The Rehabilitation of Prisoners

LaughingWater

LaughingWater

Cathlete
A spin-off from the Manson thread: :)

The topics of rehabilitation, the death penalty and the justice system as-is is one that gives me great pause. I'd love to be able to settle in one particular camp, stick to it and not waver, but that's not me. I sit and ponder, I weigh pros and cons, I'm fair, I'm compassionate, I'm practical. Yet all those parts of me don't always mesh, you know? Not neatly anyway.

I've examined this issue on and off, especially after spending the last few years exploring the Buddhist path and attempting to apply its philosophy to my life. I'd never be so bold as to say I'm even close to having an answer, but I humbly submit my thoughts so far:

No doubt, the current system needs to change. Not too many would disagree with that.

Some feel rehab is a waste of time. I cannot subscribe to this, as few areas in life are black and white. I think there are definite cases where people can be placed back onto the right path and, if given the chance, can live their lives positively and contribute to society.

Some feel the death penalty should never be used. Again, I cannot get on board. I'd like to, as it would fall nicely into line with Buddhist teachings, and it would be so much easier to just say, "All life is worth something. Do no harm. Ever." But my fair and practical side protest. I honestly think that there is a percentage of the population that come into this life "broken." (I'm talking the hardcore criminals here...the ones that do unspeakable, senseless things = Manson, BTK, and Harvey family murders).

It is my opinion that if you can do such things, then there is something funky in your DNA, and no amount of rehab is going to help. In addition, a humane death might be a welcome release from your time on Earth here, since it's clear you cannot live peacefully with others. Why rot in jail (and here comes my practical side: take up space and tax dollars) ~ or worse, be released and allowed to do more damage ~ when you can perhaps start over? So many of us fear death, yet what if it's a return to home? Back to recharge, relearn, and maybe improve.

Just some brief, random thoughts on a warm, Wednesday afternoon (tried to keep it short anyway). I look forward to reading and considering your various opinions. :)
 
>I honestly think that there is a percentage of the population that come into this life "broken."

Just a brief word and then I will bow out. DH and I are both lawyers. He represents murderers on death row, but only takes their cases after trial is concluded and death penalty imposed, so he does appellate work.

Did you see the film Natural Born Killers? This film was based in part on the spree murderers of a man who has since been executed. DH represented him, who throughout everything maintained that worst thing that ever could have happened to him, and consequently all of society, was the action of a good samaritan. When he was but a few days old, his mom literally threw him in a trash can. He was rescued by a samaritan and subsequently placed in his g'ma's care and custody. No better than mama, g'ma began pimping out this little boy to her revolving door of boyfriends when he was about 3 years old. His entire life was torture and abuse by those who allegedly "loved" him or into whose trust and care the "proper authorites" placed him.

He then went on to do some brutal, horrific things, which I think presents an interesting twist on the whole nature vs. nurture discussion. Most of these brutal things had been done to him at one point or another.

Now, I spoke with him on several occasions, had very pleasant and insightful conversations with him when he would call my home looking for DH who may have been away. The first conversation really caught me off guard, but then, after I got over my initial shock of who I was talking to, we had several great conversations.

He also MADE, hand made BEAUTIFUL cards, gifts, and momentos for DH and me, as well as my oldest DD - which I'm sure I could probably get a fortune for on e-bay. And the sentiments he wrote in them were stunning. My point being that often there is a very fine line between the truly gifted, the truly insane, and the truly damaged beyond repair. And in that case, no standardized system anywhere can adequately address this very complicated issue.

Lorrie

ETA: sorry, I guess it wasn't really brief afterall.

www.picturetrail.com/lsass
 
Lorrie, it makes you wonder who he could have been had he not been abused as a child. Did he ever express his feelings about prison time vs the death penalty?

Just to clarify, "broken" to me is someone who had a relatively normal upbringing, yet the desire to torture and/or kill still surfaced. I believe the BTK killer and Jeff Dahmer fall into that category. I'm not sure any amount of therapy could have helped these two, but who knows.

I'm not really sure where to put those who, by no fault of their own, were abused and grew up to be violent.
 
With even a tiny chance that one innocent prisoner could be executed, I don't see any other option than suspending the entire practice for everyone.

However, my opinion on the act itself has changed over the years. I used to think, life is life, deciding to take it is not a decision reserved for us mortals. But I tend to think more practically these days, about the tax dollars and such, and I sort of think of humanity as a club. If you want to be here, play by the rules, if you don't, you don't get to play. My family and my loved ones have a right to not be victims of violent crime, and I think that right is far more important than the rights of violent criminals to be able to rape and murder. That said, a lot of abused and mentally ill people can't control what they do. There's no solution.
 
Interesting posts from you both! Lorrie, when I was in pre-law during undergrad I took a philosophy of law class--did you do anything like that? I ask b/c the main premise of the class was: what is the purpose of law? Is it for rehabilitation or retribution/deterrance?

I think it's still a question of nature vs. nurture. I too believe there are some people who cannot be rehabilitated. Basically just born evil. Then there are those who are products of their environment & become bad people b/c that's all they know.

For the first group, I honestly believe there is no point in spending taxpayer money keeping them alive in prison. They will never contribute anything positive to society and, if anything, they will only detract from it & inevitably end up hurting others.

For the second group, I believe rehabilitation is possible & they should not be subjected to the death penalty.

So the big question is: how do you figure out who's who? Exactly--it's impossible. As even though I do believe in the death penalty & think it has it's place, even if our system wasn't as flawed as it is right now, I just don't see how it could ever work.
 
Please forgive my ignorance...I thought NBK was loosely based on Charles Starkweather and Caril Ann Fugate (who has since been paroled).
 
I think the argument for saving tax dollars by giving someone the death penalty is moot, considering that the minute the death penalty is given, the appeals start --- and that can be a pricey and long process—and the tax payers foot the bill for that, too.

I also feel uncomfortable with the death penalty, especially since so many lifers and death-row prisoners are being released now that DNA evidence is proving that they are innocent of the crimes that put them in prison.

I wish that our jails and prisons would work to rehabilitate prisoners who have shorter sentences. It's a travesty that many of these people are held for years, yet released without receiving psychiatric evaluations or any type of therapy to deal with the many reasons they may be violent.

For those of you who looked at the tribute of my friends, there were pictures of the murderers. Since they are headshots you probably can't get the full effect their build. Well, both had been released from prison not long before their killing spree. From their appearance in local papers, they must have spent their entire time in prison weight lifting. It was shocking and frightening to see how muscular and strong they looked, knowing what they had just done. All that time (one was in for 10 years) and they let them build their bodies, but no one looked into what made them tick mentally and emotionally? Records indicated that neither had participated in any pyschiatric therapy, counseling, etc. while incarcerated, even though they had (together) put a guy in a coma during a mugging.

I don't know the answers. It needs to start before the prisons get them, but, if that doesn’t happen, shouldn’t our corrections system DO SOMETHING other than house them for a few years, before sending them out again?

Below is an excerpt from a local magazine article about that brings up some pretty good points, not about prisons, but maybe some things to think about:

For Kristin Hott, the brutality of what happened to her close friends the Harveys opened her eyes to a world of suffering that she discovered has many citizens. Hott teaches adult education classes in Gilpin Court, where her students often share similarly tragic stories. Before the Harvey tragedy, she would listen and offer compassion, but afterward, she understood the sisterhood of suffering.

Her husband, Johnny Hott, played a New Year’s Eve gig with Bryan Harvey the night before he was murdered, and he was questioned aggressively by detectives in the immediate aftermath. The tragedy affected the Hotts on many levels.

“I never knew how to connect to [the students] beyond listening to them,” Kristin Hott says. “When I went back to class in January, probably January 10, I realized that this was one of the most healing places I could be,” she says. “It crossed socioeconomic barriers.”

Eventually, Hott found a way to cope, if you can call it that, or at least put what happened into some context that keeps her from falling apart. Subduing the anger and pain may never be possible, but Hott kept reminding herself that even Dandridge and Gray were children once. They didn’t come into this world as murderers.

“I don’t believe in pure evil. If you think this is an unfortunate accident, then you haven’t learned anything at all,” Hott says. “If there is anything that we have learned, it’s that we have to pay more attention to how things get to that point.”

Hott, along with Heidi Abbott and Carter Carpin, all close friends of the Harveys, are launching a nonprofit, Not With These Hands. Its mission is to try to understand and address violence. www.notwiththesehands.org

“They were babies once — I would have taken care of them,” Hott says of Dandridge and Gray. “What happened to them along the way is not just their parents’ responsibility; it’s all of our responsibilities. We didn’t think that Gray and Dandridge were coming to that community that day, but they did. You know there is going to be a next time, so what are you doing to stop that?”
 
>Please forgive my ignorance...I thought NBK was loosely based
>on Charles Starkweather and Caril Ann Fugate (who has since
>been paroled).

Beavs, the BTK killer was found just a few years ago, so he's not associated with the Starkweather/Fugate crimes. That's surprising that she has been paroled. Didn't he get the chair?

BTK stands for beat, torture, kill or something like that. Disgusting isn't it? It was a shocking case cuz he was a seemingly nice churchgoing guy with a job and a family.
 
For the most part, I agree with you. No one should be a victim of a violent crime. This is not about the right of criminals to be able to rape and murder.

To me, this is not about the "rights" if a criminal, it really is about us as a society, what it says about us and what values we pass on to our kids.

As I said before, to me there is something fundamentally wrong with the assertion that it is moral and just to kill someone for his/her crimes and on the other hand proclaim that killing is wrong (which it IS).

I believe in rehabilitation but I also believe that there are people who cannot be rehabilitated and society needs to be protected from them. Life in prison without parole achieves just that, I have no problem having someone locked up for the rest of their lives.

I am not sure what to make of the comment "I think of humanity as a club", whereas I understand what you are saying and I agree to a point, it also scares me because this could easily be applied to other people who are "different". Who are we including in this club? Who gets to play? Who makes the judgement as to who is "worthy enough" to play in the sandbox?

Now, there have been some claims about not wasting tax dollars on convicted murderers. Whereas I am against the death penalty for other reasons, I certainly don't want the government to waste tax payers $$.

However, it has been proven that the monetary cost of capital punishment is higher than a life imprisonment sentence without parole.

In Washington State, at the trial level, death penalty cases the additional cost in death penalty cases is $470,000 more to the prosecution and defense over the cost of trying the same case as an aggravated murder without the death penalty and costs of $47,000 to $70,000 for court personnel.” (Final Report of the Death Penalty Subcommittee of the Committee on Public Defense, Washington State Bar Association, December 2006)

The cost of a death penalty case in Kansas is 70% more than the cost of a comparable non-death penalty case.
(December 2003 Survey by the Kansas Legislative Post Audit)

In Tennessee, death penalty trials cost an average of 48% more than the average cost of trials in which prosecutors seek life imprisonment.
(2004 Report from Tennessee Comptroller of the Treasury Office of Research)

The death penalty costs California $114 million per year beyond the cost of life without parole, or $250 million (one quarter of a BILLION dollars per execution.
(Rone Tempest, Los Angeles Times, March 6, 2005)

In Maryland death penalty cases cost 3 times more than non-death penalty cases, or $3 million for a single case.
(Urban Institute, The Cost of the Death Penalty in Maryland, March 2008)

Take into consideration the additional cost of the mandatory appeals process for death sentences which can span anywhere between 7 and 20 years plus the increased cost of housing a death row inmate due to solitary confinement and additional guards, it becomes pretty clear that this is a ridiculous waste of money.

I think the outrageous amount of money we are spending on the death penalty system means we are reducing resources for crime prevention, education, drug and substance abuse treatments and most importantly diverting funds that could be more effectively spent for meaningful victims' services.

Nothing we as a society can do will ever replace or bring back the victim(s) or comfort their families, even putting the perpetrator to death. In the meantime, the families and friends of victims will suffer through every appeal and delay, and they have to relive the murders and the loss of their loved one with EVERY appeal.

TeTe, ITA I am also worried about the fact that it has been proven that innocent people have been convicted and put on death row or even been executed. Whereas, some capital punishment proponents are dismissing this as a "minority occurance" if at all, and that the majority of people sentenced to death are guilty, I think ANY ONE innocent person who is executed by the government, is one too many, especially if there are other means to protect society from violent criminals and sociopaths. Our system is flawed and abolishing the death penalty and instead imposing life without parole can't fix all the injustices in court rooms across the nation. But at least we know that no innocent person will be executed.

Thanks for sharing the link, TeTe, that is an awesome website!!!
 
I wasn't talking about BTK. NBK was referring to the Natural Born Killers movie...and if Lorie was chatting on the phone with Charles Starkweather she has aged pretty flippin' great!
 
No, the NBK film was actually a compilation film for Hollywood. So they took parts of the murder "styles" from several different people and rolled them into one to for the Woody Harrolson character. It was a fictionalization, but based on real pieces/parts from some of the worst of the worst. That's why I said the movie was based in part on Alton. HTH.

BTW -- I have asked my DH if he might pop on a bit later and perhaps share some of his thoughts. He really is fascinating to listen to on this topic. (He was also named professor of the year for the last 2 years at the law school where he teaches, so I guess it's not just me who finds him this interesting. His students do as well.)

Lorrie

www.picturetrail.com/lsass
 
Oops my mistake. Since both have a "B" and a "K" I got a tad confused. So is NBK based on several people?
 
"I am not sure what to make of the comment "I think of humanity as a club", whereas I understand what you are saying and I agree to a point, it also scares me because this could easily be applied to other people who are "different". Who are we including in this club? Who gets to play? Who makes the judgement as to who is "worthy enough" to play in the sandbox?"

Don't read into it more than what's there. I said "humanity" as in all humans, regardless of physical, cultural, etc. attributes. Basically, we all have to live here on this one globe. So shall we make some rules? Let's say- you're allowed to live, you're allowed to have children, you're not allowed to murder and you're not allowed to murder anyone else's children. So if someone out of their own free will decides 'gee, I think I'll take someone's life today', I think it's fair for society as a whole to say that's not what we do in this treehouse, you're outta here. Like I said, I think of it as the right of the victim to live their life. That said, if I had to vote tomorrow, I'd vote against it for reasons of possible innocence and mental illness.
 
Lorrie, that's so sad. Knowing that people who commit horrific acts more often than not had horrific acts commited against them... What do you do? It's like the death penalty. I can't make up my mind about it. I work crazy hours and often end up winding down after work to American Justice, Forensic Files, Cold Case Files, City Confidential and, of course, every Law and Order show on tv. Watch enough of those shows and you see how fallible justice is, at every turn. Many times I've watched some true crime show where some guy has been robbed of 20 years of his life only to have DNA clear him of some rape/slaughter. And, even with irrefutable scientific evidence, the cops involved in the case STILL insist they got the right guy. They refused to accept that they were responsible for screwing this guy out of 20 years of his life. And what if that guy had been put to death?

But then, just when I conclude it's not for us to take a person's life, along comes some serial child molester/killer who admits to everything and I pull back again. I worked with a guy who was going through a divorce. He showed up at his estranged wife's house, with his two kids sleeping upstairs, and hung out with her, watching tv. He had really made her life a living Hell and, by all accounts, she was scared to death of him. But, she was trying to give just a little bit to placate his temper. So he hung out for a bit and left. Everything seemed okay and she went to bed. He came back within a half hour, doused the house with gasoline and set it on fire; killing his soon-to-be ex and his two children, all sleeping in their beds. He's doing life now but you have to wonder why it was okay that she had to live in fear every minute of her life because she crossed paths with him, never feeling like she could get away. Turns out, she was right. I often feel he should have gotten the death penalty because there was no doubt as to HIS guilt. I suppose if all the evidence is there and the accused admits it... But, even then, I'm not 100% okay with it. Maybe. I don't know, though. What I do know is I'm deeply bothered when some punk kid accidently kills a convenience store clerk during a botched robbery gets DEATH but a serial killer who commits the most gruesome pre-meditated acts gets LIFE, all because the punk kid lives in a death-penalty happy state. I know people hate when national government sticks its nose in but I really feel there need to be national standards or guidelines for sentencing. While I'm at it, why is there a statute of limitations on anything? Your rapist can't be convicted because you've missed the deadline so hey, get over it? Children who've been molested often keep quiet and the truth doesn't come out until they're adults. Ooop. Too late. Deal with it... I've thought a lot about why a person can't be tried for the same crime a second time when there's newly discovered hard evidence that he DID IT. You're familiar with the murder of Breanda Sue Shaeffer by Mel Ignato, and how the photos of the torture/murder were found after he was set free?
 
Good evening everyone,

I am not Lorrie but rather her DH (I shudder what other letters she may use to describe me as well).

I am happy to give you my (brief) thoughts on this area and about Alton and the other men (all men) I have represented or do represent. I am not an abolitionist just a lawyer for the damned. I can tell you that our hopes and theories of how our criminal justice system works simply are not true. We randomly select a few guys to run through a morass of legal proceedings for 7 - 15 years so that we can execute one of them. We select less than 2% of all murders for capital cases, get fewer death sentences and then never carry out 70% of those death sentences (as pointed out above at a tremendous financial as well as emotional/social cost). I am not a math guy but 30% of 2% seems to be pretty small.

Not one of my more than 30 guys has a "normal" upbringing. I have guys whose school records in the 5th grade say he will be dead or in prison by 18 but no one steps in to stop it. Others, like Alton, have unspeakable crimes and atrocities commited on them only to hear prosecutors argue that feeling sorry for him because of that does not mean we should not kill him for what he did (while accepting no responsibility for not protecting Alton the child).

What Alton did was terrible but isn't every murder terrible? But Alton was also very human. None of us are as great as our best deed or as bad as our worst. These men become frozen in amber seen only as the criminal who did this horrible thing but I have never met one who lost all vestiges of humanity. Alton's main concern near the end was not whether he would live or die but who was going to take care of a friend of his on the row. His friend is mentally retarded and needed someone to protect him and get him through the day. Alton was worried that he would be left alone and be taken advantage of by others (and not just other inmates).

One last thought, what does it say to the family of the victims when we seek to kill one defendant but not another - your loved one is worth less? The death penalty is a very blunt sword that rarely kills the fly we seek but causes so much other damage.

Mike
Lorrie

www.picturetrail.com/lsass
 
I just had to chime in. I've worked at a prison in San Diego for the past 20 years taking on various positions at the institution. For the majority of it all I say were people unwilling to rehabilitate. Inside the prison walls is worse than being on the steets. With all the drugs and racial tension between all ethnic groups I see no forms of rehabilitation taken place at all. I guess alot has to do with politics because there aren't enough programs to get the inmates involved in anything constructive. They lay in wait to put their next scheme into action. It's really sad. I didn't realize how screwed up our system really is.

In interviewing inmates I run into all kinds. I basically make an evaluation based on their life history as well as their criminal history and try to find ways to make them productive citizens once they parole. Some seem to want to chance and others are right back within a few days.

I really think a persons surroundings make a huge difference. Incidents that may have happened in the past or the type of people they tend to socialize with.

As far as the death penalty, based on some cases I've read, I'm all for the death penalty.
 
Mike,

thanks so much for taking the time to post this. It was very helpful to hear your perspective on that. I think you gave a lot of food for thought, things that I had never thought about.

I have great respect for the line of work you do, it can't be easy and I am sure it is very frustrating at times.

Thanks again!!!
 
Thanks Carola I will pass this along to him. I've always joked with him that I do land use and zoning work - you know -- how folks can and cannot use their land. So while he may be waiting by the phone at midnight to get that call from the US Supreme Court telling him if his guy will live or die, ME --- I do the stuff that people use everyday! HA! Yes, his line of work can be pretty intense to say the least.

Though evey now and again there is an interesting twist. I remember the day Alton was executed. It was pretty heavy. Dale, one of Michael's co-counsel came in from AZ to attend the execution. He was driving to the prison and said the whole drive down was re-playing what they coulda' shoulda' woulda' mighta' done differently. He was speeding through a small Ohio town and was pulled over.

The officer asked him if he knew why he was stopped. He said he was sure it was probably speeding, but he'd had no idea what his speed may have been as his mind was a thousand miles away. The officer asked where he was heading in such a hurry. Dale said there was an execution that day and he was on his way to the prison for it. The cop asked if he was a member of the media, to which Dale replied, "No, I'm one of the attorneys for the guy who is being executed." He said the cop's face just dropped -- he had literally no idea what to say. So he asked him to slow down and try to have a nice day. That story still gives me chills about the gravity of this whole issue - though maybe it's because I see it from a different perspective than many do. You can google Alton Coleman and see a lot about him (only guy ever to be on death row in 3 diff states, etc), but MY memory of him is one of fascinating, thought-provoking conversations and a beautiful, artistic spirit. That is SO far removed from the ugly truth of what he really was. (Also a reason that I have not seen and cannot bring myself to see NBK)

And regardless of whether I agree or disagree with the whole death penalty issue, I have more respect for my DH than you can imagine. It takes a special kind of person to "represent the damned" as he said.

(Laughing Water - I am SO SORRY to hijack your thread. Thank you for this conversation though!)

Lorrie

www.picturetrail.com/lsass
 
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