Avoiding Muscle breakdown/Catabolism - What are your thoughts?

[nckfitheart2009]

Hi Everyone,

It is proven that working out more than 60 minutes end up in production of cortisol in our body which is not healthy and not recommended for muscle building. Also we are not gaining any benefit from extreme premixes (premixes lasting longer than an hour).

I have done extreme premixes now and then.

What do you think about all these premixes. Are they staples of your weekly routines or are they segment you perform from time to time? Is there any purpose doing them?

Cathe Friedrich - 4 Ways to Reduce the Muscles Catabolic Effects of Cardiovascular Exercise
Cathe Friedrich - Building Lean Body Mass: 6 Things That Sabotage Muscle Growth
Cathe Friedrich - Factors That Can Increase Your Cortisol Level and Make It Harder to Control Your Weight


Hope to read your thoughts about this

 

[Justinef]

Hi Nathalie,
I do extreme premixes sometimes, my principal reason being to build endurance for other sports (especially skiing at this time of year). Neither muscle growth nor weight loss are my primary goals in doing exercise, just general health and fitness. (Of course, I'm not saying that I don't want to build muscle, just that it's not the number 1 reason for me.)

It's one of the best things about Cathe - she has something for everyone, and for everyone's different goals.
Justine

 

[bonjonbart]

Hi Nathalie,

I do extreme mixes from time to time, too.
I'm not too worried about them. I make sure I have extra protein and veggies on those days, often eating nuts and/or eggs after I work out.

I found a couple of links that might interest you. I think you're fine if you don't workout in an extreme fashion every day, eat well, and get plenty of sleep/rest.

How to Avoid a Catabolic State / Fitness / Body Building

Bodybuilding.com - Fight Back To Build Mass: Let These Catabolic Crushers Help Keep Hard Earned Muscle!

 

[nckfitheart2009]

Hi justine,


Thanks justine for kicking off this discussion.

I agree and I am glad cathe cater for everyone preferences and/or goals. I do believe endurance is as important as hypertrophy/strength. Yes I love lifting moderate and heavy. Shocking my system is important and adding longer endurance from time to time is fine. i would also completely deviate from my usual routine if i was embarking in a new fitness event or challenge. Crossfit, marathon etc...IMO that is when I would do those extreme premixes.

I just would like to know what other thoughts are

 

[Justinef]

Good aticles, Bonnie - I had no idea that the highest amount of growth hormones are released during sleep - what better reason for an extra snooze.
Justine

 

[firemedic]

Hi Everyone,

It is proven that working out more than 60 minutes end up in production of cortisol in our body which is not healthy and not recommended for muscle building. Also we are not gaining any benefit from extreme premixes (premixes lasting longer than an hour).

I have done extreme premixes now and then.

What do you think about all these premixes. Are they staples of your weekly routines or are they segment you perform from time to time? Is there any purpose doing them?

Cathe Friedrich - 4 Ways to Reduce the Muscles Catabolic Effects of Cardiovascular Exercise
Cathe Friedrich - Building Lean Body Mass: 6 Things That Sabotage Muscle Growth
Cathe Friedrich - Factors That Can Increase Your Cortisol Level and Make It Harder to Control Your Weight


Hope to read your thoughts about this

Now are you talking 60 mins or more at once or total in the day? I'm assuming it's the all at once. I do extremes time to time also, again mostly to change things up and endurance. I was also wondering, what is the average amount of time to put into exercising? I try to do 2 different workouts in a day, usually resulting in a total of 90 mins to 120+ mins. But I also listen to my body, and if the 2nd workout isn't there, I don't worry about it. I try to do 1 cardio and 1 weight per day, like upper one day then lower the next and one lower impact cardio one day and high impact the next. I was just wondering how much time do people give to working out per day. Sometimes I wonder if I should be doing more or less.

Kim

 

[nckfitheart2009]

Now are you talking 60 mins or more at once or total in the day? I'm assuming it's the all at once. I do extremes time to time also, again mostly to change things up and endurance. I was also wondering, what is the average amount of time to put into exercising? I try to do 2 different workouts in a day, usually resulting in a total of 90 mins to 120+ mins. But I also listen to my body, and if the 2nd workout isn't there, I don't worry about it. I try to do 1 cardio and 1 weight per day, like upper one day then lower the next and one lower impact cardio one day and high impact the next. I was just wondering how much time do people give to working out per day. Sometimes I wonder if I should be doing more or less.

Kim

Extreme session last more than 60 minutes at once.

 

[nikkigiovanni]

I do long cardio workouts often because I really enjoy them. The key to preventing high levels of cortisol and muscle catabolism is eating a diet that's sufficient in calories and carbs. You can use the workout manager to find out how many calories you should be eating daily and try to stay close to that or if you're looking to lose fat, eat a little less than that (no more than 20% of your TDEE). If I'm doing a cardio workout that lasts longer than an hour, then I make sure to take in some carbs, usually in the form of Gatorade or energy gels, every 15-20 min once I get past that 60 min mark. The goal is to make sure that your glycogen stores don't become depleted. It's when glycogen gets that low that cortisol increases to unhealthy levels and begin to break down muscle for energy. I do long cardio workouts several times per week, but I don't have a problem with muscle loss because I make sure that my diet is sufficient in calories and carbs. If you love cardio, you can't be afraid of carbs as a lot of people seem to be. Also, continuing to strength train and getting in enough protein helps to prevent muscle loss. Equally important is the post-workout meal. Eating as soon as possible after a workout helps your body to decrease cortisol levels, restore glycogen more quickly, and recover more quickly from the workout. Carbs and protein are important in the post-workout meal. It's ideal to eat within 2 hrs after the workout, preferably within the first 20 min.

Here's an article that Cathe wrote a while ago on the topic:

http://cathe.com/do-cardio-workouts-cause-muscle-loss

 

[DirtDiva]

I would be confused and probably go insane if I believed all the studies on weight lifting and fitness in general. Cathe says in many of her workouts....listen to your body. I think that is key to learning what it feels like to over-train which is a symptom of elevated cortisol levels.

This is going to sound condescending, and its not meant to be, but how do these cortisol studies apply to being female, male, age, and all the other parameters considering it may not entirely be your workout that's causing elevated cortisol, but in conjunction with crappy food, stress, poor sleep, muscle imbalances, (geez what a long sentence ). I guess what I'm trying to say is how do *they* know how much cortisol will bring the tree down?

If I was a competitive bodybuilder or figure model, then its going to get really complicated, but in my sport its like poking the turkey to see if its done. I'd lose every endurance race I compete in if I stopped a workout at 60 minutes or gave myself a finite time to workout during any given day because of cortisol.

I think extreme premixes (over 60 minutes) like my favorite on 4DS Full body may not work for everyone but does for me. I typically like to lift longer then 1 hour anyway. A normal day is something along the lines of weight lifting and then I'll take it outdoors for several hours and that is year round because I compete in different endurance events. My rest day is usually something easy like slow weight lifting or riding my trainer, but I typically log in about 21 hours a week in the winter and longer in the summer. So my answer is, I am not going to worry about longer workouts since my current results are positive and I'm super happy with my muscle structure. If that changes, then I make changes and find out what works from there.

Btw, great post!

 

[Justinef]

I love the comparison with poking the turkey to see if it's done!!!

The thing that always strikes me about these studies is the 'no longer than an hour' 'take a rest day once a week' etc - do our bodies really understand these manmade timescales?
Sometimes I need to rest after 5 days, sometimes after 9. A workout can be 20 minutes, all the way up to more than a couple of hours.
Like Kim, I do more than one session a day - but only if it feels right. Sometimes I yearn for a cardio blast in the evening. Other times I just want to sit by the fire with a good book.

I'm learning how to test if the turkey is ready

 

[ReneePruitt]

Lol I still don't think my turkey is done! I agree with the last two post. I know long workouts are fun and I like doing an hour sometimes hour and a half but other time 35 minutes of jogging or a hiit but I know I have a good bit of fat so wouldn't it be good for the fat if u had longer workouts? I guess what I am thinking is the more fat I have I don't see the need to eat as much and I can exercise longer to burn the fat on my body cause if I do my exercise before I eat I feel I am burning fat cells and if I eat then ill be burning carbs. I don't know I'm not an expert my no means but I lost 70 pounds by cardio and light to medium weights every day for six days and ate mostly veggies and fruit ate a lot less calories and lost the weight. But I got lazy and gained some back now it has been over a year and I tried to eat to fuel my exercise like I keep reading about, and I tried the hiit a lot but I still kept gaining weight. Now I started longer jogs weights before the cardio and eating a lot less and finally I see I lost 8 pounds. I think as I lose the weight I will be able to eat mire the thinner I get if I stay active. Because is have less fat and that would then cause problems if I don't have fat to burn much then I can eat with some carbs in there even cause my body would need more by then. Like I said since my fat by thin would be low i would eat more. Does that make sense? I have 20 more pounds to go grr

 

[nikkigiovanni]

I would be confused and probably go insane if I believed all the studies on weight lifting and fitness in general. Cathe says in many of her workouts....listen to your body. I think that is key to learning what it feels like to over-train which is a symptom of elevated cortisol levels.

This is going to sound condescending, and its not meant to be, but how do these cortisol studies apply to being female, male, age, and all the other parameters considering it may not entirely be your workout that's causing elevated cortisol, but in conjunction with crappy food, stress, poor sleep, muscle imbalances, (geez what a long sentence ). I guess what I'm trying to say is how do *they* know how much cortisol will bring the tree down?

If I was a competitive bodybuilder or figure model, then its going to get really complicated, but in my sport its like poking the turkey to see if its done. I'd lose every endurance race I compete in if I stopped a workout at 60 minutes or gave myself a finite time to workout during any given day because of cortisol.

I think extreme premixes (over 60 minutes) like my favorite on 4DS Full body may not work for everyone but does for me. I typically like to lift longer then 1 hour anyway. A normal day is something along the lines of weight lifting and then I'll take it outdoors for several hours and that is year round because I compete in different endurance events. My rest day is usually something easy like slow weight lifting or riding my trainer, but I typically log in about 21 hours a week in the winter and longer in the summer. So my answer is, I am not going to worry about longer workouts since my current results are positive and I'm super happy with my muscle structure. If that changes, then I make changes and find out what works from there.

Btw, great post!

I agree with this. Another little tidbit of information that's usually excluded from these reports is that as your fitness level improves, your body produces less stress hormone in response to exercise which is how exercise protects the body from stress and helps the body to become better able to handle stress from any source. I can do 90 min of cardio with ease so I doubt that I'm producing the same amount of stress doing a long cardio workout as someone who's not accustomed to that type of workout.

Also, the damaging effects of cortisol don't happen because of the long workout itself. It's damaging under prolonged exposure to cortisol like in people who are chronically stressed. If, for example, you're always stressed because of a stressful job or if you're following a very low calorie diet while frequently doing long workouts, etc., then you're more likely to experience the negative effects of excess cortisol. This topic seems to come up a lot in the fitness world, especially among those whose main focus is to build muscle and my advice is always to provide your body with enough fuel to support your chosen activity and to manage stress in other areas of your life keeping in mind that regular cardiovascular exercise improves your body's ability to handle stress causing your body to produce less cortisol in response to stress.

Endurance is my main focus and I'm pleased that I'm able to do long workouts so I have no intention on ever cutting my workouts short for fear of muscle catabolism. I've only done the original 55 min versions of both PRS workouts once. Since then, I've only done the extreme premixes and love them. I always look for the long premixes on Cathe's DVDs.

 

[bonjonbart]

I am loving this thread! Thanks for getting the ball rolling, Nathalie.

 

[dixiedog6]

I am loving this thread! Thanks for getting the ball rolling, Nathalie.

I agree, very interesting conversation! I am one who does workouts greater than 60 minutes a session on most days. I always just listen to the way I feel and chose workouts that are appropriate for how I feel on that day. I have never considered any of the points in these articles, I just go with how I feel. Loving the discussion in this thread! Definitely something to think about.

 

[nckfitheart2009]

Wow I am happy to see you are enjoying the discussion as much as I do.

It is a pure joy

Nikkigiovanni and Dirtdiva, you are Queen of endurance ;-).

Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts.
I appreciate it. You views are really interesting.

Please keep them coming

 

[DirtDiva]

I love the comparison with poking the turkey to see if it's done!!!

The thing that always strikes me about these studies is the 'no longer than an hour' 'take a rest day once a week' etc - do our bodies really understand these manmade timescales?
Sometimes I need to rest after 5 days, sometimes after 9. A workout can be 20 minutes, all the way up to more than a couple of hours.
Like Kim, I do more than one session a day - but only if it feels right. Sometimes I yearn for a cardio blast in the evening. Other times I just want to sit by the fire with a good book.

I'm learning how to test if the turkey is ready

See now...THIS is what I was trying to say and you said it better and WAY *shorter* then I did!

I agree especially about longer rest periods too. I'm training for a 40 mile fatbike race (snow) this winter, and its not the length of the ride but the temps that I'm worried about. I lasted 2 hours for 20 miles at -8 (negative) and my outer gear was frozen to me, this is double so I'm hoping for warmer temps. I will be out of commission for at least 5 days after that one with a bottle of SkinnyGirl and epsom salts to reduce that cortisol .

 

[DirtDiva]

I agree with this. Another little tidbit of information that's usually excluded from these reports is that as your fitness level improves, your body produces less stress hormone in response to exercise which is how exercise protects the body from stress and helps the body to become better able to handle stress from any source. I can do 90 min of cardio with ease so I doubt that I'm producing the same amount of stress doing a long cardio workout as someone who's not accustomed to that type of workout.

Also, the damaging effects of cortisol don't happen because of the long workout itself. It's damaging under prolonged exposure to cortisol like in people who are chronically stressed. If, for example, you're always stressed because of a stressful job or if you're following a very low calorie diet while frequently doing long workouts, etc., then you're more likely to experience the negative effects of excess cortisol. This topic seems to come up a lot in the fitness world, especially among those whose main focus is to build muscle and my advice is always to provide your body with enough fuel to support your chosen activity and to manage stress in other areas of your life keeping in mind that regular cardiovascular exercise improves your body's ability to handle stress causing your body to produce less cortisol in response to stress.

Endurance is my main focus and I'm pleased that I'm able to do long workouts so I have no intention on ever cutting my workouts short for fear of muscle catabolism. I've only done the original 55 min versions of both PRS workouts once. Since then, I've only done the extreme premixes and love them. I always look for the long premixes on Cathe's DVDs.

I'm really happy reading this (and seriously I read it twice) great info!

 

[irongrl]

Love this thread! I am getting ready to start the "Spinerval Challenge" on Dec. 1st. I will be riding (spinning bike) 10+ hours a week. I did the Challenge last year too, which culminated in a 5.5 hour, 93 mile ride on Jan. 1st. I am pretty sure I did not lose any muscle mass doing the challenge last year, and my body fat did drop a little. I've been doing long distance endurance training for over 20 years. I started out running, but do more biking now. I try not to get too caught up in the latest fitness trends, I just do what I feel like doing. At 51, after 20+ years of endurance training, I weigh less than I did at 30 and I am happy with myself. I would like to get stronger and add a little muscle, which is why I've added Cathe workouts to my routine.

 

[lainabaina]

Your body has enough energy stores to complete about 90 mins of exercise without needing to replenish with some protein to avoid catabolizing muscle. I don't recall any Cathe premixes longer than that. I plan my ride fuel for how long of a ride I'll be doing. If it is 2+ hours then I'll use a drink mixture that has some protein. There is good info & explanation on this site regarding fueling: www.hammernutrition.com

 

[Candiceena]

This is such great information. Nathalie, thanks for getting this discussion started! I've been away from Cathe and these boards for too long. This is really getting my fitness mojo going!

I don't know much about the science of working out/eating (although I love reading and learning about it) so thanks for those who are much more knowledgeable for sharing your knowledge in words and phrases that I understand!

It makes sense to me that as you get better at exercising (mentally, being able to handle longer workouts, and physically, being able to lift the weight, go the distance, push to a certain degree, or maintain high-intenisity for a certain amt of time, etc) that your body would produce less and less cortisol.

One thing I will say is that I think Mark Sisson has a great outlook on how we should try to live our lives - the actual EATING part, and what you are and are not "supposed" to eat, aside. He recommends sleep, leisure time, long walks, time with friends and family, less TV, less sitting, emphasizes minimizing stress, getting adequate sunlight, avoiding TV/electronics at night, etc.