Anyone use an Adkins type of diet?
- Thread starter parothdsue
- Start date
JenniferAnn,
Without knowing your current body size, calculating your daily caloric intake is a little challenging, but 1400 calories for an active person is pretty low. Considering that current thinking is that for those trying to lose weight, no less than 1200 calories per day is recommended, I think you can up your kcals a bit.
I see no problem with the eating lower fat and your carb intake is right near the RDA. I also tend to think that for active people, particularly if they engage in regular strength training, that the RDA for protein is too low. Organizations such as the National Strength and Conditioning Association and the Gatorade Sports Science Institute have mentioned that these people need approximately .8 grams of protein per pound of body weight per day vs the .6-.8 grams per kilogram the RDA suggests.
If you follow this guideline, the percentage of calories from the three nutrients changes a bit. Typically, when you break it down, it comes out to be about 25% protein, 55% carbs and 20% fat. Personally, I try to keep my protein intake at the .8 grams per pound level--I find when I do, my body responds to training better, my sweet cravings decrease substantially and I don't feel hungry as often. But it is essential for my carbs to be up there, even if I have to sacrifice some of the fat--otherwise, I get glycogen depleted and hypoglycemic.
Maribeth
Without knowing your current body size, calculating your daily caloric intake is a little challenging, but 1400 calories for an active person is pretty low. Considering that current thinking is that for those trying to lose weight, no less than 1200 calories per day is recommended, I think you can up your kcals a bit.
I see no problem with the eating lower fat and your carb intake is right near the RDA. I also tend to think that for active people, particularly if they engage in regular strength training, that the RDA for protein is too low. Organizations such as the National Strength and Conditioning Association and the Gatorade Sports Science Institute have mentioned that these people need approximately .8 grams of protein per pound of body weight per day vs the .6-.8 grams per kilogram the RDA suggests.
If you follow this guideline, the percentage of calories from the three nutrients changes a bit. Typically, when you break it down, it comes out to be about 25% protein, 55% carbs and 20% fat. Personally, I try to keep my protein intake at the .8 grams per pound level--I find when I do, my body responds to training better, my sweet cravings decrease substantially and I don't feel hungry as often. But it is essential for my carbs to be up there, even if I have to sacrifice some of the fat--otherwise, I get glycogen depleted and hypoglycemic.
Maribeth
getyourfreakon0402
New Member
I LOVE LOW-FAT, VEGETARIAN EATING!
It rocks....for me. I've no doubt that all us unique bodies prefer different ways of eating. That said...I switched to eating this way more (ala McDougall or Ornish) just 90% of the time and I lost 6 lbs. in one month. Now, I only had like 18 lbs. to lose so I'm pretty close to goal. I'm never hungry and eat as much as I want. Honestly. I haven't done any cholestoral tests so I can't say anything about it. check out www.vegsource. com/mcdougall
Best of luck!
It rocks....for me. I've no doubt that all us unique bodies prefer different ways of eating. That said...I switched to eating this way more (ala McDougall or Ornish) just 90% of the time and I lost 6 lbs. in one month. Now, I only had like 18 lbs. to lose so I'm pretty close to goal. I'm never hungry and eat as much as I want. Honestly. I haven't done any cholestoral tests so I can't say anything about it. check out www.vegsource. com/mcdougall
Best of luck!
Cynthia8828
Cathlete
>i went on the adkins diet
>last year after my vacation
>in vegas. I had
>been working out with all
>of cathe's videos for quite
>a while. I found
>i had NO ENERGY at
>all. I was an
>ordeal to complete a workout.
>Also, i couldn't stand not
>eating vegies, fruits, and cereals.
> When i dropped off
>the diet (about 2 weeks)
>my energy levels came back.
> I am trying to
>add more fiber, watch portions,
>and alternate weights one day
>and aerobics the next.
I eat TONS of veggies and 2 fruits a day. Are you sure you were on Atkins? Also, it is not uncommon for me to throw in a bowl of brown rice, or 1/2 of a sweet potato, or what not, on days where my carb intake is doing great. I think that a lot of people have a lot of misconceptions about exactly what LO carb dieting is about. Further, I wish people would hear those who follow a lo carb diet when they say that it is NOT a NO carb diet, it is a LO carb diet. People seem to keep ignoring that.
I am never one to argue with anyone...quite frankly about anything, because my view has always been different strokes for different folks. Between Lo cal, lo fat, lo carb, hi fiber, and so forth and so on, there are many diets that work for many people. All I know is that I have been extremely successful eating lo carb, which I was not at all while eating lo cal and/or lo fat, and I DO eat fruits and veggies, and I AM a happy person and I DO have more energy then ever and I DO look physically fit and I am NOT drawn out, pale, or barking at the moon. Further, I could easily see myself eating this way for life. It is healthy, easy, and extremely convenient when eating with my family. I eat tons of salads, veggies, 2 fruits a day, and a healthy balance of fat and protein. Further, I eat brown rice, sweet potatoes, spinach pasta, etc., about 3-4 times per week. How is this an unhealthy diet when I eat healthier now than I ever did on a lo-cal/lo fat diet? All of this is in my carb intake allowance every day, and I am still losing weight. Once I am done (about 5 more pounds), I will have even MORE carbs. I know that you all mean well, I truly do. But please be sure you completely understand a lo-carb way of eating before you are convinced it is unhealthy.
God Bless,
Cynthia
>last year after my vacation
>in vegas. I had
>been working out with all
>of cathe's videos for quite
>a while. I found
>i had NO ENERGY at
>all. I was an
>ordeal to complete a workout.
>Also, i couldn't stand not
>eating vegies, fruits, and cereals.
> When i dropped off
>the diet (about 2 weeks)
>my energy levels came back.
> I am trying to
>add more fiber, watch portions,
>and alternate weights one day
>and aerobics the next.
I eat TONS of veggies and 2 fruits a day. Are you sure you were on Atkins? Also, it is not uncommon for me to throw in a bowl of brown rice, or 1/2 of a sweet potato, or what not, on days where my carb intake is doing great. I think that a lot of people have a lot of misconceptions about exactly what LO carb dieting is about. Further, I wish people would hear those who follow a lo carb diet when they say that it is NOT a NO carb diet, it is a LO carb diet. People seem to keep ignoring that.
I am never one to argue with anyone...quite frankly about anything, because my view has always been different strokes for different folks. Between Lo cal, lo fat, lo carb, hi fiber, and so forth and so on, there are many diets that work for many people. All I know is that I have been extremely successful eating lo carb, which I was not at all while eating lo cal and/or lo fat, and I DO eat fruits and veggies, and I AM a happy person and I DO have more energy then ever and I DO look physically fit and I am NOT drawn out, pale, or barking at the moon. Further, I could easily see myself eating this way for life. It is healthy, easy, and extremely convenient when eating with my family. I eat tons of salads, veggies, 2 fruits a day, and a healthy balance of fat and protein. Further, I eat brown rice, sweet potatoes, spinach pasta, etc., about 3-4 times per week. How is this an unhealthy diet when I eat healthier now than I ever did on a lo-cal/lo fat diet? All of this is in my carb intake allowance every day, and I am still losing weight. Once I am done (about 5 more pounds), I will have even MORE carbs. I know that you all mean well, I truly do. But please be sure you completely understand a lo-carb way of eating before you are convinced it is unhealthy.
God Bless,
Cynthia
Hi Cynthia,
Maybe the diet has changed since I went on it and my father had such a bad experience with it.
I do have a question ... you eat brown rice and pasta. Is the pasta the Atkins pasta or WW pasta or regular pasta? I'd like to know a bit more about that. How often do you eat brown rice and how much? Is it like Uncle Bens rice or is it another type.
In the store, I go down the health food isle and check things out ... never know what little gems you will find. I saw the Atkins pasta and looked at the label. I thought it was quite odd to see pasta by Atkins ... it just seemed like an oxymoron. I’m a label freak since I’ve started getting myself educated on the subject. Man, it’s scary once you start doing label research and complicated. Not Atkins, but labels in general … SCARY!
But, I’m wondering is that what you eat? Also, how many carbs are you on a day? That may help too with the definition of low carb vs. no carb. Also, can you share how much fiber you get into your daily diet? I know that people with IBS swear by Atkins type diets but it’s because the lower fiber and it appears that the lower carbs generally don’t inflame that condition.
How many grams of protein do you get in a day? I know like the Zone has a 40-30-30 type of a ratio. That seems entirely appropriate as an eating plan.
I don’t know if my father got an old book on Atkins or not, but I remember (it could have been the induction period) he couldn’t eat too many veggies and fruits. I will never forget the time that we went to a buffet type of a restaurant because that had the widest variety of food choices to support all of our eating styles. What he chooses was ground beef with cheese sauce, light on the broccoli, and a small salad. He kept saying, “I can’t have this or that, too many carbs.” Then his wife would count his carbs for him every time he’d bring something back. Married life … isn’t it bliss? Me, I had a HUGE salad with all the fixins’ plus the real dressing.
We got into a discussion about beans that night and they both were telling that beans is a big no no, too many carbs. I just thought to myself, “Ok, there went ½ of my diet.” Do you eat beans on the plan that you’re on? How much or how often? I have also hear that you can adjust your carbs by subtracting out the fiber grams from the carb grams and go with that number. Do you do that on your plan? Did you do an induction type of thing?
Thanks.
Keta.
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[link:mykbtfit.net/|KBT Forum]
Maybe the diet has changed since I went on it and my father had such a bad experience with it.
I do have a question ... you eat brown rice and pasta. Is the pasta the Atkins pasta or WW pasta or regular pasta? I'd like to know a bit more about that. How often do you eat brown rice and how much? Is it like Uncle Bens rice or is it another type.
In the store, I go down the health food isle and check things out ... never know what little gems you will find. I saw the Atkins pasta and looked at the label. I thought it was quite odd to see pasta by Atkins ... it just seemed like an oxymoron. I’m a label freak since I’ve started getting myself educated on the subject. Man, it’s scary once you start doing label research and complicated. Not Atkins, but labels in general … SCARY!
But, I’m wondering is that what you eat? Also, how many carbs are you on a day? That may help too with the definition of low carb vs. no carb. Also, can you share how much fiber you get into your daily diet? I know that people with IBS swear by Atkins type diets but it’s because the lower fiber and it appears that the lower carbs generally don’t inflame that condition.
How many grams of protein do you get in a day? I know like the Zone has a 40-30-30 type of a ratio. That seems entirely appropriate as an eating plan.
I don’t know if my father got an old book on Atkins or not, but I remember (it could have been the induction period) he couldn’t eat too many veggies and fruits. I will never forget the time that we went to a buffet type of a restaurant because that had the widest variety of food choices to support all of our eating styles. What he chooses was ground beef with cheese sauce, light on the broccoli, and a small salad. He kept saying, “I can’t have this or that, too many carbs.” Then his wife would count his carbs for him every time he’d bring something back. Married life … isn’t it bliss? Me, I had a HUGE salad with all the fixins’ plus the real dressing.
We got into a discussion about beans that night and they both were telling that beans is a big no no, too many carbs. I just thought to myself, “Ok, there went ½ of my diet.” Do you eat beans on the plan that you’re on? How much or how often? I have also hear that you can adjust your carbs by subtracting out the fiber grams from the carb grams and go with that number. Do you do that on your plan? Did you do an induction type of thing?
Thanks.
Keta.
[link:home.attbi.com/~marwrihu/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html|Home Page]
[link:mykbtfit.net/|KBT Forum]
Cynthia,
At the risk of beating a dead horse, again I will state that I have more than a rudimentary understanding of low carb diets. Not to be mean, but maybe it's YOUR understanding of a low carb diet that's off. Sounds to me, based on your description, that your eating plan includes more than the 100 grams of carbs typically considered to be a true low carb diet.
And, for the record, I am in favor of the increased protein content recommendations made by several organizations for very active people--.8-1.0 grams of protein per pound of body weight per day. But, when calculated by percentages, this usually means that protein constitutes 25% of the diet, fat 20% of the diet and carbohydrates 55% of the diet.
I think Atkins is fine for inactive people whose primary interest is in seeing the numbers on the scale go down and who love eating high fat, high protein foods. The weight loss is far from being all fat loss and the high fat content of the diet wreaks havoc on blood lipid numbers for people who have cholesterol and triglycerids problems. Research (and I will refer you to it) has shown the low carb plans, even those such as the Zone diets are detrimental for athletes and very physically active people from a physical performance standpoint.
Once again, I'm not trying to be mean, but when you reiterate that we most likely don't understand what low carb diets are, you are assuming, so maybe rethink that statement--exercise science and nutrition go hand in hand, and it happens to be my profession rather than a hobby.
Maribeth Salge, MA, PT, ATC, CSCS, RCEP, Certified Personal Trainer
At the risk of beating a dead horse, again I will state that I have more than a rudimentary understanding of low carb diets. Not to be mean, but maybe it's YOUR understanding of a low carb diet that's off. Sounds to me, based on your description, that your eating plan includes more than the 100 grams of carbs typically considered to be a true low carb diet.
And, for the record, I am in favor of the increased protein content recommendations made by several organizations for very active people--.8-1.0 grams of protein per pound of body weight per day. But, when calculated by percentages, this usually means that protein constitutes 25% of the diet, fat 20% of the diet and carbohydrates 55% of the diet.
I think Atkins is fine for inactive people whose primary interest is in seeing the numbers on the scale go down and who love eating high fat, high protein foods. The weight loss is far from being all fat loss and the high fat content of the diet wreaks havoc on blood lipid numbers for people who have cholesterol and triglycerids problems. Research (and I will refer you to it) has shown the low carb plans, even those such as the Zone diets are detrimental for athletes and very physically active people from a physical performance standpoint.
Once again, I'm not trying to be mean, but when you reiterate that we most likely don't understand what low carb diets are, you are assuming, so maybe rethink that statement--exercise science and nutrition go hand in hand, and it happens to be my profession rather than a hobby.
Maribeth Salge, MA, PT, ATC, CSCS, RCEP, Certified Personal Trainer
Cynthia8828
Cathlete
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Aug-27-02 AT 01:02PM (Est)[/font][p]Hello Meribeth:
Did you see my response as a personal attack? If so, I certainly did not intend that to be the case. Trust me when I say that my response did not have ONE bit of sarcasm intended. It is just that many times since I have started eating this way, people have told me that it is unhealthy and/or they couldn't do this because of the no fruit, veggies, or carbs thing, and I feel it is important to let people know that I AM eating fruit, veggies and carbs. That is all. Also, I find that people keep saying it is unhealthy, and I find that I eat healthier now then I ever did in the past. That is the only statement I was making. I know your position on lo-carb and I also know that you are EXTREMELY knowledgeable and I certainly would never attack your credentials. My point is, that for me, I appear to be on what would be considered a LO-carb diet, and I feel better then I ever did, and that's the truth. I also eat healthier, have more energy, and have lost a total of 13 pounds over the last 7 weeks. That's the only point I am trying to make.
God Bless,
Cynthia
P.S. Keta: When I come back I will fill you in with a response to your questions. I gotta go for now...
Did you see my response as a personal attack? If so, I certainly did not intend that to be the case. Trust me when I say that my response did not have ONE bit of sarcasm intended. It is just that many times since I have started eating this way, people have told me that it is unhealthy and/or they couldn't do this because of the no fruit, veggies, or carbs thing, and I feel it is important to let people know that I AM eating fruit, veggies and carbs. That is all. Also, I find that people keep saying it is unhealthy, and I find that I eat healthier now then I ever did in the past. That is the only statement I was making. I know your position on lo-carb and I also know that you are EXTREMELY knowledgeable and I certainly would never attack your credentials. My point is, that for me, I appear to be on what would be considered a LO-carb diet, and I feel better then I ever did, and that's the truth. I also eat healthier, have more energy, and have lost a total of 13 pounds over the last 7 weeks. That's the only point I am trying to make.
God Bless,
Cynthia
P.S. Keta: When I come back I will fill you in with a response to your questions. I gotta go for now...
JacquelynM
New Member
RE: UFO's, Big Foot and Low-Carb "Diets"
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Aug-27-02 AT 01:23PM (Est)[/font][p]Actually I do have that article ... I read it.
It has a certain spin on it. If focuses only on a couple of aspects. That is one thing that irritates me. You see, we humans for some reason need to focus on only a few things otherwise we get overloaded. Need more energy, take B12. Yes that's true, but you can easily overdose on B12 because it is a long lasting vitamin. If they would say, increase your metabolism, take B12 and we'd remember that.
Keta,
Sally Squires of The Washington Post also thought that NYT article had a certain spin on it. Here's her take on it (I think you will find it very interesting):
[link:www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A55532-2002Aug23?language=printer|Experts Declare Story Low on Saturated Facts]
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Aug-27-02 AT 01:23PM (Est)[/font][p]Actually I do have that article ... I read it.
It has a certain spin on it. If focuses only on a couple of aspects. That is one thing that irritates me. You see, we humans for some reason need to focus on only a few things otherwise we get overloaded. Need more energy, take B12. Yes that's true, but you can easily overdose on B12 because it is a long lasting vitamin. If they would say, increase your metabolism, take B12 and we'd remember that.
Keta,
Sally Squires of The Washington Post also thought that NYT article had a certain spin on it. Here's her take on it (I think you will find it very interesting):
[link:www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A55532-2002Aug23?language=printer|Experts Declare Story Low on Saturated Facts]
JacquelynM
New Member
RE: UFO's, Big Foot and Low-Carb "Diets"
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Aug-27-02 AT 01:25PM (Est)[/font][p]no message
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Aug-27-02 AT 01:25PM (Est)[/font][p]no message
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Aug-27-02 AT 01:21PM (Est)[/font][p]No, Cynthia, I didn't see your response as a personal attack, but rather as a naive statement--you can't assume that people who are against low carb diets haven't studied them in depth. And, if you are taking in more than about 400 calories' worth of carbs a day, your eating plan really isn't low carb.
That's great that you've been successful with weight loss--and your loss is a reasonable amount to lose, but I'm sure you know that all the weight hasn't been in the form of fat.
My goal with the posts is to provide information on the science behind exercise and nutrition so that people aren't taken in by "miracle diet" hucksters--of which the good Dr. Atkins has been a big one. It isn't carbs that make people fat--it is overconsumption of ANYTHING. If you take in more than you expend, whether it is in the form of cookies, a low carb eating plan, or fruits and veggins, you will gain body fat, period. There is no magic diet--it is calories in vs calories out.
No offense taken, none intended, but the science is what it is--unalterable.
Maribeth
That's great that you've been successful with weight loss--and your loss is a reasonable amount to lose, but I'm sure you know that all the weight hasn't been in the form of fat.
My goal with the posts is to provide information on the science behind exercise and nutrition so that people aren't taken in by "miracle diet" hucksters--of which the good Dr. Atkins has been a big one. It isn't carbs that make people fat--it is overconsumption of ANYTHING. If you take in more than you expend, whether it is in the form of cookies, a low carb eating plan, or fruits and veggins, you will gain body fat, period. There is no magic diet--it is calories in vs calories out.
No offense taken, none intended, but the science is what it is--unalterable.
Maribeth
For Maribeth
Maribeth, I am very interested in this thread because I have been researching the pros and cons of diets such as Atkins for my own use. I have read all your posts and respect your opinion.
Nancy324 referred to an article, “What If It’s All Been a Big Fat Lie” in the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/magazine/07FAT.html?pagewanted=print&position=top
Maribeth, this article made a big impression on me, as did articles and books I read by authors promoting a higher fat diet (like Atkins). You offered to show research that bolstered your arguments. I am hoping you will use that research to address quotes from several prominent sources in the NY Times article because I do admit I found it most convincing.
Eleftheria Maratos-Flier, director of obesity research at Harvard's Joslin Diabetes Center, is quoted as saying, “For a large percentage of the population, perhaps 30 to 40 percent, low-fat diets are counterproductive… They have the paradoxical effect of making people gain weight.''
Richard Veech, a National Institute of Health researcher who studied medicine at Harvard and then got his doctorate at Oxford University with the Nobel Laureate Hans Krebs. “Doctors are scared of ketosis… They're always worried about diabetic ketoacidosis. But ketosis is a normal physiologic state. I would argue it is the normal state of man. It's not normal to have McDonald's and a delicatessen around every corner. It's normal to starve.'' “Veech calls ketones 'magic' and has shown that both the heart and brain run 25 percent more efficiently on ketones than on blood sugar. “
“In the early 70's, J.P. Flatt and Harvard's George Blackburn pioneered the ''protein-sparing modified fast'' to treat postsurgical patients, and they tested it on obese volunteers. Blackburn, who later became president of the American Society of Clinical Nutrition, describes his regime as 'an Atkins diet without excess fat' and says he had to give it a fancy name or nobody would take him seriously. The diet was 'lean meat, fish and fowl' supplemented by vitamins and minerals. 'People loved it,' Blackburn recalls. 'Great weight loss. We couldn't run them off with a baseball bat.’ “
Taubes also cites the results of five studies, including one “led by Gary Foster at the University of Pennsylvania, Sam Klein, director of the Center for Human Nutrition at Washington University in St. Louis, and Jim Hill, who runs the University of Colorado Center for Human Nutrition in Denver. The results of all five of these studies are remarkably consistent. Subjects on some form of the Atkins diet -- whether overweight adolescents on the diet for 12 weeks as at Schneider, or obese adults averaging 295 pounds on the diet for six months, as at the Philadelphia V.A. -- lost twice the weight as the subjects on the low-fat, low-calorie diets.“ “In all five studies, cholesterol levels improved similarly with both diets, but triglyceride levels were considerably lower with the Atkins diet.”
David Ludwig, a researcher at Harvard Medical School who runs the pediatric obesity clinic at Children's Hospital Boston: ''Grain products and concentrated sugars were essentially absent from human nutrition until the invention of agriculture, 'which was only 10,000 years ago.''
Ludwig also wrote an article published in the Journal of the American Medical Association about what he calls "Endocrinology 101." Taubes summarizes from this article 'that we are simply hungrier than we were in the 70's, and the reason is physiological more than psychological. In this case, the salient factor -- ignored in the pursuit of fat and its effect on cholesterol -- is how carbohydrates affect blood sugar and insulin. In fact, these were obvious culprits all along, which is why Atkins and the low-carb-diet doctors pounced on them early."
Ludwig does not recommend the Atkins diet because he says he believes such a very low carbohydrate approach is unnecessarily restrictive; instead, he tells his patients to effectively replace refined carbohydrates and starches with vegetables, legumes and fruit.
Maribeth, I found this most interesting, since this is exactly the diet Atkins recommends after his dieters finish Induction and move on to a maintenance diet. In fact, (from what I’ve read) I do respectfully submit that you might be incorrect to say Cynthia isn’t doing real Atkins, because her consumption of brown rice and fruit is allowable on the maintenance diet. Again, I say this with the greatest of respect, because you are obviously well-educated on this subject and I may indeed be wrong.
But from what I’ve read, it all depends on a person’s tolerance for carbohydrates. Atkins allows as many good quality carbs as a person can take without them starting to gain weight again. For athletes and highly active people, this would of course mean they could consume more carbohydrates than sedentary individuals and therefore still be “doing Atkins” without it being detrimental to peak performance.
Regarding cholesterol, Taubes claims that the National Institute of Health used shoddy science when “they had failed to demonstrate at great expense that eating less fat had any health benefits. But if a cholesterol-lowering drug could prevent heart attacks, then a low-fat, cholesterol-lowering diet should do the same,” a hypothesis that fueled the “low-fat diet is good for you” campaign.
I realize you have a real life, Maribeth, and I have included many quotes. (I did cut several out to shorten this post!) Please answer at your convenience. I thank you for all your past and future input on this issue. And now, I will go back to lurkdom!
Maribeth, I am very interested in this thread because I have been researching the pros and cons of diets such as Atkins for my own use. I have read all your posts and respect your opinion.
Nancy324 referred to an article, “What If It’s All Been a Big Fat Lie” in the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/magazine/07FAT.html?pagewanted=print&position=top
Maribeth, this article made a big impression on me, as did articles and books I read by authors promoting a higher fat diet (like Atkins). You offered to show research that bolstered your arguments. I am hoping you will use that research to address quotes from several prominent sources in the NY Times article because I do admit I found it most convincing.
Eleftheria Maratos-Flier, director of obesity research at Harvard's Joslin Diabetes Center, is quoted as saying, “For a large percentage of the population, perhaps 30 to 40 percent, low-fat diets are counterproductive… They have the paradoxical effect of making people gain weight.''
Richard Veech, a National Institute of Health researcher who studied medicine at Harvard and then got his doctorate at Oxford University with the Nobel Laureate Hans Krebs. “Doctors are scared of ketosis… They're always worried about diabetic ketoacidosis. But ketosis is a normal physiologic state. I would argue it is the normal state of man. It's not normal to have McDonald's and a delicatessen around every corner. It's normal to starve.'' “Veech calls ketones 'magic' and has shown that both the heart and brain run 25 percent more efficiently on ketones than on blood sugar. “
“In the early 70's, J.P. Flatt and Harvard's George Blackburn pioneered the ''protein-sparing modified fast'' to treat postsurgical patients, and they tested it on obese volunteers. Blackburn, who later became president of the American Society of Clinical Nutrition, describes his regime as 'an Atkins diet without excess fat' and says he had to give it a fancy name or nobody would take him seriously. The diet was 'lean meat, fish and fowl' supplemented by vitamins and minerals. 'People loved it,' Blackburn recalls. 'Great weight loss. We couldn't run them off with a baseball bat.’ “
Taubes also cites the results of five studies, including one “led by Gary Foster at the University of Pennsylvania, Sam Klein, director of the Center for Human Nutrition at Washington University in St. Louis, and Jim Hill, who runs the University of Colorado Center for Human Nutrition in Denver. The results of all five of these studies are remarkably consistent. Subjects on some form of the Atkins diet -- whether overweight adolescents on the diet for 12 weeks as at Schneider, or obese adults averaging 295 pounds on the diet for six months, as at the Philadelphia V.A. -- lost twice the weight as the subjects on the low-fat, low-calorie diets.“ “In all five studies, cholesterol levels improved similarly with both diets, but triglyceride levels were considerably lower with the Atkins diet.”
David Ludwig, a researcher at Harvard Medical School who runs the pediatric obesity clinic at Children's Hospital Boston: ''Grain products and concentrated sugars were essentially absent from human nutrition until the invention of agriculture, 'which was only 10,000 years ago.''
Ludwig also wrote an article published in the Journal of the American Medical Association about what he calls "Endocrinology 101." Taubes summarizes from this article 'that we are simply hungrier than we were in the 70's, and the reason is physiological more than psychological. In this case, the salient factor -- ignored in the pursuit of fat and its effect on cholesterol -- is how carbohydrates affect blood sugar and insulin. In fact, these were obvious culprits all along, which is why Atkins and the low-carb-diet doctors pounced on them early."
Ludwig does not recommend the Atkins diet because he says he believes such a very low carbohydrate approach is unnecessarily restrictive; instead, he tells his patients to effectively replace refined carbohydrates and starches with vegetables, legumes and fruit.
Maribeth, I found this most interesting, since this is exactly the diet Atkins recommends after his dieters finish Induction and move on to a maintenance diet. In fact, (from what I’ve read) I do respectfully submit that you might be incorrect to say Cynthia isn’t doing real Atkins, because her consumption of brown rice and fruit is allowable on the maintenance diet. Again, I say this with the greatest of respect, because you are obviously well-educated on this subject and I may indeed be wrong.
But from what I’ve read, it all depends on a person’s tolerance for carbohydrates. Atkins allows as many good quality carbs as a person can take without them starting to gain weight again. For athletes and highly active people, this would of course mean they could consume more carbohydrates than sedentary individuals and therefore still be “doing Atkins” without it being detrimental to peak performance.
Regarding cholesterol, Taubes claims that the National Institute of Health used shoddy science when “they had failed to demonstrate at great expense that eating less fat had any health benefits. But if a cholesterol-lowering drug could prevent heart attacks, then a low-fat, cholesterol-lowering diet should do the same,” a hypothesis that fueled the “low-fat diet is good for you” campaign.
I realize you have a real life, Maribeth, and I have included many quotes. (I did cut several out to shorten this post!) Please answer at your convenience. I thank you for all your past and future input on this issue. And now, I will go back to lurkdom!
FitMom
Cathlete
Hi Cynthia,
I just wanted to offer you some support. I have been basically eating how you eat for about 3 weeks now. I eat lean meats (chicken, turkey and fish with lean beef occationally) and lots and lots of veggies and some yogurt a few times a week. I also add a few beans in with a salad sometimes. A couple of times a week I'll have some new potatoes but not often as I find myself feeling very bloated and uncomforable if I eat them more than that. Like you, I also feel better and am eating better than I ever have before.
After my baby was born, I put on 8 pounds! I am nursing her so that really surprised me to say the least. I tried watching the high fat foods and eating healthy whole grains etc.... I could not lose a single pound. Given that I was on bedrest before she was born, I had put on a lot of weight (fat!). After she was born, not a day went by that I didn't break down in tears because I could not stand being in my body. I hated how I felt (that is an understatment!). I never EVER want to feel that badly again. I decided to just concentrate on eating healthy proteins and getting my carbs from fruits and veggies. I have been amazed and how I have felt and that I've lost about 10 pounds. My son's birthday was this weekend. We had fried chicken, mashed potatoes, baked beans, biscuits etc... for dinner. I didn't deny myself anything but I did eat until I was satisfied. Of course we had cake and ice cream too. I was surprised to find that I only gained .5 pound the next morning (which is now gone). Sunday night, after his party, when I was driving my mother home I started to feel so bad! I got so sleepy that I had a VERY hard time not falling asleep while driving. Of course this scared me terribly since I had my two daughters with me as well. I felt awful yesterday too. Like I was in a comma all day.
I have a suggestion....maybe instead of saying you "lo carb" you might want to say that you eat mainly "whole foods". That probably would give a more accurate picture of how you eat. It's just an idea though. I do know that saying "lo carb" gives the picture of someone eating eggs with greasy bacon and dripping cheese or a big thick porterhouse with some kind of sauce on it. Even if you try to explain afterwards your idea of lo carbing, a lot of people will still be ready to attack and not listen. I personally think you are eating very healthy. Congratulation to you on your weight loss as well
I just wanted to offer you some support. I have been basically eating how you eat for about 3 weeks now. I eat lean meats (chicken, turkey and fish with lean beef occationally) and lots and lots of veggies and some yogurt a few times a week. I also add a few beans in with a salad sometimes. A couple of times a week I'll have some new potatoes but not often as I find myself feeling very bloated and uncomforable if I eat them more than that. Like you, I also feel better and am eating better than I ever have before.
After my baby was born, I put on 8 pounds! I am nursing her so that really surprised me to say the least. I tried watching the high fat foods and eating healthy whole grains etc.... I could not lose a single pound. Given that I was on bedrest before she was born, I had put on a lot of weight (fat!). After she was born, not a day went by that I didn't break down in tears because I could not stand being in my body. I hated how I felt (that is an understatment!). I never EVER want to feel that badly again. I decided to just concentrate on eating healthy proteins and getting my carbs from fruits and veggies. I have been amazed and how I have felt and that I've lost about 10 pounds. My son's birthday was this weekend. We had fried chicken, mashed potatoes, baked beans, biscuits etc... for dinner. I didn't deny myself anything but I did eat until I was satisfied. Of course we had cake and ice cream too. I was surprised to find that I only gained .5 pound the next morning (which is now gone). Sunday night, after his party, when I was driving my mother home I started to feel so bad! I got so sleepy that I had a VERY hard time not falling asleep while driving. Of course this scared me terribly since I had my two daughters with me as well. I felt awful yesterday too. Like I was in a comma all day.
I have a suggestion....maybe instead of saying you "lo carb" you might want to say that you eat mainly "whole foods". That probably would give a more accurate picture of how you eat. It's just an idea though. I do know that saying "lo carb" gives the picture of someone eating eggs with greasy bacon and dripping cheese or a big thick porterhouse with some kind of sauce on it. Even if you try to explain afterwards your idea of lo carbing, a lot of people will still be ready to attack and not listen. I personally think you are eating very healthy. Congratulation to you on your weight loss as well
:-jumpy Proud mommy to Zachary, Jillian and 5 month old Katie :-jumpy
Proud mommy to Zachary, Jillian and 5 month old Katie :-jumpyRE: For Maribeth
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Aug-27-02 AT 03:13PM (Est)[/font][p]B-Marie,
First of all, I didn't say ANYTHING about whether Cynthia is "doing a real Atkins diet"--I said she isn't following a true low carb diet if she is consuming more than 400 carb calories per day. I have also never said there aren't pros to high protein diets--check out my earlier posts. You're attributing things to me that I didn't post or say, or you're assuming to understand my position when you really don't.
As for refuting your sources, any "scientist" who claims that ketosis is "magic" is no scientist. There are very valid biochemical laws that dictate the usage of all nutrients and metabolic products, including ketones. There is no magic about it, period. Regardless of what Richard Veech says, accepted nutritional biochemistry states that the body's preferred fuel is glucose, not ketones. Yes, ketones can be utilized (by chemical reactions, BTW, not magic), but the body does not run solely nor primarily on ketones in a natural state. When excessive ketones are generated, the blood pH changes, resulting in an acidotic state, which can be life-threatening--ask anyone who survived a diabetic coma.
I have never said that blood sugar and insulin did not play a role in hunger--to the contrary, of course it does. But there are ways of manipulating dietary intake to control wild fluctuations in blood sugar without eating low carb. "Allowing" carbs without gaining weight? If you don't take in more than you expend, you won't gain weight, period--there is no negotiation of the first law of thermodynamics. If you eat only carbs and eat fewer than you expend, there will be no weight gain. The carb "allowance" alludes to the idea that if you eat more carbs than your body will tolerate, you gain weight. It's not the carbs, but the calories that cause the weight gain. It isn't some mystic cutoff point based on the carb intake, but a very matter of fact cutoff point based on caloric intake.
What some of these studies you quoted fail to indicate is whether the improved lipid profiles are the result of the specifics of diet or as a result of overall weight loss, since obesity has been positively correlated with increases in blood cholesterol and triglyceride levels. Losing excess weight has been shown in multiple studies to lower blood cholesterol and triglycerides, so ANY eating plan that results in a drop in body weight should improve blood fat numbers.
Do a Medline search--you will find plenty of research, including articles on the Zone Diet, Atkins, etc, in which these diets were found to be lacking when it comes to providing the nutrients needed by athletic populations. You will also find articles which will indicate that low fat eating DOES provide health benefits--try searching info from Dr. Dean Ornish.
Carbohydrates aren't the enemy. Neither is fat or protein. The enemy is the shysters who try to tell us that any food is bad. Fat is gained when calories in exceed the calories out. Low fat diets failed, not because eating low fat is a bad idea, but because people assumed that a low fat food could be eaten in unlimited quantities--wrong. Low fat doesn't necessarily mean low calorie, and even when low fat foods are low in calories, they still cannot be consumed in excess of the daily caloric need or excess body fat will result.
I did a post not too long ago on why the fad diets which are very high protein seem to cause more weight loss than lower protein diets of equal caloric content. It is based on the thermic effect of protein vs that of carbs or fat. Protein will require anywhere from 20-40% of its total caloric content to be expended in the digestion and storage process. Eating a high quantity of protein elevates metabolic rate more than eating carbs or fat--basic science, not the miracle of eating low carb or of ketosis. BTW, ketosis also results from the breakdown of ketogenic proteins, so to assume that ketosis=fat breakdown is quite erroneous.
In the meantime, eat low carb, eat high carb, eat no carb, eat whatever turns you on, but just don't try to make out any food as the bad guy when it comes to weight gain--it is simply a matter of expending more than you take in that keeps the pounds coming off safely and effectively.
Maribeth
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Aug-27-02 AT 03:13PM (Est)[/font][p]B-Marie,
First of all, I didn't say ANYTHING about whether Cynthia is "doing a real Atkins diet"--I said she isn't following a true low carb diet if she is consuming more than 400 carb calories per day. I have also never said there aren't pros to high protein diets--check out my earlier posts. You're attributing things to me that I didn't post or say, or you're assuming to understand my position when you really don't.
As for refuting your sources, any "scientist" who claims that ketosis is "magic" is no scientist. There are very valid biochemical laws that dictate the usage of all nutrients and metabolic products, including ketones. There is no magic about it, period. Regardless of what Richard Veech says, accepted nutritional biochemistry states that the body's preferred fuel is glucose, not ketones. Yes, ketones can be utilized (by chemical reactions, BTW, not magic), but the body does not run solely nor primarily on ketones in a natural state. When excessive ketones are generated, the blood pH changes, resulting in an acidotic state, which can be life-threatening--ask anyone who survived a diabetic coma.
I have never said that blood sugar and insulin did not play a role in hunger--to the contrary, of course it does. But there are ways of manipulating dietary intake to control wild fluctuations in blood sugar without eating low carb. "Allowing" carbs without gaining weight? If you don't take in more than you expend, you won't gain weight, period--there is no negotiation of the first law of thermodynamics. If you eat only carbs and eat fewer than you expend, there will be no weight gain. The carb "allowance" alludes to the idea that if you eat more carbs than your body will tolerate, you gain weight. It's not the carbs, but the calories that cause the weight gain. It isn't some mystic cutoff point based on the carb intake, but a very matter of fact cutoff point based on caloric intake.
What some of these studies you quoted fail to indicate is whether the improved lipid profiles are the result of the specifics of diet or as a result of overall weight loss, since obesity has been positively correlated with increases in blood cholesterol and triglyceride levels. Losing excess weight has been shown in multiple studies to lower blood cholesterol and triglycerides, so ANY eating plan that results in a drop in body weight should improve blood fat numbers.
Do a Medline search--you will find plenty of research, including articles on the Zone Diet, Atkins, etc, in which these diets were found to be lacking when it comes to providing the nutrients needed by athletic populations. You will also find articles which will indicate that low fat eating DOES provide health benefits--try searching info from Dr. Dean Ornish.
Carbohydrates aren't the enemy. Neither is fat or protein. The enemy is the shysters who try to tell us that any food is bad. Fat is gained when calories in exceed the calories out. Low fat diets failed, not because eating low fat is a bad idea, but because people assumed that a low fat food could be eaten in unlimited quantities--wrong. Low fat doesn't necessarily mean low calorie, and even when low fat foods are low in calories, they still cannot be consumed in excess of the daily caloric need or excess body fat will result.
I did a post not too long ago on why the fad diets which are very high protein seem to cause more weight loss than lower protein diets of equal caloric content. It is based on the thermic effect of protein vs that of carbs or fat. Protein will require anywhere from 20-40% of its total caloric content to be expended in the digestion and storage process. Eating a high quantity of protein elevates metabolic rate more than eating carbs or fat--basic science, not the miracle of eating low carb or of ketosis. BTW, ketosis also results from the breakdown of ketogenic proteins, so to assume that ketosis=fat breakdown is quite erroneous.
In the meantime, eat low carb, eat high carb, eat no carb, eat whatever turns you on, but just don't try to make out any food as the bad guy when it comes to weight gain--it is simply a matter of expending more than you take in that keeps the pounds coming off safely and effectively.
Maribeth
RE: For Maribeth
I just had to jump in here with a personal experience. I'vebeen counting calories for years with no success....1400 on the dot virtually every day. It wasnt until I balanced out my meals to 40/30/30, with the SAME amount of calories, 1400, that I lost weight. Nothing had changed except that I ate a little more protein and a little less carbs. To me, that says it works. And I think the 40/3/0/30 split (the "zone") is a healthy balance between hi carb and hi protein.
I just had to jump in here with a personal experience. I'vebeen counting calories for years with no success....1400 on the dot virtually every day. It wasnt until I balanced out my meals to 40/30/30, with the SAME amount of calories, 1400, that I lost weight. Nothing had changed except that I ate a little more protein and a little less carbs. To me, that says it works. And I think the 40/3/0/30 split (the "zone") is a healthy balance between hi carb and hi protein.
JacquelynM
New Member
Magic Ketones ;^)
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Aug-27-02 AT 04:24PM (Est)[/font][p]I'm with you, Maribeth -- I thought that "magic" ketones reference was truly bizarre when I first read the Times article, but maybe we shouldn't ridicule Richard Veech as he may have been quoted out of context. I posted this Washington Post article above ([link:www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55532-2002Aug23.html|Experts Declare Story Low on Saturated Facts]) which shows how the author of the Times article misrepresented some of the information he obtained from the experts he interviewed. He also is accused of omitting studies which contradict his thesis. Anyone who reads the New York Times article should also read this article to get a balanced perspective.
Edited to say: My understanding is that the studies that purport to show that the heart and brain perform more efficiently burning ketones than glucose were done in test tubes. The scientists incubated either brain cells or cardiac cells in tubes with either ketones or glucose and then measured their activity. However, you have to keep in mind that what happens to isolated cells in a test tube may or may not accurately reflect what happens to entire organs in the complex of the human body.
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Aug-27-02 AT 04:24PM (Est)[/font][p]I'm with you, Maribeth -- I thought that "magic" ketones reference was truly bizarre when I first read the Times article, but maybe we shouldn't ridicule Richard Veech as he may have been quoted out of context. I posted this Washington Post article above ([link:www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55532-2002Aug23.html|Experts Declare Story Low on Saturated Facts]) which shows how the author of the Times article misrepresented some of the information he obtained from the experts he interviewed. He also is accused of omitting studies which contradict his thesis. Anyone who reads the New York Times article should also read this article to get a balanced perspective.
Edited to say: My understanding is that the studies that purport to show that the heart and brain perform more efficiently burning ketones than glucose were done in test tubes. The scientists incubated either brain cells or cardiac cells in tubes with either ketones or glucose and then measured their activity. However, you have to keep in mind that what happens to isolated cells in a test tube may or may not accurately reflect what happens to entire organs in the complex of the human body.
RE: For Maribeth
Easy answer as to why the exact number of calories yielded weight loss when you increased your protein content--the thermic effect of protein. It isn't magic--it's CALORIES!
I'm starting a new thread now on the up side of higher protein consumption, and I'll explain the thermic effect.
I do hope you realize that 1400 calories per day for an active person is quite low.
Maribeth
Easy answer as to why the exact number of calories yielded weight loss when you increased your protein content--the thermic effect of protein. It isn't magic--it's CALORIES!
I'm starting a new thread now on the up side of higher protein consumption, and I'll explain the thermic effect.
I do hope you realize that 1400 calories per day for an active person is quite low.
Maribeth
RE: Magic Ketones ;^)
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Aug-28-02 AT 07:57AM (Est)[/font][p]Maribeth, I KNOW that 1400 is low but every single time I have gone higher (say 1600 or more) I gain. I'm giving myself one last year to attempt to lose 15 lbs ( I am currently 140-145ish, 19% bodyfat). If you've got any other ideas PLEASE tell me! I'm open to anything at this point!
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Aug-28-02 AT 07:57AM (Est)[/font][p]Maribeth, I KNOW that 1400 is low but every single time I have gone higher (say 1600 or more) I gain. I'm giving myself one last year to attempt to lose 15 lbs ( I am currently 140-145ish, 19% bodyfat). If you've got any other ideas PLEASE tell me! I'm open to anything at this point!
RE: Magic Ketones ;^)
Maribeth, I KNOW that 1400 is low but every single time I have gone higher (say 1600 or more) I gain. I'm giving myself one last year to attempt to lose 15 lbs ( I am currently 140-145ish, 19% bodyfat). If you've got any other ideas PLEASE tell me! I'm open to anything at this point! I do one hour of cardio a day (a CTX portion and then a 30-60 min walk) and then the CTX weight portions. Also open to any critiques on that rotation.
Maribeth, I KNOW that 1400 is low but every single time I have gone higher (say 1600 or more) I gain. I'm giving myself one last year to attempt to lose 15 lbs ( I am currently 140-145ish, 19% bodyfat). If you've got any other ideas PLEASE tell me! I'm open to anything at this point! I do one hour of cardio a day (a CTX portion and then a 30-60 min walk) and then the CTX weight portions. Also open to any critiques on that rotation.