Body pulls energy from where ???

RE: Can I ask one more question......?

Susan,
If eating before a workout leaves you feeling too full, try the 4 oz OJ or apple juice with 4 oz of water. This gives you the bit of glucose you will need to get everything running well and keep you from bottoming out.

I know what you mean about eating--I, too, can eat like a field hand!
Maribeth
 
RE: Can I ask one more question......?

Susan,

Try a Powerbar or Gatorade type drink. Gels are fine too but kind of pricy for the calories. All are easily digestible by design. I eat a Powerbar before dawn rides & runs, then have a normal breakfast afterwards.

Fruit or juice may not work for some people because the fructose can trigger stomach distress.

Debra
 
RE: Can I ask one more question......?

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Aug-15-02 AT 02:22PM (Est)[/font][p]Debra,
Also want to clarify something that might be confusing--the goal of having something in your system first thing in the morning before cardio work is to ensure that fat will be used optimally for fueling the workout. For people who work out within 20-30 minutes of getting up in the morning, they need to elevate the blood glucose levels fairly rapidly. This is best done with liquids or gels that are primarily simple sugars--they are most quickly digested and absorbed. Products with anything else added slow absorption time--meaning that blood glucose levels may not rise in time to make much of a difference with workouts that take place soon after eating.

The goal with this isn't to provide all the calories needed for the workout, just to supply the body with adequate glucose so that fat can be aerobically metabolized for energy. It doesn't take a whole lot--about 100 calories' worth typically does the trick. It's a different story when you talk about resistance training, though--since most of the energy requirements for resistance training are met via anaerobic metabolism of glucose--fat contributes very little due to the nature of the activity-- it takes more in the way of caloric ingestion to adequately fuel the workout first thing in the morning if you are to avoid crashing partway through.

The reason for mixing the fruit juice half and half with water is to prevent the super rapid absorption that triggers the gastric problem. Some, too, will experience stomach upset from the Power and similar bars because protein is harder to digest, especially if they are going to work out right away.
Maribeth
 
RE: Can I ask one more question......?

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Aug-15-02 AT 01:07PM (Est)[/font][p]edited-asked an off topic question and moved it...:)
kathy
 
RE: Can I ask one more question......?

Maribeth,

Apparently there are differing opinions (Liz Applegate; Burke & Berning) regarding how many calories should be consumed. Time between rising & the workout, as well as intensity are factors.

A Powerbar is not a high protein bar. I didn't intend to suggest an intake of fat or protein. If total calories are an issue, one only needs to eat part of it.

Each person reacts differently which is why one must experiment. I merely suggested some things that work for me that also happen to be recommended in Liz Applegate's most recent book for early a.m. exercisers.

Debra
 
RE: Can I ask one more question......?

Debra,
I'm not sure what you're getting at--I don't know who Liz Applegate is. My info comes from my grad school nutrition courses and my training as an exercise physiologist. And you echo my post with the comments about time between rising and the actual workout, as well as the intensity (which actually refers to the predominant metabolic pathway--aerobic vs anaerobic).

The calories comment wasn't in reference to total daily caloric consumption--more directed towards people who don't like to eat in the morning--regarding approximately how many carb calories need to be consumed for sufficient glucose/glycogen refueling. For those who hate eating before a workout, I wanted to assure them that it only takes a fairly small amount of calories to avoid the "empty stomach" syndrome (my name for it).

Yes, there are individual differences in reaction to virtually everything, but there are scientific facts that don't vary. One of those is the fact that fat cannot be metabolized without the presence of two key substances--oxygen and glucose. Another is that without sufficient glucose/glycogen available, the body will break down protein rich tissue, ie muscle, in order to make glucose. I would be happy to refer you to any number of university and graduate level nutrition and exercise physiology texts that explain this in detail. Fat only yields ATP when reacted with oxygen, and the beta-oxidation cycle requires one of the products of the breakdown of glucose to proceed.

BTW, a Power Bar includes substances other than simple carbs, yes? If so, it is not an optimal choice for those who will be exercising within 20-30 minutes of awakening in the morning because the absorption of the nutrients will be slowed by the digestion of other ingredients. If it takes an hour or more for the bar to be digested and absorbed, the workout may be almost finished before the blood sugar boost is realized.

Maribeth
 
RE: Can I ask one more question......?

Hi Maribeth,
I'm trying to think of something small I could consume before a workout, e.g. an orange, a water cracker, a piece of cheese. Would any of those work? I'm not into any of those energy bars and I Drink a lot of water. It would definitely only be 20 minutes before the workout. I have to add that I do drink a cup of coffee the moment I get up with a lot of liquid flavored creamer which I love. No, I absolutely cannot give up my morning coffee, just in case you might suggest that. Thanks for the tips!
 
RE: Can I ask one more question......?

Given that you will be exercising within 20 minutes of your workout, you need to elevate your blood sugar fairly quickly. The orange would be a good choice, as would the water crackers--they are high on the glycemic index, meaning they will elevate your blood sugar rather quickly, which in this case is what we want. Pass on the cheese--too much fat and protein to allow the carbs to be quickly digested and absorbed. You can also do the juice/water combo.

Your coffee isn't a problem--does the creamer have sugar or high fructose corn syrup in it? If so, you are quite possibly getting enough of a boost in blood glucose levels from just your coffee. Check the label to verify ingredients and see if you are consuming about 100 calories' worth--if so, you are good to go with the coffee and creamer.
Maribeth
 
RE: Can I ask one more question......?

Liz Applegate PhD, Nutrition Department at UC Davis, is Runners' World's monthly columnist. Her most recent sports nutrition book is a very good guide for fitness enthusiasts & is one of several that have been discussed on Cathe's forums.

Thanks for the offer, but I already have nutrition texts from my coursework.

A Powerbar is a mix of easily digested simple & complex carbs along with a small amount of fat & protein. So one gets the benefit of quickly absorbed simple carbs along with the staying power of the other fuel. Seems like a good option for somone who has depleted their muscle & liver glycogen during the night.

Again, I merely shared something that works for me & is frequently suggested by sports nutritionists (yes, the ones w/ RD or PhD in a relevent subject).

Debra
 
RE: Can I ask one more question......?

Debra,
My question/statement/info is that anything that slows digestion, ie, fats and proteins, will slow the elevation in blood sugar. Given that it will take a period of time for even the fast acting OJ to kick in, wouldn't a better choice for a person exercising within 20 minutes of ingesting something be a substance whose digestion and absorption time is minimal?

This is different than the advice I give to people who will have say, an hour before activity following eating--in these cases, I recommend a combo of nutrients. But for the person who is getting up, dashing down something quick and hitting the workout, anything that slows absorption will be counterproductive, both in terms of delivering the glucose boost in time and in having to exercise before their food can be digested (the nausea associated with this is a big factor I have to deal with in terms of getting people to avoid exercise on an empty stomach).
Maribeth
 
RE: Can I ask one more question......?

This has all been some very good advice. Maribeth, if you don't mind, I would like the names of those texts..... I love to read this stuff.....Thanks, Janice
 
RE: Can I ask one more question......?

Maribeth...


What do you think of this??....

When you do aerobics at a relatively high level of blood glucose, your muscles are fueled directly by their existing glycogen, and by the glucose in the blood supply, which is fine. When you do the aerobics at a lower level of blood glucose (in the morning, or a few hours after your previous meal) the muscles have less of a supply to work with, so as your muscle glycogen gets depleted, two things happen. 1) your body has to replenish the glycogen by converting free fatty acids, which means that the enzymes responsible for "lipolysis" become more active. As Covert Bailey puts it, "you become a better butter burner". And 2) the replenishment of that glycogen has taken a longer path. Food that you previously ate that was first converted to fat (never 100% efficient) then has to be converted back from fat to glycogen (never 100% efficient), and then burned as energy in the muscles (really inefficient, with 60-70% expended as heat). So by doing the aerobics on lower blood glucose (not too low or you'll get dizzy) you condition your fat-burning enzymes and expend a little extra energy on the back-and-forth conversions. That, by the way, is also why you wait about an hour before eating carbohydrates in particular - you want the glycogen replenished indirectly, through lipolysis, rather than directly through intake. As I explain on my main page, there's increasing evidence that leucine intake (no carbs) immediately after intense training can help muscle synthesis. So if you eat anything, go for a protein powder high in "branched chain amino acids". Precision Protein (ion-exchanged whey) is a good choice. Hope that helps! John [Back to Q&A Index]

It came from a website for John P Hussman PHD. Do you think as he does that AM exercising is superior?? Isn't this going against all we are talking about here???? I thought high glycemic index carbs immediatley after a workout was best for maximum muscle glycogen restoration. He is saying NOT???

THIS IS WHERE IT GETS CONFUSING!!!!
 
RE: Can I ask one more question......?

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Aug-17-02 AT 11:31AM (Est)[/font][p]No matter what it is still calories out vs calories in that determines whether fat is lost. I'm a big fan of Covert Bailey's but I have never seen him advocate exercise on an empty stomach--I went back and checked my latest Covert book. Here's why.

When you exercise on an empty stomach--nothing to eat for at least 8 hours, the body will deplete its glycogen stores, then, because the body HAS to have glucose to function, will make it from other sources (gluconeogenesis)--this is a mini-starvation situation. While fat will contribute a small amount to this, the biggest source of substrate for gluconeogenesis comes from protein (~85 percent)--in an unfed state, the typical source is lean muscle mass. If you have adequate glycogen available during exercise, you can burn a significantly greater amount of fat to fuel the exercise than you will to build glucose. Additionally, when glycogen stores are low, endurance is low--you can't exercise as long or as intensely. For purposes of loss of body fat and/or lean muscle maintenance, exercise on an empty stomach is counterproductive.

In healthy people, blood sugar levels decrease during exercise, hitting a critical point about 20 minutes into the activity. Prior to this point, there is some fat fueling the exercise, but the primary fuel is blood glucose. At about the 20 minute point, as the blood sugar levels decrease to a certain point, hormones cause a surge of fatty acids to be released from the fat cells. In a glycogen depleted state, the blood sugar levels have to be build up first--through gluconeogenesis--and a whopping 85% of the substrate for gluconeogenesis will come from protein stores! In an unfed state (such as overnight), this is already happening before the exercise starts, but when the energy demands increase, so will the grams of protein contributing to the building of glucose--bye-bye, muscle! Blood glucose levels have to be maintained for the body to function normally--if they are low to start with due to not eating, or any other reason, for that matter, the body will make more glucose, but using primarily protein (~85%) to make it.

The "Better Butter Burner" Covert is talking about comes from developing the fat metabolizing enzymes through becoming fit. The fitter you are, the more your body will be able to utilize fat as a fuel for exercise at any intensity. It isn't a matter of having to deplete glycogen for this to happen--there's a difference in having blood sugar drop during exercise and being in a depleted state. Actually, fit people are glycogen sparers, not glycogen burners--they have enhanced capacity to store glycogen and enhanced capacity to utilize fat at all times, especially during exercise. Unfit people have poorly developed fat metabolizing enzymes because they burn few calories through activity. The fewer calories expended through exercise, the less well developed the body's fat metabolizing system needs to be--it's survival and "use it or lose it".

As for not eating immediately after exercise--again, it's calories out vs calories in. Immediately post exercise is a prime time to replenish glycogen stores, especially with simple carbs. And, the elevation in metabolic rate post exercise is enhanced by eating, meaning that a post exercise meal will result in more calories being burned than that meal will if you eat it several hours later.

When you read something where a specific product is touted, like Precision Protein, look very skeptically--regardless of the credentials of the person, there is financial motivation behind the article. And it makes no difference when you exercise during the day--other than if you have trouble sleeping after a workout. The mechanisms for exercise and recovery are the same.

Bottom line is that exercise on an empty stomach guarantees one thing--protein will be burned to a very significant degree. For long term metabolism maintenance and fat loss, this is a bad thing. Does it burn a few extra calories to force your body to have to make glucose--yes. Do you expend significantly less calories in the exercise process when you hit the wall or have to drop your intensity level--absolutely--particularly with strength training, which is highly dependent on glucose as fuel. Are the few extra calories expended to make glucose worth the loss of intensity and lean muscle mass--IMHO, no way!

Maribeth
 
RE: Can I ask one more question......?

Thanks again Maribeth. Hey, are you gonna give me those texts?? Any good ones you think I will benefit from reading will do. I get the general idea now, with the morning exercise. I always drink coffee in the am with milk and creamer, so I guess I don't have to worry about it. One thing I don't get though, is this:::

Say I eat a really large meal for dinner. Some of those cals go for body upkeep right, and some go to storage. It is my understanding that my body will fill my glycogen stores in my muscles and then deposit the "leftovers" into storage. So why, in the am, with my muscle glycogen stores full, can I not use this glucose as the "starter" for my exercise. I thought that was the point of having full glucose stores.

See, I am very inquisitive, so the books would probably shut me up on this. Any books/ texts to clarify these things for me would be much fun reading for me. Thanks, and I hope to hear from you.....Janice
 
RE: Can I ask one more question......?

And a couple more questions....(they are along the same line so I wanted to include them in this thread). First I want to thank everyone (especially Meribeth, but everyone else in this thread) for taking the time and energy to share their knowledge and experience to help others achieve their goals. The diet and fitness world is so filled with misinformation, product hyping and fads that it can be hard to sort things out and stay grounded in facts. Many people read these threads that never respond, you never know how many people you influence. I don't mean to sound mushy, I just wanted to say thanks. Now, my questions: 1) You mentioned that post exercise is a prime time to replenish glycogen stores, especially with simple carbs. There are those who say protein should be replenished post-workout, hence the hyping of protein bars. What should you eat after a workout, and if you eat nothing do you risk having low glucose and glycogen and therefore using your muscle for energy? Does it depend upon the intensity of the workout? I've always thought that if I don't feel hungry, I probably have an adequate glucose level, therefore don't need to eat. 2) During the course of the day, when not exercising, you have said that with oxygen and glucose present, most of the energy used by the body is derived from fat. For those who do not exercise early in the morning, if they do not eat anything, are they utilizing fat or protein? Thanks again for your answers.
 
RE: Maribeth, I have a question!!!

The food
>doesn't have to have protein
>at all, just a shot
>of a carb to refuel
>your engine. And it
>doesn't take much--just enough to
>provide the glucose you need
>to spare muscle protein.

You are amazing Maribeth!!!! Thanks for making me uderstand my body much better! About how many grams of carbs is needed in the morning before the workout to make sure muscle protein is not used for energy during the workout, only glycogen and maybe some stored fat? I guess the point is not worrying about using fat as a source during the workout----it is about calories in vs. calories out. I read an article that mentioned that the fasting state usually has a higher percent of fat used, but the carb state has a greater total fat expenditure because we can exercise longer and harder. So in other words, having a light carbo snack will help you burn more calories. The article really did not mention using muscle protein, and that is the last thing I want to do.

Alicia
 
RE: Okay - I am confused

Maribeth,
How and where did you learn all this about nutrition and fitness? You are my role model!!!! How can I learn all this? Go back to school? Read many books? Is this what you do for a living?

Alicia
 
RE: Can I ask one more question......?

Maribeth,
100 calories worth of carbs 20 minutes before a cardio and/or a strength training session?? I will do the juice thing 20 minutes before my cardio. Do the same thing before the resistance training workout?

Alicia
 
RE: Can I ask one more question......?

KMH,
You're so right, I have learnt so much from seeing what other people are asking. I constantly check into this website for info.

Maribeth if you're out there, how about half of a banana before working out? I started with an orange last week and then I thought maybe a half of a banana would be more beneficial as it has a little bit of everything, Even though I only eat half of a nana, I found it a little harder than the orange, it was very filling at 4:30 in the morning.
Thanks.
 

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