a hell, I'd much rather go to where my friends are. I've seen their murderer's face too many times in the paper, on tv, in my imagination, and in my nightmares, to want to spend eternity with it.
 
Hi Lori,

Along the lines of the documentary your friend mentioned, the radio show This American Life did an extended interview with Rev. Carlton Pearson. He was a hugely popular Evangelical pastor with a very big following, until one day, while watching a news story about an atrocity in another country, he started to ask the question: "Are these people already in hell?"

I found it to be a really, really compelling piece. If you're interested, you can listen to an audio stream of it for free on the TAL site. I think you can also buy the podcast. It's episode #304, named "Heretics", from the 2005 season. Here's their site: http://www.thislife.org/

As for me, I just want end up in the same place all my dogs end up...
 
>I also do not think the people of our world are getting any
>worse. People are people and there has always been the good
>ones and the bad ones. We just live in a time now where with
>the internet and investigative reporters, we are more aware of
>what people are doing. The sickos use the internest to target
>a wide... very wide audience. Need internet cops.

I totally agree with this.

Do I believe in heaven and hell? Yes I do. I also believe there is a God and Satan. Someone asked earlier why God does not stop evil things from happening, it is because He gave us free will.
 
>Okay, god can forgive murderers, rapists, etc., but the one
>thing that is unforgiveable to him is that you don't believe
>in him? Really?
>
>And since you have a hard time grasping that any Nazi believed
>in Christ and accepted them as their personal saviour, I'll
>use a more personal example.
>
>A family of four was murdered during a random robbery. They
>didn't believe in any god; the good they did wasn't for the
>hope of everlasting paradise, but just because that was who
>they were: genuinely good people. The monster who murdered
>them confessed and is in prison. He's asked god for
>forgiveness, accepted Jesus as his savior, and believes he's
>saved (according to an interview with the minister, who was
>his "spiritual council.")
>
>That being the case, the murderer, this monster, who came into
>this family's home, bound them, stabbed and bludgeoned them to
>death, one-by-one, in front of each other, is going to heaven,
>but the victims are in hell? God is so petty that he'll
>punish good people to an eternity in hell because they didn't
>believe in him, while their murderer/torturer will live
>forever in paradise, because, eight dead bodies later (he had
>other victims before and after my friends), he is "saved"?
>Are you kidding me?
>
>My friends contributed so much beauty through their actions,
>their art, their music, their giving, their humor, their
>children. Their murderer has had a powerful influence, too.
>Not only in the horror and pain he caused his victims, but the
>sorrow and hurt for the many family members, friends, and the
>community who miss these people and have to relive the image
>of how they probably spent their final moments.
>
>If there were a heaven and a hell, I'd much rather go to where
>my friends are. I've seen their murderer's face too many
>times in the paper, on tv, in my imagination, and in my
>nightmares, to want to spend eternity with it.


I never said anything about a Nazi not believing in Christ. I just do not think it is fair to lump all "Christians" (denominations, groups, etc.) together and then use the Nazi's to characterize us as a whole. I personally would never judge or attack someone for not believing in Heaven or Hell. It is just what I believe in. We all have different beliefs and I would never bring it upon myself to say who is and who isn't going to heaven.

I also never mentioned what I do specifically believe in. My belief is that all humans are born with a sin nature that we inherited from Adam and Eve. I also believe that we all deserve hell, but through Christ dying for us on the cross, he paid for our sins (all of them) and took our place so that we could go to heaven. I believe it is through belief in him and acceptance of that gift that we go to heaven. I also believe that the Bible teaches that the way to heaven is through Christ not works. So I also do not believe that we have to earn our way into heaven. It is a free gift that we just have to accept. I do not think any person has the right or knowledge of who is going to heaven. That is something that only God and that person know. Many people can do something horrible and then claim that they got "saved", but only God knows if there was really a heart change or if they are just saying that - to get a lower sentence or parol. Likewise, a lot of people profess to be Christians and then perform horrible attrocities, such as the Nazis. Are they going to heaven? Only God knows.

Again, these are just MY beliefs. Please do not attack me for them. That is not what this thread is about. If a person of another faith - Jewish, Muslim, etc... posted their beliefs, I certainly would not critize or belittle them. We are all entitled to our own belief system and there is no reason to use this thread to debate differences of opinions and beliefs. I think it is interesting just talking about our beliefs. Whose to say we aren't all just following different paths the same conclusion?
 
I am sorry. I didn't mean to sound like I was attacking you. Guess I do get worked up on this subject because most of the people of Christian denominations that I know do believe that if you don't believe in God and Jesus and the Bible, you will go to hell. (hey, I was raised on it.)

And I certainly didn't mean to make it sound like all Christians are Nazis. I was trying to make an example that many people who do horrible things, truly believe in the teachings of the Bible and, because, as you said, "the way to heaven is through Christ not works," it's very difficult to understand why God punishes good people who do not believe in him with damnation, but "saves" others who have done such evil, but find their way to him. That's one of my issues with believing in heaven, hell, eternal life, god, etc.

We won't ever agree, I'm sure, but I do apologize if it came off as an attack to you personally. I really didn't mean it to sound like that, but, after reading over my post, realize that I let my emotions get the better of me.
 
I've been fortunate in that I've been closely exposed to many different religions, and this has made my beliefs somewhat different than a lot of others. Do I believe in Heaven and Hell? No. I think the concepts of heaven and hell are far too simplistic to symbolize our afterlife. I do also fully believe in re-incarnation. I think we do come back and in a form that is symbolic (for lack of a better term) of how we lived our past life. Do I think for every spider we kill we are doomed to live life as a spider? Not really, but who knows... That's a lot of time as a spider for me... LOL. I also believe there is an eventual end to reincarnation. So I guess you could say I'm more Buddist in my beliefs, even though I'm not a practicing Buddist. But to be given one life and only one life - and how you live that one life depends so much on so many factors over which you have no control - is illogical to me. As is the idea that when we die, it's over. There's too much consciousness in us for me to believe that. I've also been fortunate enough to meet several Lamas (no, not the Dahli Lama, but others), and regardless of your beliefs, there is something in these men that I have seen in no one else. It could be as simple as their beliefs and their upbringing, but if you ever get the chance to really talk to one, do it with an open mind - it's an incredible experience. I really do believe that there is far more to us than even we fully understand and that we are closely related to all creatures on this earth.
 
I agree with Candi, TeTe and Kathryn... I don't know what comes after death, but I really don't believe it's the simplistic heaven and hell that we've been taught about at church.
 
I don't believe in Heaven or Hell. I'm very interested in religion and spirituality but am unsure about my belief in God and consider myself to be an agnostic. If I had to pinpoint my beliefs at this time, I would say I believe in a more abstract sense that there are forces of love and evil in the world, and when I substitute the word, "love" for "God" it works on many levels.

Belief isn't something you can just switch on and off, and damning people for eternity because they don't believe in something is an utterly human abomination and something which would clearly make an omnibenevolent, perfect God shudder. Eternal damnation does not equal love.
 
Liann I completely agree with you and know where you are coming from.
Although it is very difficult to agree or even understand everything the Bible says, somehow "it feels right" for me. I also agree absolutely with Kathryn that if everyone followed the golden rule the earth would be a much better place.

Kathy
 
No problem! It's a very emotional subject on both sides. And it's really HARD writing a post without sounding like you are attacking the other person's view. Trust me, I re-read my second one like 200 times! :) I just wanted to make sure you knew I didn't believe that way - thinking everyone is going to hell but me. I think for me it is a matter of having "something" to believe in. I hate to think that things just end when we die and this is the belief system I have grown up with. I'm not so dogmatic that I think I have all the answers or that this is the only "way". It's just my belief system - keeps me sane. And I definitely don't have everything figured out - like why would a good person who was perhaps an atheist not go to heaven. I would NEVER go up to someone and say "if you do not believe what I do, you're going to Hell". I know people do that though and I think it's wrong. It just gives me personally hope believing that even though I am not a perfect person and I have faults and have done tons of stupid things in my life, I'm still going to heaven. If I believed that I had to work my way to heaven, I would spend my whole life worried whether I had done enough and I doubt I would ever measure up. ;)
 
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