Question regarding deadlift "imbalance"?

[Braille]

I'm running into an issue doing deadlifts. I'm hoping that someone who's also had this challenge has discovered a way to overcome it. Not sure if I can explain it well, but I have had a bad upper back, neck, and shoulders for years - doctors, specialists, chiropractors, physical therapy... been there, done that. Strength training helps more than all of that, and my doctors agreed.

I got back into strength training about 3 months ago (after about a 2 year lapse). Everything was weak and progress has been slow. BUT I AM making progress - VERY uneven progress. I need to up the weight of my deadlifts, but I can barely keep my shoulders back in the proper position at the weight I'm currently lifting (which isn't enough to accomplish anything during the deadlifts). In other words, my shoulders want to roll forward (even with just 1 deadlift), and they are not strong enough to hold proper position/form if I increase the weight of my deadlift. I have been waiting over a month for my shoulders to "catch up", but it's not happening. Is there an alternative to the deadlift that will work the same muscles without relying on shoulder strength (posture) or is there a specific exercise that targets the shoulder muscles that are not strong enough to keep the shoulders back? Or is there a completely different strategy that I should be considering? Any advice, experiences, or ideas would be welcome. I'm tired of being "stuck" at the same weight with deadlifts that don't feel like they are accomplishing anything, but I know better than to do them with bad form.

 

[Debinmi]

Braille, I suggest you do a quick Google search for "best substitutes for deadlifts". Lots of options come up. Then you can choose the ones most appropriate for you depending on the muscle groups you want to focus on. Deadlits hit multiple muscle groups. (Kettlebell swings often come up too). In addition, focus on improving your shoulders and upper back muscles, especially the postural muscles. I found the Rear Delt Bonus in Xtrain (on one or both of the Leg dvds) to be very helpful in improving my postural muscles.

(Oh, and good for you to not sacrifice form over lifting heavier!)


ETA: I was just talking with some fitness friends ... if you want to "follow-along" to a Cathe dvd, sub in a one-legged deadlift. You don't need as much weight held there - that may solve the rounding issue.

 

[Lady Vol Fan]

Seated band rows for your mid back strength. Seated on the floor, Loop the band at your feet, legs extended, place a folded towel underneath your sit bones to help you keep your back straight ...and then row baby row! I alternate position of my hands to keep it interesting ..sometimes palms facing floor, facing ceiling, sometimes starting out facing floor then rotating in the pull til they are facing sides of my trunk. Make the move smooth...no jerking. Play with the counts too.

Remember, none of us home athletes need to get hung up on the weight we lift. Everyone has imbalances and needs to progress at their own pace. Working on areas that build up stability in your trunk will help your strength in the other exercises too!

Good for you for figuring it out and keep up the great work!

 

[FitSaxe]

Honestly, without watching you perform the move it is very difficult to help. There are many possible reasons explaining why your shoulders are rounding. One of them could be your anatomical skeleton. A professional trainer should be able to help and tell you how to fix and what is the culprit.

What I can say for sure, deadlifting with barbell is not for you without correcting the posture.

To correct posture, you do not weight. Stick exercices should help. This below is an example.
Strengthning core, stabilisers and your posterieur chain is important. Glutes and harmstring are part of your posterieur chain. All those meet at some point to keep your back straight for that nice upright posture. The
same ballet dancer posture. HTh

 

[Lady Vol Fan]

Also I thought of something else...try this cue form tip with your current weight and see if it helps you stabilize.
You may already do this but brace your core as if you were trying to close the space between your ribs and hip bones...brace like someone was gonna punch you in your midsection.. then grasp the barbell.

Then,
Think of the deadlift as a dead push...so instead of thinking of lifting the barbell, think of pushing the floor away while holding the barbell.

Maybe that will help you not round, too.

 

[Braille]

FixSaxe, I already know what's wrong with my back, neck, and shoulders - pretty much everything according to the experts. lol It's not "fixable" as it's degenerative. Damage has been sped up in those areas due to injuries suffered in a bad marriage. I've stayed away from the barbell for deadlifts. I also tend to use a curl bar instead of a barbell in other exercises, because the shorter bar makes me feel safer and feels more "balanced" in my hands. I used to be a member of a gym with a fitness instructor (many moons ago), and have followed Cathe for decades, so I'm confident that my form is correct. I am using proper form, I just won't sacrifice that form to go heavier on deadlifts, because I am not strong enough in my damaged areas to hold proper form in the shoulder and upper back. I will eventually get the muscles in those areas stronger, but that area will always be my weak spot. I just didn't want it hindering the progress that other parts of my body could be making.

 

[FitSaxe]

I am sorry to ear about the consequences of past relationship.

In your message you have mentioned the issue of rolled upper back. How could a form be good while the upper back is rolled forward. The form is not good either if the upper back is rounded. You can not safely lift light barbell or dumbbells performing deadlift without keeping upper back upright. This means the form is affected and your lower back is suffering.

Please find below a demonstration of an upright posture while doing deadlift. This is a proper form.

if it is happening just while lifting heavy, I suggest you lower the weight.HTH;

I used to be a member of a gym with a fitness instructor (many moons ago), and have followed Cathe for decades, so I'm confident that my form is correct. I am using proper form, I just won't sacrifice that form to go heavier on deadlifts, because I am not strong enough in my damaged areas to hold proper form in the shoulder and upper back

 

[Hazlady]

I had weak upper back muscles when I first started weightlifting and my shoulders would round forward. I also had tight chest muscles. I had to work on strengthening my upper back muscles and stretching my chest muscles. I found the band work and rear delts mentioned by Lady Vol Fan and Debinmi were useful, as well as one arm rows to get the rhomboids. The foam roller was useful for stretching my chest, lying on it length ways and doing angel wings while keeping the back of my hands on the floor. The Scorpion move also stretches the chest muscles. As far as alternatives go, you can see how you go with one legged deadlifts, or maybe hip thrusts with a barbell for the glutes as in STS 2.0, and supermans for lower back.

 

[Braille]

Lady Vol Fan,

I was afraid of that! lol Seated band rows are what I do for my at-home therapy when I get tired of doing the rows with the band looped over a doorknob in a closed door. It's part of my at-home physical therapy that I'm supposed to do for the rest of my life. It might be time to increase the band strength, but I'm really tired of doing them. I've been rowing for over a decade! lol

My trunk strength wasn't as bad off as the rest of my body when I got back into fitness. I'd been staying active, so my lower body and core were in decent shape and hadn't lost as much strength as I'd feared. Some of Cathe's core workouts have some challenging moves that use muscles in a way that I hadn't been doing though... so, I was a big baby about my core workouts when I got back into them. lol It took me awhile to get where I could push through that "burn" again. lol I can't do more than 10 pikes without getting sloppy, so I have to take breaks. Everything else, though... I can do - I still whine during my ab workouts though, so my son has to say "suck it up buttercup". lol I made him my official coach so he wouldn't be bored while I work out. He takes his job very seriously. lol

 

[Braille]

Fit Saxe, yes... that's the way I do them with my current weight. My shoulders aren't strong enough to stay back if I lift heavier. So, I have been doing the exercise with 10 lb. dumbbells. (started out with 8 lb), because my shoulders will roll forward and I won't use improper form. I was only asking if people had found an alternative to the deadlift that would allow me to use heavier weights. I have no intention of doing ANY exercise with improper form. Before I stopped working out for two years... I'd worked out my entire life. I'm a stickler for form. It's why I asked my question. I want the benefits (especially bone density) of lifting heavier, but I didn't know how to do that with my shoulder issues. I've received some helpful ideas on this forum that I will try that will hit the problem from a couple of different angles - a plan to strengthen delts as well as seeing if I can go a bit heavier if I change to the one-legged deadlift.

 

[FitSaxe]

@Braille

Ok I see, just do what you can with good form. You can fix it. Try strengthning the entire posterior chain.
This could help you keep the upright posture. The rear dealt is part of posterior chain.
There are many muscles part of the posterior chain. Here is the list of all muscles part of your posterior chain. HTH

 

[Lannette]

FixSaxe, I already know what's wrong with my back, neck, and shoulders - pretty much everything according to the experts. lol It's not "fixable" as it's degenerative. Damage has been sped up in those areas due to injuries suffered in a bad marriage. I've stayed away from the barbell for deadlifts. I also tend to use a curl bar instead of a barbell in other exercises, because the shorter bar makes me feel safer and feels more "balanced" in my hands. I used to be a member of a gym with a fitness instructor (many moons ago), and have followed Cathe for decades, so I'm confident that my form is correct. I am using proper form, I just won't sacrifice that form to go heavier on deadlifts, because I am not strong enough in my damaged areas to hold proper form in the shoulder and upper back. I will eventually get the muscles in those areas stronger, but that area will always be my weak spot. I just didn't want it hindering the progress that other parts of my body could be making.

From what you’re describing, I have a similar issue. Mine springs from two previously ruptured discs in my lower neck. I’m actually doing well but my shoulders will always be my Achilles heel.

As an example, DH & I are doing a CTX UB split. Today I was thrilled to use 20 pound DBs for my back. Then thrilled again to use only 8 pounds for single arm overhead triceps presses. Huge disparity but my current reality.

I only used a 25 pound bar for deadlifts but there was a time when a wooden dowel was tough to control.

You will be able to see progress. That progress will most likely move at glacier speed. Best slow than a repeat injury, right? Yet so frustrating!

It’s great that you’re so knowledgeable and self aware. That helps you keep a momentum.

One thing that’s really helped me is band work to improve my back UB body strength. Pull-ups as you’d do them on Cathe’s Fit Tower, Pull-up bars or a Fluidity Barre where I pull to the top quickly and emphasize the eccentric lower have been very helpful. These types of exercises help me keep my shoulders and upper back where they need to be in forward leaning moves like dead lifts.

Do you have a mirror, even a cheap door mirror? If you watch your shoulders you’ll catch the minute fatigue begins setting in and can correct it.

Good luck and know that I hear and feel your frustration. I’ve read your posts and you’re doing so well. Keep up the good work!

 

[FitSaxe]

I'm a stickler for form. It's why I asked my question. I want the benefits (especially bone density) of lifting heavier, but I didn't know how to do that with my shoulder issues. I've received some helpful ideas on this forum that I will try that will hit the problem from a couple of different angles - a plan to strengthen delts as well as seeing if I can go a bit heavier if I change to the one-legged deadlift.

Performing one-legged deadlift still require an upright posture, you can look at video below. HTH. Strengthning each posterior chain muscle is the best long-term investment for future heavy weight.

 

[nickisteen]

FixSaxe, I already know what's wrong with my back, neck, and shoulders - pretty much everything according to the experts. lol It's not "fixable" as it's degenerative. Damage has been sped up in those areas due to injuries suffered in a bad marriage. I've stayed away from the barbell for deadlifts. I also tend to use a curl bar instead of a barbell in other exercises, because the shorter bar makes me feel safer and feels more "balanced" in my hands. I used to be a member of a gym with a fitness instructor (many moons ago), and have followed Cathe for decades, so I'm confident that my form is correct. I am using proper form, I just won't sacrifice that form to go heavier on deadlifts, because I am not strong enough in my damaged areas to hold proper form in the shoulder and upper back. I will eventually get the muscles in those areas stronger, but that area will always be my weak spot. I just didn't want it hindering the progress that other parts of my body could be making.

Listen to your body.

 

[Braille]

From what you’re describing, I have a similar issue. Mine springs from two previously ruptured discs in my lower neck. I’m actually doing well but my shoulders will always be my Achilles heel.

As an example, DH & I are doing a CTX UB split. Today I was thrilled to use 20 pound DBs for my back. Then thrilled again to use only 8 pounds for single arm overhead triceps presses. Huge disparity but my current reality.

I only used a 25 pound bar for deadlifts but there was a time when a wooden dowel was tough to control.

You will be able to see progress. That progress will most likely move at glacier speed. Best slow than a repeat injury, right? Yet so frustrating!

It’s great that you’re so knowledgeable and self aware. That helps you keep a momentum.

One thing that’s really helped me is band work to improve my back UB body strength. Pull-ups as you’d do them on Cathe’s Fit Tower, Pull-up bars or a Fluidity Barre where I pull to the top quickly and emphasize the eccentric lower have been very helpful. These types of exercises help me keep my shoulders and upper back where they need to be in forward leaning moves like dead lifts.

Do you have a mirror, even a cheap door mirror? If you watch your shoulders you’ll catch the minute fatigue begins setting in and can correct it.

Good luck and know that I hear and feel your frustration. I’ve read your posts and you’re doing so well. Keep up the good work!

Thank you. It sounds like you're doing great, and that motivates me. I do have 2 mirrors in my workout room, but they are not very big (lack of wall space, so I have to scooch into position to use them. I do it, though, because it assures me that I'm using good form. It's too easy to develop bad habits. I do quite a bit of band word, because I have at-home physical therapy that my P.T. and chiro told me that I need to do for the rest of my life. I have trouble doing pull ups on my pull-up bar, due to a tendon injury to my elbow, so the "down" part of the movement causes my elbow to get inflamed if I do more than 3 of them. Your suggest of doing them on the Fit Tower is a good one. Because that's at an angle... I'm wondering if I can do more or slow down a lot more for the downward movement part of the exercise. Now that you mention using the barre... I did Cathe's easy/intermediate barre workouts when I first started getting back into working out, and I think she had that exercise on one of those, and I don't remember it causing issues with my elbow. Thank you for the suggestion - it might help me get my upper back and back of the shoulders stronger without inflaming my elbow tendon. With the ideas everybody has given me, I'm hopeful that I can get strong enough in that area that it doesn't keep me from strengthening my healthy areas. I'm like you... my bad areas are permanent. They'll always be my achiles tendon, but I'm kind stubborn... not going to let it stop me. lol

 

[FitSaxe]

X

 

[Debinmi]

Thank you. It sounds like you're doing great, and that motivates me. I do have 2 mirrors in my workout room, but they are not very big (lack of wall space, so I have to scooch into position to use them. I do it, though, because it assures me that I'm using good form. It's too easy to develop bad habits. I do quite a bit of band word, because I have at-home physical therapy that my P.T. and chiro told me that I need to do for the rest of my life. I have trouble doing pull ups on my pull-up bar, due to a tendon injury to my elbow, so the "down" part of the movement causes my elbow to get inflamed if I do more than 3 of them. Your suggest of doing them on the Fit Tower is a good one. Because that's at an angle... I'm wondering if I can do more or slow down a lot more for the downward movement part of the exercise. Now that you mention using the barre... I did Cathe's easy/intermediate barre workouts when I first started getting back into working out, and I think she had that exercise on one of those, and I don't remember it causing issues with my elbow. Thank you for the suggestion - it might help me get my upper back and back of the shoulders stronger without inflaming my elbow tendon. With the ideas everybody has given me, I'm hopeful that I can get strong enough in that area that it doesn't keep me from strengthening my healthy areas. I'm like you... my bad areas are permanent. They'll always be my achiles tendon, but I'm kind stubborn... not going to let it stop me. lol

@Braille, there's some good postural band work on STS2.0 Parts: Back too. The face-pulls feel good. I usually do more than one set of the band work there. You might want to review some YouTube videos for proper form on facepulls as I don't think Csthe provides adequate instruction.

 

[FitSaxe]

Thank you. It sounds like you're doing great, and that motivates me. I do have 2 mirrors in my workout room, but they are not very big (lack of wall space, so I have to scooch into position to use them. I do it, though, because it assures me that I'm using good form. It's too easy to develop bad habits. I do quite a bit of band word, because I have at-home physical therapy that my P.T. and chiro told me that I need to do for the rest of my life. I have trouble doing pull ups on my pull-up bar, due to a tendon injury to my elbow, so the "down" part of the movement causes my elbow to get inflamed if I do more than 3 of them. Your suggest of doing them on the Fit Tower is a good one. Because that's at an angle... I'm wondering if I can do more or slow down a lot more for the downward movement part of the exercise. Now that you mention using the barre... I did Cathe's easy/intermediate barre workouts when I first started getting back into working out, and I think she had that exercise on one of those, and I don't remember it causing issues with my elbow. Thank you for the suggestion - it might help me get my upper back and back of the shoulders stronger without inflaming my elbow tendon. With the ideas everybody has given me, I'm hopeful that I can get strong enough in that area that it doesn't keep me from strengthening my healthy areas. I'm like you... my bad areas are permanent. They'll always be my achiles tendon, but I'm kind stubborn... not going to let it stop me. lol

Hi Braille,

Cathe did answer to various questions regarding original STS launch. I think her Q&A is still relevant and contain valuable information.
This one I am sharing will help you fixing some posterior chain muscles. Back and core. I will post more information to help you.

If you are keen on cycling with resistance, spinning with at least 20kg, this will target glute and core while keeping a flat back throughout the entire cycling movement. HTH

 

[Braille]

Hi Braille,

Cathe did answer to various regarding original STS launch. I think her Q&A is still relevant and contain valuable information.
This one I am sharing will help you fixing some posterior chain muscles. Back and core. I will post more information to help you.

If you are keen on cycling with resistance, spinning with at least 20kg, this will target glute and core while keeping a flat back throughout the entire cycling movement. HTH

I do not have a spin bike, but the video on Y's and T's with bands is helpful. I currently do rowing with bands as part of maintaining my back and Y, W, T position in a doorway (more of a stretch) as well as other exercises the P.T. gave me. Adding a few Ys and Ts with the band to the end of strength workouts would be beneficial. Thank you,

 

[Braille]

@Braille, there's some good postural band work on STS2.0 Parts: Back too. The face-pulls feel good. I usually do more than one set of the band work there. You might want to review some YouTube videos for proper form on facepulls as I don't think Csthe provides adequate instruction.

I've never done STS or STS2, because I'm not good at following a long-term designated workout routine, but I do own them. Except for the ab work, I haven't gotten into them and am not that familiar with them, so thank you for letting me know about the postural band work and where to find it on STS2. I'm familiar with face pulls (from being a member of a gym many years ago), and remember them well enough to think that that would activate the right area. It's been years since I've done them, and I didn't do them with a band (it was basically a pulley type system on a machine that one could do a variety of exercises on), so I will definitely take the time to look up a good instruction video first and start with "too light" of a band for practicing form. I like to get my body in the habit of using its muscle memory abilities on new moves before I add enough resistance to get the benefits from the exercise. I doubt the movement will "come back to me" naturally - it's been too long and they weren't something I did often, so I'm going to practice, practice, practice first. lol Thanks!