A request re: our group behavior

TarHeelMom

TarHeelMom

Cathlete
There has been an ongoing thread in the Video forum this week that has disintegrated into some very hurt feelings, and over the past two or three months I've noticed several other threads where the same sort of eruptions and "flames" have taken place. I have hesitated for a while before writing this post, but as a Cathe-ite who's been enjoying these forums for eight years I've just reached the point where I'm going to take the risk of being flamed myself, and say what's on my mind.

It distresses me deeply to see this kind of increasingly common personal dissent among our members, especially among people who I've grown to know and like personally through other correspondence. I really don't mean to sound like a sap or a preacher here, ladies and gentlemen, but I would love it if we'd all take a deep breath before posting and remember that we ARE ladies and gentlemen and we are "houseguests" on Cathe's site. Through the setup of these forums Cathe has given us leeway to discuss almost anything we want to discuss. That's a wonderful privilege and in return for PAYING for this freebie for us, Cathe has gently and nicely asked us (several times) JUST to mind a few basic manners in our postings. Why should we EVER do otherwise? Why should Cathe even have to ask? I agree that we're each entitled to an opinion, but I would hope that, frankly, if we're behaving AT LEAST the way we'd expect our own children to behave, we could post here about even extreme differences in opinion without fear of offending anyone or of being flamed in response.

The key thing is choice of language, folks. It is really just that simple.

Please remember when you post that you have no control over how another person may perceive what you've written. So if you re-read it before hitting "POST MESSAGE" (and you always should do that, IMHO) and you think your words OR EVEN YOUR TOPIC could possibly come across as combative, hurtful to anyone, rude, tacky or in some other way inappropriate, please edit or even abandon your message.

The same thing goes for responding to a post. If you feel that a poster has "crossed the line" in some way, privately notify Chris or Cathe and request that they examine the post and perhaps delete it. Or, if you simply must reply, why not just write an even-handed reply that states -- just states, without emotion -- your difference of opinion. E.g., "Bill, I appreciate your opinion and this is an interesting topic. I feel differently."

I cannot imagine any circumstance under which it would ever be necessary or even appropriate to get argumentative or confrontational on these forums. We aren't here to persuade each other, folks. This isn't politics or religion. We're just here to observe, comment, ask questions, voice ideas, and enjoy a civilized dialogue about fitness and wellness.

That's the way Cathe has always, always, always conducted herself here, and I feel strongly that we owe it to her, to ourselves and to plain basic human decency to behave the same way. And you know what? When we behave badly on Cathe's forums, we risk damaging the reputation of this online community which bears Cathe's name. Let's PLEASE try to remember that, and make these forums a place where the discussion is open, friendly, welcoming, intelligent and civilized, like Cathe.

Thanks for hearing me out, everyone!

http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/sport/sport-smiley-003.gif Kathy S. http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/spezial/spudniks/spudniklifter.gif
 
Hi Kathy, I undestnad where you might be coming from if I had a few examples. I'm sorry, I'm just confused right now, I must not be reading the coreect posts because I really don't see any of us on this sight, at least lately, saying anything rude to eachother. Maybe I'm wrong, like I said I might just be missing the posts. I know that there was a time when people where getting out of control, but now I just don't see it. Am I wrong? I might be, I really don't know.
I really do like you Kathy, I respect your posts, and I respect his one too. I am just confused, I hope you understand. I don't read all of the posts, so I might be missing something. I'm good like that. I tend to avoid the posts that look like I might get fired up if I read them. And if I read a post where I do get fired up I just leave it alone and leave the forum to try to forget what I just read.
Anyway, i'm not taking this personally, I was just curious if there really was anyone out there that had been rather rude lately. Because, like I said, I just haven't seen it, lately.
Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Kathy
 
Hi Kathy02!

I really appreciate what you're saying, and I sure hope my post doesn't ignite anything -- wouldn't that be ironic? I know that part of what I was referring to were a series of posts that happened before the holidays, and I also remember a flame war in the early autumn. The latest one is just a few days old. I'm not saying these things happen all the time -- they seem to come in little bursts. You said "I tend to avoid the posts that look like I might get fired up if I read them. And if I read a post where I do get fired up I just leave it alone and leave the forum to try to forget what I just read." -- I do exactly the same. So for all I know, in terms of percentages of "good threads" versus "threads gone bad", we could be the champion of all online communities. But it doesn't feel like that to me and I've become (obviously) frustrated about it -- it seems to me that we aren't learning how to keep hurtful, angry or otherwise inappropriate stuff out of our discussions, and I don't see why we can't clean up our act. Maybe I'm being idealistic or naive or both. Certainly my kids accuse me of both all the time. :) I posted today because this latest flame eruption made me very sad and sort of pushed me over the top, and I felt ready -- actually, I felt compelled -- to finally say something. I really don't mean to be soapbox-y or holier-than-thou at all. My intention is simply to remind everyone that we all know how to be well-mannered and kind, and to ask that we all try to act that way.

Again, Kathy, thanks very much for voicing your thoughts -- they have helped me clarify mine, I think, and maybe my original post will be easier for people to understand! :)

http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/sport/sport-smiley-003.gif Kathy S. http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/spezial/spudniks/spudniklifter.gif
 
Hi Kathy-Mamma-Hen!!!!!

(I'm being affectionate towards you, hope you can tell ;-) )

I just read a mini flame war on another thread here, regarding lack of crew happiness and the like, and so I think I know where you are coming from.

It hurts to see individuals we have grown to know and respect and whose posts we look forward to for their infectious good humour and infinite wisdom, suddenly unable to understand eachother and saying things they shouldn't. But, I think we are all saddened by this, and all guilty of it at some time or other. A "pure post" does not really exist.

I am sure too, that with very few exceptions, i.e. in the case of genuine trolls whose accounts have been officially closed down by SNM, people involved in flame wars regret later what they have said on the spur of the moment. I know I have said things that later I wish I hadn't, or had worded differently. But that's also the nature of language: no-one can control meaning. You could spend hours crafting your post: someone could still potentially take offence. It's language: there's no cure for it, thank God.

But I also think this is human nature. We err, all the time, and hopefully sometimes we learn. Don't give up on us just yet! We all make these mistakes and we all need to forgive eachother. After all, I have no idea what was happening in the lives of the people involved in the most recent "pointed discussion" I have just read. Both of the ladies involved are sharp, intelligent, witty, busy, stressed, keen to help, enthusiastic and passionate. Therefore a turn for the worst in a public disagreement is going to happen. Let it happen, and then we all move on.

We need polemic and argument, because difference of opinion creates new ideas. Our posts here at Cathe's forums create perspective on a complex and ever changing world. You only ever get agreement where people have been politically brainwashed, lobotomised, or paid off. Cathe can handle disagreement on her site. As a human in this world, I would hope she can. And I never forget either that we don't owe her so much. This forum place provides the existence for a symbiotic relationship: we get a space in which to chat and learn and meet a whole bunch of worthy people dedicated to fitness and life as we are, and Cathe has us do a lot of business for her as we discuss, promote, advertise and purchase her workouts. Her website pays her back in dividends.

I think this is a great place, and so is everyone who posts here. Here's to keeping disagreement alive.

Clare
 
Oh! I never read all of the posts on the "is the crew happy" post. I get it now. Sorry I was so confused.

Kathy
 
Well said, Kathy S.

There are a couple issues that concern me. First, I have learned since participating in this and a couple other forums that people in general forget how inadequate the printed word alone can be. What comes across in print might be nothing like what the poster intended. I'm sure that if some of these unpleasant exchanges had occurred in person the two parties would have seen non-threatening body language, heard non-accusatory tone of voice, etc. What concerns me about this and its prevalance in the world at large is that folks are so ready to go to war rather than give each other the benefit of the doubt.

Secondly, Cathe is growing bigtime. Many more folks are going to be around along with many more opinions. Let's set an example now of how we want our cyber community to evolve with Cathe's growth. I love it when we have a thread with many differing and strongly expressed opinions and yet we remain good-humored. That seems to happen the majority of the time. Let's continue to honor and cultivate that.

That's my peacemaker diatribe.

--Ann
 
I agree with what Kathy has posted but I also believe we need a little more of a thick skin too. Sensitivity is ok but oversensitivity is not. And I have seen instances of people going ballistic in here over people just stating opinions. Some people are blunt, and to the point. There's a difference between being ignorant and being to the point. I personally like bluntness. It eliminates all of the flowery BS that usually surrounds an overworded and "trying to please everybody" post.
Lighten up!
Trevor :)
 
See, this is a NICE disagreement thread ! ;-)

I am really enjoying reading all this feedback (and learning a lot from it, too -- sincere thanks to all of you for very thought-provoking posts). It struck me that your responses are exactly what I LIKE to see and was struggling to describe to you guys -- differing opinions expressed very eloquently but nicely. Trevor my hunky pal, I love your posts because you're always blunt, but you're always nice about the way you're blunt. Short, sweet and to the point nicely (I get to the point and I do it sweetly, but short is definitely not my longsuit, I would say. :))

The point of common agreement here is politeness and some measure of kindness in how we choose our words. If we are all in agreement on that, I am one happy clam!

http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/sport/sport-smiley-003.gif Kathy S. http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/spezial/spudniks/spudniklifter.gif
 
RE: See, this is a NICE disagreement thread ! ;-)

I normally avoid this kind of discussion like extra sour cream on a burrito (to use a nutritional example) but I want to agree wholeheartedly with Trevor. I think it's often the case that people overreact to a post. When this happens to me, I just ignore it. If I was clear and respectful and someone gets offended, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to get defensive about it. "Everyone has a right to their stupid opinion!" Including me.

I think that especially in a written-only format, it is almost inevitable that perfectly good and well-meaning people will occasionally misunderstand or take offense. So be it. I certainly can accept that and don't need to have everything become super-sweetie nicey-nicey so no one can disagree either. It's just the risk we all take by posting.

Maybe I shouldn't even ask, but who cares if you get flamed? As long as you know you were just clearly and respectfully stating your opinion, let 'em flame their pants off! After all, what are they gonna do? Stare at your message threateningly on their monitors 1200 miles away?

I am sad when things get "ugly", but please let's not be afraid to disagree. Conflict and disagreement are often opportunities for learning and growth.

Liane
 
RE: See, this is a NICE disagreement thread ! ;-)

I agree with everything you said. I always stay out of the wars, but I should add that unfortunately, this board already has a reputation for inciting a riot when certain posts are not in praise of Cathe. And it's too bad. Because I get some of my best fitness advice from the intelligent crowd on this board!
 
RE: See, this is a NICE disagreement thread ! ;-)

One part of my brain actually said, "Don't go there, Bobbi" because I am afraid that we must agree to disagree, dear Kathy.

I responded to the "Crew" post and I feel I was neither negative nor a flamer although I was construed as such. However, I reiterate what I said there. Disagreements are part of life. Truth is utterly subjective and until everyone agrees on everything, conflict will arise. I think that I choose my words as carefully when I disent as when I agree. I am sure some would agree with that and others won't. But there's that statment on the page. Someone might say I am a wolf in sheep's clothing; someone else a lamb! :) But I reserve the right to disagree. I may not agree with what you say but I will defend your right to say it.

The flame wars here are pretty mild stuff compared to what you catch on the 10 o'clock news and they never result in bloodshed. My thought is that any time you hit that post button, even if you think you have just stated the most innocuous thing , you run the risk of getting a negative response. And when we are expressing our opinions in a strictly speculative manner as in the case of trying to guess what's in the minds of the crew, it's even more likely someone will take exception to that. Or someone will add their opinion and it will be constured as taking exception. We are arguing semantics. And there's the rub! Disent happens. And it would be boring if we all agreed al the time! One must take the bitter with the better as the saying goes. Have an opinion and express it and you may inflame someone. If not taken too seriously, it can be fun and harmless to disagree. Keep it in perspective. We are all so different physically and emotionally, it's just not possible to NEVER dispute.

I don't think of myself as thick-skinned but I am certainly unafraid of disagreeing with someone. I disagree with things I see in print or on the television all the time. The forums are unique in that they are interactive so we can express our disent to each other and that's tricky. As I see it, the problem isn't the disagreements but seeing them WW III. :)

I have grown to love many of you very deeply but in a way that cannot be as intimate as if we were physically together. Therefore, I might be shocked or ticked or dismayed or overjoyed by something you say but it's not going to have as much impact as the things that go on in my "real" life. And I do have one! :)

So keep it in perspective!

There's a part of me that wants to apolgize for being so darned opinionated but that's just a part of me that goes every other facet of my personality and without it and the inclination to disagree at times, you won't be getting me! Big mouth and all!



Bobbi "Chick's rule!" http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/chicken.gif
 
RE: See, this is a NICE disagreement thread ! ;-)

I just now read all the posts on that thread. Bobbi you have nothing to apologize about. I think the reason the thread took a bad turn was because we were all giving our opinion on a certain subject and then one poster not only gave an opinion on the subject, but an opinion on the rest of us doing the posting. I have had this happen to me on several occasions. I express my opinion about the subject of a thread. Later on down the line I notice that someone expressed their opinion about me instead of the topic of the thread.
 
RE: See, this is a NICE disagreement thread ! ;-)

Hello there. Well, I don't know if this goes along with what you are saying or not, but I have not posted in quite a long time. As much as I love Cathe, most the people on the boards, etc., I found that sometimes when I did post, there were a few people who responded that truly rubbed me the wrong way, or thought they knew it all, when they really didn't put themselves in your circumstances, etc. So I think what you are saying is really right on. There are many great people on these boards that I truly love and respect, but because some people might not realize how they write things, kept me from wanting to participate. Thanks for your thread Kathy!!

Kim
 
Bobbi dear girl!

I'm not sure we're really disagreeing, but if we are, that's okay because so far it's fun. :) Don't change a thing about yourself. You're feisty, blunt, funny, fearless and intelligent. All great things.

I never intended to suggest (see, perceptions?) that we members shouldn't or couldn't disagree with each other. My sole point, not to belabor it, was a plea for us to think twice before posting to make sure that, as much as humanly possible, we'd made our post civilized and at least not intentionally hurtful or inappropriate. And the flip side of the same coin is that if we're responding to a post, to think twice about how we're reacting and what we're saying in our response. Examining our own reactions and choosing our words with care, knowing that our facial expressions and body language and all those other interpretive factors won't be seen. That's all!


http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/sport/sport-smiley-003.gif Kathy S. http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/spezial/spudniks/spudniklifter.gif
 
RE: Bobbi dear girl!

I forget if it was you Bobbi or Jillybean.. but I LOVED the way you difused the thread on the desire for new sets.. into a desire for hot young built men!!! THat was awesome - kept me laughing and a great idea too ;)
 
RE: Bobbi dear girl!

You are absolutely right, Kathy and when I think about it, I tend to get embroiled in these negative threads when I am grumpy because when I am not, my sense of humor kicks in and I don't feel compelled to jump in and grouse. http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/wave.gif

Or as I like to say, get in touch with my inner witch and let her fly! http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/tales/heks.gif

When that's the case, my husband always says, "You feeling froggy, leap!" http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/boldblue.gif

And then I know I may be getting a little too frisky! http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/bounce/bluegrab.gif

Of course, I can take HIM any day!

As long as everyone knows I can put Linda Blair in the exorcist to shame, I don't really need to show it!
Bobbi http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/spiny.gif

I will do better, I promise! :)
 
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