another protein question....sorry in advance!

punka274

punka274

Cathlete
So,I've went though the threads and I just can't find an answer to my question....How do you know you need a protein supplement?

Does it really help?

At the end of the day I do feel just "drained".I eat a healthy diet and try to stay as clean as possible.I started Cathe's Begginer rotation last week!

I want to lose weight and gain muscle in the process!

just not sure if I need a protein powder or not!

Any advice will be greatly appreciated!

Amy:)
 
Amy,
I started drinking protein shakes because in analyzing my diet, I noticed that I was not getting enough protein -- sometimes my daily intake was as low as 13%. I am striving for more of a 40-30-30 balance, so the protein shakes are a good way for me to achieve that.

Cathy :)
 
I use egg white protein mix because I noticed that I was not getting enough protein. I usually try for 40-35-25 split (protein-carb-fat)in my diet and it seems to be working.
 
Just so you know, it's very difficult to lose weight AND gain muscle at the same time. The things you need to do to lose weight are generally speaking counter-productive to gaining muscle. You'd be better off trying to lose your weight first, then concentrating more on muscle building:)
 
Thanks ladies,and thanks shelly for pointing that out,I'll concentrate on losing my weight first!

Amy
 
Feeling 'drained' might be a lack of carbohydrates rather than protein. (Very few Americans eat "too little" protein, and many eat "too much" for health). A good range of protein is 12-20%. Some people need more, and one needs more when healing or building muscle, but not as much as many people tout, especially in bodybuilding circles.
 
Shelley,
I have heard that elsewhere, but lately, folks here have posted about getting better results with more weights and less cardio. I *thought* they were referring to slimming down, or am I mistaken?

Thanks for any feedback!
Cathy :)

>Just so you know, it's very difficult to lose weight AND gain
>muscle at the same time. The things you need to do to lose
>weight are generally speaking counter-productive to gaining
>muscle. You'd be better off trying to lose your weight first,
>then concentrating more on muscle building:)
>
 
Kathryn,
Really?? Wow. Where did I get the 40-30-30 recommendation from? I remember hearing it often in running circles/magazines some years ago, and it's always stuck with me that that was the "ideal" balance. Can you recommend any online resources supporting the ranges you mentioned? I'd like to read more about it.

Thanks!
Cathy :)

>Feeling 'drained' might be a lack of carbohydrates rather
>than protein. (Very few Americans eat "too little" protein,
>and many eat "too much" for health). A good range of protein
>is 12-20%. Some people need more, and one needs more when
>healing or building muscle, but not as much as many people
>tout, especially in bodybuilding circles.
 
>Kathryn,
>Really?? Wow. Where did I get the 40-30-30 recommendation
>from? I remember hearing it often in running
>circles/magazines some years ago, and it's always stuck with
>me that that was the "ideal" balance.

It comes from Barry Sear's "Zone Diet."
(Many of the 40-30-30 recommendations come from magazines that sell protein supplements, not from 'health' focused sources. Something to think about.)

From Andrew Weil's site: http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/id/ART02705
"Make protein easy. You need only 10 to 20 percent of calories from protein each day—a modest amount. Even though protein such as meat has high status in our society, said Dr. Weil, there’s no advantage to eating more of it. “Protein puts a great workload on the body, which the burning of fat and carbohydrate do not,” he said."


Here's another source (10-15%): http://www.indoorclimbing.com/Protein_Requirement.html
And from there: "Minimum Daily Protein Requirement: W.H.O. recommends 0.45 grams of protein per kilogram of ideal body weight per day.
Maximum Daily Protein Requirement: US RDA recommends 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of ideal body weight per day. The UK Department of Health and Social Security is approximately the same."

Note that 1 km - 2.2 pounds.

I think the WHO recommendations are usually more reasonable that US recommendations, because they aren't influenced as much by commercial interests. Also, the US recommendations have a large safety margin built in.

Here's a quote from http://www.annecollins.com/protein-diet.htm
"World Health Organization (WHO) Guidelines on Protein and Diet
The US RDA protein diet standards may be overestimated. The WHO Organization more conservatively puts our dietary protein needs at about half of the U.S. government minimum levels, or 0.45 grams of protein per kilogram of ideal body weight. Although differing weight standards and food sources of protein may apply."

Here's a short blurb (with lots of extraneous ads and such also on the site, so hard to follow the article in points!)from the same site:
http://www.annecollins.com/protein-needs-diet.htm

The American Dietetic Association (the group of registered dieticians) used to have a site where it was much easier to find info, and they usually recommended about 15% of calories from protein. I've been searching for this info, which I've seen before, but for the life of me, I can't find it!

Other sites (I haven't taken the time to read these all over, but I tried to choose those that have references):
http://www.notmilk.com/protein.html
http://www.exrx.net/Nutrition/Protein.html
http://www.new-fitness.com/nutrition/protein.html
(Seems like many of these sites are vegetarian/vegan info, which actually not what I was searching, but that's what comes up in searches for discussions on protein).

Joel Fuhrman, Neal Barnard, T.Collin Campbell, Dean Ornish, John McDougall and others recommend around 10%-15% of calories from protein. Fuhrman has a newsletter on his website that has some good info on protein, but I can't cut-and-paste segments of it, as it's accessible only to registered members, which I am.

This will get you off to a start, at least!
 
Ugh - the Zone. I hadn't realized the association - as I said, I'd only gone by things I'd read in magazines like Runner's World, Running Times & some others - BUT this was about 10 years ago, so I'm sure conventional wisdom has seen some changes since then!

Thank you SO much for all the links...I will check them all out this weekend and re-evaluate my habits/practices.

Cathy :)
 
Get a copy of Oxygen Magazine, it is the best! It recommends you eat your body weight in protein a day and that is what I do. I have noticed a big difference in my muscle gains since I started paying attention to my protein intake. I'll have to post new pics so people believe me. I eat carbs as well but it's usually whole grains, veggies and fruit. As far as weight loss goes, you need to gain muscle not just lose weight. To say don't worry about your muscle until you lose weight is asinine. The more muscle you have the faster you will lose weight overall. Search FitnessFreak366 in the forum, she has a lot of good advice and she looks great too!

Nicole

Those who do not find time for exercise will have to find time for illness.
-Earl of Derby-

http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?uid=7738930
 
I would recommend NOT getting your nutrition advice from a magazine. Kathryn posted some great sites and sources to support her point. If I were you, I'd consider credible sources before trusting magazines. Excess protein in a diet can be dangerous.

Although it is important to weight train, you should only work to gain mass/muscle if that is your goal. You can work on endurance and do occasional strength training workouts and still get health benefits of resistance training. Having more muscle mass will burn more calories, but not as many as once thought. New evidence shows that having more muscle mass only burns about 10 more calories as day (don't quote me on that number, but from what I remember it was a negligible amount). Here's an article I found on the subject that seemed pretty credible. It does quote some studies:

www.thefactsaboutfitness.com/news/cals.htm

As a side note, I don't think anyone said not to worry about weight training until the weight is lost. I believe the poster suggested that if your focus is to lose weight, cardio must be emphasized. Weight training on it's own will NOT help you lose the weight like a good diet and cardio can do. That's not to say you should drop the weight training. Just focus on endurance work and cardio while you're in the weight loss phase.

Carolyn
 
>I would recommend NOT getting your nutrition advice from a
>magazine. Kathryn posted some great sites and sources to
>support her point. If I were you, I'd consider credible
>sources before trusting magazines. Excess protein in a diet
>can be dangerous.
>
>Although it is important to weight train, you should only work
>to gain mass/muscle if that is your goal. You can work on
>endurance and do occasional strength training workouts and
>still get health benefits of resistance training. Having more
>muscle mass will burn more calories, but not as many as once
>thought. New evidence shows that having more muscle mass only
>burns about 10 more calories as day (don't quote me on that
>number, but from what I remember it was a negligible amount).
>Here's an article I found on the subject that seemed pretty
>credible. It does quote some studies:
>
>www.thefactsaboutfitness.com/news/cals.htm
>
>As a side note, I don't think anyone said not to worry about
>weight training until the weight is lost. I believe the poster
>suggested that if your focus is to lose weight, cardio must be
>emphasized. Weight training on it's own will NOT help you lose
>the weight like a good diet and cardio can do. That's not to
>say you should drop the weight training. Just focus on
>endurance work and cardio while you're in the weight loss
>phase.
>
>Carolyn

That is exactly what Shelley said. Also, I didn't say to get all your diet advice from a magazine, I said to look at in regards to strength training vs. the large emphasis on cardio. This publication is put out by Robert Kennedy and is very informative. He also is the publisher of the new Eat Clean Diet by Tosca Reno. That said, I think cardio is very important, I do it 3x a week for 90 min., but I think weight training is just as important. As a side note I just lost 45 lbs. and have a totally different physique than I did before I had my kids and I know it's because of the weight training. Increase the amount of muscle in your body. For every extra pound of muscle you put on or convert from fat, your body uses around 50 extra calories a day.

Nicole

Those who do not find time for exercise will have to find time for illness.
-Earl of Derby-

http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?uid=7738930
 
>> For every extra
>pound of muscle you put on or convert from fat, your body uses
>around 50 extra calories a day.

That information has been disputed, and nowdays, most experts says it's actually much less than 50 extra calories a day (as Carolyn mentioned: check out the article she links to). Also, your body doesn't 'convert muscle from fat,' if you mean that it 'changes fat into muscle'(which is what the term sounds like). You can lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, but they are two completely different substances and one doesn't change into the other.
 
>That is exactly what Shelley said.

As a side note I just lost 45
>lbs. and have a totally different physique than I did before I
>had my kids and I know it's because of the weight training.
>Increase the amount of muscle in your body. For every extra
>pound of muscle you put on or convert from fat, your body uses
>around 50 extra calories a day.
>
Hi Nicole. You can't 'convert' one form of tissue to another. In other words, you can't convert muscle to fat and vice versa. I read your articles and agree with everything that was said about weight training, except the part about muscle burning extra calories. That article was from 2005, so maybe it was published before that myth was debunked. Also, to lose weight one must create a calorie deficit, either through exercise and/or diet. One burns more calories when the heart rate is raised over a long period of time and that is best accomplished through cardio. Also, if the body were to burn an extra 50 calories a day, it's really a negligible amount that probably wouldn't make that much of a difference.
I think this was Shelly's point. Doing lots of cardio makes it very difficult if not impossible to gain muscle mass. That's why body builders must rest between each set. They want to keep their heart rate down so the body doesn't burn muscle for energy. This maximizes the opportunity for gaining mass. So, if your goal is to gain mass, you must cut down on the cardio. If your goal is to lose weight, you must kick up the cardio. If you want both, it's best to FOCUS on cardio and once the extra weight is lost, you then focus on mass building. You cannot build a lot of mass while doing a lot of cardio. It just isn't physically possible (unless you're natural build is muscular).

That being said, I agree with you that weight training is just as important as cardio, depending on your goals. I would never have a client just focus on cardio or strength. They both play an important role. I think we agree on this point.

Carolyn
 
This discussion has been eye-opening & helpful.

Amy, I hope you don't consider this a hijack. I felt it'd be OK to ask b/c it sounds like you and I have similar goals. I need to lose more fat (in my case, roughly 20 lbs., I'd say).

Kathryn & Carolyn, do you think that might be best achieved with, say, 5 days of cardio and 3 strength? With regard to weights, should I avoid Gym Styles and Slow & Heavy in favor of something like ME or perhaps circuit workouts?

Thanks~
Cathy :)
 
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