ROTATIONS and KNEES!!!!!!

C

CynDaVaz

Cathlete
Cathe, what would be the best type of rotation for me to use? I'll give you some background on my body type and health.

I know you have had knee surgery, so I wonder if you have the same problems I have. But maybe not, because my knee problems were genetic; my kneecaps would often pop out. I had surgery on both knees, and don't seem to have this problem that much anymore. It's been years since my kneecaps popped out, but there have been moments where they have come very close. At any rate, my knees can't take too much impact, and too much heavy leg work (i.e. -- long leg workouts at a time for too many times per week). I can run, do step, and high impact aerobics -- I just can't do it every day, or several times per week.

However, my PROBLEM is that my worst attribute are my legs -- I'm definitely a pear; I inherited from my grandmother saddlebags that I've had since puberty. I've acknowledged that I'll probably always have them, but I want them SMALLER.

The rotations that you submit on the website usually consist of working out 6 days per week. I can only do 5 days per week, and usually no more than 60-70 minutes each time. I cannot work out twice per day.

What is the most efficient type of workout I can do to tone down my legs? I've gone from trying mostly cardio, to every day leg workouts (lower body solution theory), to only weight work, but nothing has really seemed to make that much of a difference.

I am 5'2.75" -- I used to be an aerobics only exerciser (did do some FIRM about 12 years ago). Since I began lifting weights again 3 years ago, I GAINED 10 pounds and don't feel particularly comfortable at my current body weight. I used to be 105-110; after the birth of my 2nd child, I was around 115, but when I began using weights, I quickly shot up to around 125.

Is it hormones (I'm 32, and have noticed some cycle changes)? I don't really eat any differently than I did before I gained the 10 pounds -- is there any hope for me??? :(

I am sorry I've rambled on so much -- my primary reason for posting, was to get an idea from you on an efficient but effective 5 day per week rotation that would help me tone down my lower body. I understand if you cannot deal with this question; I'll appreciate any feedback from others.
 
I'm not Cathe, and I can't respond to your knee issue, but on gaining weight after starting to work out with weights, that's common, because muscle is denser than fat and weighs more. So, if you increase your muscle mass, you're quite likely to increase your weight. The real test is your clothes. Are you still in the same size? If so, I wouldn't worry about the weight. Just be proud of your muscles!
 
Hi -- thanks for writing! :)

Yes, I understand about the fact that muscle is heavier than fat, and "weighs" more. I wouldn't mind being the weight I am now, if I looked and felt more "toned".

I can wear some of my same sizes -- depending on the name brand, but on other items of clothing, I've increased a size (I realize that SOME of that is because I gave birth to my 2nd child normally, and my hips "spread"). Depending on name brand, I can wear anything from a 4 to an 8, but I'm mostly in the 6-8 range now, whereas before I began working out with weights 3 years ago, I was primarily in the 5-6 range.
 
Are you and I kindered spirits when it comes to knee issues? What you wrote about yours is EXACTLY what happened to mine. I have patello-femural syndrome where my knees have problems tracking, and, prior to having surgery to correct the problem, would frequently dislocate or pop out. NOT FUN!!! Since the surgeries (I had both knees done about 10 years ago) I haven't had a dislocation but at times have had the sensation of things feeling 'loose'. Here's what I do.

Times per week- I do usually work out 6 times per week because I can. I don't think there is anything wrong with 5 times per week, especially since you say that you are working out for about an hour. Especially if your knees are bothersome, I certainly wouldn't recommend working out more.

Types of workouts- I typically follow one of Cathe's rotations (currently I am doing the May rotation) so that I am usually not doing the same type of workout two days in a row. One day I might be doing a circuit type workout, another a purely weight workout, another a pure cardio workout. Both for my knees and for my weight maintenance efforts I prefer to keep things mixed up. But I rarely do a whole week of Cathe workouts just because my knees typically can't take it. So on some cardio days I will substitute a floor cardio for what is listed in the rotation. Or I will go with a video that I know is lower impact (usually by a different instructor). I have to constantly gauge where my body is and make decisions based on how I am feeling.

Modifications I make- When doing a step workout I don't go above 4 inches (so I use just the platform with no risers). That is most comfortable for my knees. I will also, if need be, modify high impact moves with low ones. For example, with power 7's, I will keep them all grounded or I will do 3 with a small jump and 4 grounded. I also mix in floor cardio routines. I rarely do step more than 2 times a week. There are some really good floor routines that I find give me a good workout while being gentler on my knees. With weight work I am trying to lift heavier so I can build up the muscles around the knee. But I never push myself so hard that I find myself in pain. I also may not go down as low (like in a squat or a lunge) if I am uncomfortable. So it is a fine line, and one I must constantly monitor, between working with a good weight to strengthen the area around the knee and avoiding putting too much stress of the joint.

So that's what I do. I hope that it helps you out in some way. I think that most important thing for me is, that while I love Cathe workouts, I have to incorporate other workouts that are lower in intensity to protect my knees.

Good luck!
 
Hi, Sabine -- thanks for writing! :)

WOW -- I think you are the ONLY other person I've encountered who has the same genetic problem that I do! I KNOW what you mean about the pain. The only way I can accurately describe the intensity of it to other people is to say that the only other pain worse was LABOR pain. It is the most extremely painful thing to have happen, and I remember it so well that I get queasy whenever I see that people have injured their knees, or if I hear about someone receiving a knee injury, because it reminds me of how it felt when my kneecaps popped out all the time.

First time it happened to me, I was 9 years old, and had sat down at the dining room table. When I turned around to swivel my lower body under the table, my kneecap popped out. That was the beginning of many years of painful dislocations. Each time they would pop out, I wouldn't be able to walk well for several days. Surgery has pretty much solved the problem, but there have been some moments where they have dislodged momentarily -- luckily, though, the pain and incapacitation afterwards hasn't been as intense. I had my surgeries just a little before you did -- my first one was in 1989; the other knee was operated on the next year, 1990.

Thanks for your post -- I must admit, I've been doing pretty much what you have discovered works for you and your knee situation. It's just so frustrating, because I WANT to work my legs harder (they are, as I said in my first post, my worst attribute), but I just can't do it. The knees simply don't always hold up for me, and it's the most aggravating thing! x(

Well, I think I've rambled on long enough now -- thanks again for writing . . !

P.S. -- Have you ever tried something like Glucosamine to help with knee pain?
 
For me, what was one the most frustrating things about this condition was that the times when my knees did dislocate seemed so random. I could spend an entire day waterskiing, but I shifted my weight while at work and my knee dislocates? The everyday uncertainty really hindered my wanting to be physically active. And I hear you about the queesiness! Hearing other people's knee stories or seeing an injury on TV makes my skin crawl.

My legs aren't my greatest attribute either so I totally understand your frustration with wanting to do the things to improve them and knowing that there are limitations that make it REALLY difficult. Not sure what can be done about it, other than to just do as much as can be done.

Yes, I take Glucosamine (have been for about 4 years. It works really well for me and I noticed a difference. I didn't realize how big a difference until I ran out a few months ago and tried to go without. That lasted about a week!

Take care,
 
Hi again!

I know what you mean about the randomness of the dislocations. VERY frustrating to deal with; I'm so glad it doesn't happen too much at all anymore . . .

I suppose you're right about just doing as much as I can do within my physical limitations . . . :( But, I shouldn't whine too much, there are others who have worse physical impairments; I am very lucky . . .

I've taken Glucosamine before, but haven't gotten any more since I finished the supply I had. I do believe that it helped me while I was using it, but I wasn't sure if it was my imagination (placebo effect). However, I have heard good things about Glucosamine; I just wonder if it's okay to take for an extended amount of time . . .?
 
I haven't read anything negative about taking glucosamine for an extended period of time. As I mentioned before, I have been taking it now for about 4 years straight (with the exception of that week or so when I thought I could do without) and have had no negative effects. If anything, because my joints feel better, I am able to commit much more to my exercise program and am feeling stronger and more fit than ever before.

Maybe we should start a weekly check in for those with bad or weak knees where we can share what we are doing, how we are modifying and/or substituting, and other tidbits that those with bad knees can appreciate. What do you think??
 
Hi CynDaVaz, you've talked a lot about your workout regimen but not your diet. I'm wondering if there's anything in your diet that needs revamping perhaps? Just a thought... If you're eating too few calories for the kinds of workouts that you do, your body might be holding on to the fat simply for self-preservation. I'm speaking from personal experience. I've noticed over the years that if I eat less but work out more, it takes me forever to see results and whatever result I see is very minimal. I also make sure to eat the right kinds of foods, e.g., lean chicken, fish, fruits and vegetables. Minimal starchy foods and all that... It's still hard though. I love to eat.:)

You also mentioned hormones. Are you on the pill? After I started taking pills I noticed that my body holds on to fat more stubbornly than before, especially around my waist.

To tone my legs, I've relied on Cathe's lower body weight workouts using the most challenging weight I can handle. I do this twice a week with at least two days between workouts. I also do step aerobics two to three times a week. I don't do step aerobics on the same day I do lower body weight training as it's too much for the lower body to handle in one day. I don't exercise twice a day either. I have sensitive knees so I keep my step between 4-6 inches, and on days when my knees seem extra-sensitive I either skip the step or keep the step but do away with the high-impact hops and jumps. I can still have an intense workout if I keep my range of motion wide. If I have to do weight work, I lower my weight to about half.

I've been taking glucosamine for three years now. I feel it has helped me a lot. But just as a precaution, I listen to my body all the time. Hope this helps.

Pinky
 
Hi Sabine and CyndaVaz,

Here another person who has patello-femural syndrome. It was so nice to read your experiences, I have never 'met' someone with the same problem. I had about 4-5 dislocations and there were very painful ! I also had surgery and now I am doing quite fine.

I have to watch out, however, especially with step. I wear knee braces, work on a 6 inch step and rarely do high impact moves. My lunges and squats don't go so deep in order to protect my knees. I mostly have step videos and now that I am working out more, I have some problems with finding substitutes for steps. What low impact videos can you guys recommend?

Do you also have the new body blast serie? And what about the high step? Do you use them? I am very reluctant about the high step. I tried to see how the height would feel by putting all my risers on one end and a box on the other end, and it felt like I got a lot of pressure on my knees.

And about the lunges and squats, do you use weights with that? I am also a bit reluctant to use high weights with those excersies.

I would love to hear from you guys!

BTW: Sabine are you from Holland originally? I'm from Venlo (Holland)

Bye,
Heleen
 
Hi Sabine and CyndaVaz,

Here another person who has patello-femural syndrome. It was so nice to read your experiences, I have never 'met' someone with the same problem. I had about 4-5 dislocations and there were very painful ! I also had surgery and now I am doing quite fine.

I have to watch out, however, especially with step. I wear knee braces, work on a 6 inch step and rarely do high impact moves. My lunges and squats don't go so deep in order to protect my knees. I mostly have step videos and now that I am working out more, I have some problems with finding substitutes for steps. What low impact videos can you guys recommend?

Do you also have the new body blast serie? And what about the high step? Do you use them? I am very reluctant about the high step. I tried to see how the height would feel by putting all my risers on one end and a box on the other end, and it felt like I got a lot of pressure on my knees.

And about the lunges and squats, do you use weights with that? I am also a bit reluctant to use high weights with those excersies.

I would love to hear from you guys!

BTW: Sabine are you from Holland originally? I'm from Venlo (Holland)

Bye,
Heleen
 
Hi, Heleen:

I am awed that I am not the only one who has suffered from this very PAINFUL problem. People always looked at me funny when I would try to explain my knee problem. I had so many dislocations (beginning from age 9 to about 18-20) that I lost count. When my kneecap would dislocate, it would pop right back into place -- did your dislocations occur that way, or would your kneecap stay out of joint until it was popped back? I am cringing right now just thinking about knee dislocations. One of the worst pains (besides labor) to ever experience, in my opinion.

I'm glad I had surgery, but I was informed by the doctor I would still probably have arthritis eventually in my knees, with or without surgery. Surgery probably only delayed the inevitable. Wonderful.

In answer to some of your questions -- I do use the high step, and I do have the Body Blast videos, but I haven't done any of the videos yet. I always have to be careful when I do lunges and the high step. Squats aren't too hard on me, but each time I execute a standing lower body move, I have to be VERY aware of my knees. I always have to focus on putting my weight weight in my HEELS, and not the ball of my foot. If I execute a movement incorrectly, I receive a shooting pain in my knee, reminding me that they didn't like what I just did!

I've been able to go as high as 35-40 pounds when using squats. I usually go lower (20-30 pounds) for lunges, since so much focus is on only one leg. I haven't been using much weight lately, because I'm doing the Slim in 6 and Slim Series programs by BeachBody. Those programs focus on low weight but higher repetition.

As far as low impact video recommendations -- I can't think of an excellent one right off the bat; there are plenty I'm sure. For myself, I find that one of the best low-impact exercises I can do (and still feel that I've gotten an excellent workout) is just fast walking on the treadmill. Good luck to you and your knees!

TO SABINE & HIPPAHIPS:
You mentioned that you've been using glucosamine for a few years now. I do feel that I had results when I used it for a couple of months. The only negative thing I've heard about glucosamine, is that it can cause your cholesterol levels to go up! I haven't researched this further, but that seems to be kind of a bummer. I do plan to begin again with the glucosamine, though. It's good to hear that after using it for years, you haven't had any problems . . .

Regarding my diet - I'm not sure if I'm consuming enough or too much. I don't eat till I'm stuffed, and I have cut back on my carbs. I used to only consume low-fat carbs (rice, pasta, etc.) when I was younger and only into aerobics. But back then, I was much lower in weight. After my 2nd child was born, I plateaued (sp?) at about 5-10 pounds heavier than my lightest weight of 105. Then in 2000 when I began using weights again (the FIRM), I gained another 10 pounds. Now I'm around 125, and at 5 feet and 2.75 inches, I'm not comfortable with 125. If I was cut like Cathe, I wouldn't mind being 125, but I'm not "cut". I think I bulked up too much with regular weight work, and I'm hoping that Slim in 6/Slim Series can help me.

Okay, I've rambled on too much, and I've gotta begin school with the kids --

Later, guys!
 
Hi CynDaVaz,

When I first read this email thread I got the chills from reading about your and Sabine's story. I remembered me of my own (painful) dislocations. With every dislocation my knee cap popped in place again, but the pain was terrible and I couldn't walk for about 2 days. I have had surgery on one knee (i had an iron 'pin' installed for about a year).

I never had really good medical guidance, so I know little about my condition. Only the name and that's why I was so surprised to read about it on Cathe's forum!

That's really bad that you will eventually end up with arthritis in your knees. Is that genetically determined? Should I also be worried about that and ask a doctor about this possibility?

I recently have sworn off lunges and squats all together, I don't want to take any risk. I just started to work out more (I used to work out 2-3 times a week) and I immediately have a lot of knee pain. I also did legs & glutes one time without modifications and that was really too much. I am now trying to do some more floor leg work like Karen Voight's Total body training pilates and I ordered a firm floor workout.

After reading your suggestion for lower impact workout, I am also interested in buying a treadmill. I haven't stumbled on one lower impact workout that is really low impact and that at the same time has enough of an intensity for me. Do you walk or run on your treadmill? And doesn't it give you any discomfort to your knees?

I also started to take glucosamine, after reading Sabine about it. I just use it 2 weeks now, so I can't tell any difference yet.

Bye!

Heleen
 
Hi, Heleen --

I know what you mean about the pain being so bad that you wouldn't walk for a couple of days. I was the same way; my knee would swell up, and I would hobble around for a few days, unable to walk.

I had surgery on my left knee (the worst one) in 1989, and on my right knee in 1990. Since surgery, I haven't had the same type of dislocations, but I have had some shaky moments from time to time. Now that I think back on it, I believe that I did have one acutal dislocation after surgery, but the difference between that one and the others, was that I didn't suffer so much afterwards. In other words, I was sore, but I could walk okay. I still have to be very careful, though. I've almost dislocated during exercise.

As far as the possibility for arthritis, I just remember the doctor telling me that if I didn't have surgery, I would get arthritis early in my life. After surgery, when I questioned him about arthritis again, he then indicated to me that I would still most likely have arthritis, just due to the operation itself. In other words, with or without surgery, it is probably going to happen. My knees do ache from time to time even now; I notice that they ache sometimes when the weather is rainy -- what a strange thing. But I hope that if I keep myself strong and healthy, that whatever happens, maybe I can deal with it okay . . .

You sound like you suffer more than I do; I can still do squats and lunges. I suppose that something like pilates would be a good alternative if I ever got to the point where standing leg work became too much to handle.

I love, love, love my treadmill! I think you would like a treadmill as well. I generally walk at a very fast pace, but I have run on the treadmill before. However, I cannot maintain any type of extended running regimen. Running always catches up to my knees afterwards, making it very painful to even walk. Oh well. I think that brisk walking is a wonderful form of aerobic exercise. You can even shake things up by doing interval walking, and that can definitely be a challenge. The great thing about a treadmill, is that it keeps you on the pace you need to be, and the walking surface isn't as hard as a paved road or concrete sidewalk.

The glucosamine will take a little while to get into your system; if I remember correctly, it took about 3-4 weeks before I felt that it was helping me. Plus, you need to make sure that you're getting enough . . isnt' the recommended dosage 1500, or something like that?

Take care!
 
Hi again -- I just noticed that I forgot to answer one of your questions pertaining to hormones.

I used to be on the pill, but I never had a problem mainting my weight during that time in my life. It's only been during the past couple of years that I feel like I've had a problem. Also, my cycles have become quite different, and my OB-GYN indicated to me that I am probably going through some hormonal changes (uncommon, but not unheard of, even at my age -- 32). I hope I don't go through early menopause!
 
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